Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

I actually somewhat agree with that. I mean the kick could not only demonstrate the power of the Genkidama, but it could mean Kefura was possibly suppressed and then powered up without warning. Either that, or like any Saiyan (Considering how both Kale and Caulifla got gradually grew more and more powerful) got more powerful in the middle of a battle then overpowered and knocked down Gokou.

Except in this case, the context IS Kelfa actually being equal to the Genki dama in raw power.

Well she's stated to rival the Genkidama as a Super Saiyan rather than straight up match it. Also that statement of Whis' shouldn't be seen not only as a comparison of power between Kefura and the Genkidama but also as a comparison in role/ability as well. Rival doesn't necessarily equate to match.

Whis: -「今度の発動の引き金はおそらくケフラさん」

Kondo no hatsudou no hikigane wa osoraku kefura-san
The trigger this time appears to have been Kefura

Beerus: -「奴の巨大な気が…」
Yatsu no kyoudai na ki ga...
Her gigantic Ki...

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」

Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefura's Ki, who rivaled the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Gokou to once again break through his limits.

Yes, thank you for that. Whis referring to Kefla's "Ki," definitely means her power matches the Genki. Also, as you alluded to, in role as well to awaken UI.

I feel like that's completely ignoring the context of what was happening in the fight. Goku got KO'd for two reasons that are actually important consider. A) He was, as was everyone else, taken by surprise by the attack, due to him believing his Kamehameha would have finished the fight, and B) He literally couldn't continue fighting, as he had already wasted his final efforts on a Kamehameha that had missed, he was pretty much defenceless, at that point.

Kefla was extra-ordinarily powerful, but I think only looking at the final results for the fight, without considering the actual context to why that happened, leads to people vastly over-estimating how powerful other characters really are.

The context matches the fights cause Goku couldn't keep up with Kefla's movements that is on his weakness. It still doesn't excuse Goku from getting one shotted back to base.
Kefla too was caught off guard by Goku earlier when he gut punched her. Yet his blow wasn't a deciding factor unlike Kefla's. Proving the superior.

[JazzMazz]

I actually somewhat agree with that. I mean the kick could not only demonstrate the power of the Genkidama, but it could mean Kefura was possibly suppressed and then powered up without warning. Either that, or like any Saiyan (Considering how both Kale and Caulifla got gradually grew more and more powerful) got more powerful in the middle of a battle then overpowered and knocked down Gokou.

Except in this case, the context IS Kelfa actually being equal to the Genki dama in raw power.

Well she's stated to rival the Genkidama as a Super Saiyan rather than straight up match it. Also that statement of Whis' shouldn't be seen not only as a comparison of power between Kefura and the Genkidama but also as a comparison in role/ability as well. Rival doesn't necessarily equate to match.

Whis: -「今度の発動の引き金はおそらくケフラさん」

Kondo no hatsudou no hikigane wa osoraku kefura-san
The trigger this time appears to have been Kefura

Beerus: -「奴の巨大な気が…」
Yatsu no kyoudai na ki ga...
Her gigantic Ki...

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」

Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefura's Ki, who rivaled the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Gokou to once again break through his limits.

Yes, thank you for that. Whis referring to Kefla's "Ki," definitely means her power matches the Genki. Also, as you alluded to, in role as well to awaken UI.

I feel like that's completely ignoring the context of what was happening in the fight. Goku got KO'd for two reasons that are actually important consider. A) He was, as was everyone else, taken by surprise by the attack, due to him believing his Kamehameha would have finished the fight, and B) He literally couldn't continue fighting, as he had already wasted his final efforts on a Kamehameha that had missed, he was pretty much defenceless, at that point.

Kefla was extra-ordinarily powerful, but I think only looking at the final results for the fight, without considering the actual context to why that happened, leads to people vastly over-estimating how powerful other characters really are.

The context matches the fights cause Goku couldn't keep up with Kefla's movements that is on his weakness. It still doesn't excuse Goku from getting one shotted back to base.
Kefla too was caught off guard by Goku earlier when he gut punched her. Yet his blow wasn't a deciding factor unlike Kefla's. Proving the superior.

Yeah, but there is a key different between why Goku was immediately knocked out, and why Kefla had little trouble continuing. Goku was rushing the fight and wasted even before Kefla had delivered that final blow, while Kefla, was still more than capable of continuing. Goku, physically couldn't continue the fight past that Kamehameha. Goku couldn't keep up with Kefla's movements, because he was already done at that point, and he was taken unawares.

Also, you keep on saying that Kefla being able to get behind Goku proves her immediate superiority, however, I think your neglecting the fact that people of similar and even lower levels can still use their speed to get behind a foe whose stronger than them in order to take him unawares, something which occurred most notably in SSB Goku's bout with Golden Freeza in Super.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Yeah, but there is a key different between why Goku was immediately knocked out, and why Kefla had little trouble continuing. Goku was rushing the fight and wasted even before Kefla had delivered that final blow, while Kefla, was still more than capable of continuing. Goku, physically couldn't continue the fight past that Kamehameha. Goku couldn't keep up with Kefla's movements, because he was already done at that point, and he was taken unawares.

Also, you keep on saying that Kefla being able to get behind Goku proves her immediate superiority, however, I think your neglecting the fact that people of similar and even lower levels can still use their speed to get behind a foe whose stronger than them in order to take him unawares, something which occurred most notably in SSB Goku's bout with Golden Freeza in Super.

Not to mention that, while Kefla is fighting Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, Whis notes her impressive vigour, even though it wasn't the reason why Goku couldn't easily defeat even with this power surpassing SSB.

She keeps on trucking despite taking numerous solid if weak-weighted blows, and it stands to reason that she could take a heavy blow or two.

[Miracles]

Yeah, but there is a key different between why Goku was immediately knocked out, and why Kefla had little trouble continuing. Goku was rushing the fight and wasted even before Kefla had delivered that final blow, while Kefla, was still more than capable of continuing. Goku, physically couldn't continue the fight past that Kamehameha. Goku couldn't keep up with Kefla's movements, because he was already done at that point, and he was taken unawares.

Also, you keep on saying that Kefla being able to get behind Goku proves her immediate superiority, however, I think your neglecting the fact that people of similar and even lower levels can still use their speed to get behind a foe whose stronger than them in order to take him unawares, something which occurred most notably in SSB Goku's bout with Golden Freeza in Super.

Except those of lower levels can not ONE Hit KO stronger beings into base mode. Kefla did, who was stronger, not just faster.
BTW, the bold was never stated in the show. Goku fired his Kamehameha stating the attack Kefla used "won't work anymore."
No sign of him losing his KK Blue aura at all, proof he could of continued to fight.

[JazzMazz]

Yeah, but there is a key different between why Goku was immediately knocked out, and why Kefla had little trouble continuing. Goku was rushing the fight and wasted even before Kefla had delivered that final blow, while Kefla, was still more than capable of continuing. Goku, physically couldn't continue the fight past that Kamehameha. Goku couldn't keep up with Kefla's movements, because he was already done at that point, and he was taken unawares.

Also, you keep on saying that Kefla being able to get behind Goku proves her immediate superiority, however, I think your neglecting the fact that people of similar and even lower levels can still use their speed to get behind a foe whose stronger than them in order to take him unawares, something which occurred most notably in SSB Goku's bout with Golden Freeza in Super.

Except those of lower levels can not ONE Hit KO stronger beings into base mode. Kefla did, who was stronger, not just faster.
BTW, the bold was never stated in the show. Goku fired his Kamehameha statin the attack Kefla used "won't work anymore."
No sign of him losing his KK Blue aura at all which is a sign he could of continued to fight.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
I'll say this, Kefla is stronger than Blue Goku, right off, however, I think the majority of the confusion around if she is really more powerful than Kaio ken Blue stems from these lines, which clearly spells out, that Goku physically can't continue fighting in Kaio Ken anymore, and has to finish the fight in the very next attack, an attack in which he missed.

I'll re-clarify, since my initial statement was wrong, he couldn't continue fighting Kefla in Blue Kaio-Ken, the level required to beat Kefla at, any longer, after he fired that Kamehameha. That was what was clearly spelt out to us in the show. Thus when I say, he couldn't continue fighting, or wasn't fast enough to dodge, and was taken by surprise(as indicated by him saying "NANI"), I'm saying that because Beerus stated that Goku would have to gamble on finishing the fight in a single blow. Which as he failed to do, immediately suggests that past that point he wouldn't have been able to fight back.

[Bullza]

There was also Piccolo's comment about how Kefla was stronger than Goku before but if he came out with more power...

Then they did show Goku doing a large power up while in Ultra Instinct.

I still think it goes Ultra Instinct Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Super Saiyan Kefla > Blue Kaioken x20 Goku.

[PFM18]

I still think it goes Ultra Instinct Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Super Saiyan Kefla > Blue Kaioken x20 Goku.

Yeah but isn't that kind of obvious?

[Analytic]

If Cyborg 35 had actually happened in the ToP, how strong do you think they'd be? Stronger than any form of Kafla?

[Hugo Boss]

I still think it goes Ultra Instinct Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Super Saiyan Kefla > Blue Kaioken x20 Goku.

Yeah but isn't that kind of obvious?

No, because Piccolo’s line is vague. For some reason, people interpreted that to mean a tired Goku is stronger than his first usage of Ultra Instinct.

[Miracles]

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
I'll say this, Kefla is stronger than Blue Goku, right off, however, I think the majority of the confusion around if she is really more powerful than Kaio ken Blue stems from these lines, which clearly spells out, that Goku physically can't continue fighting in Kaio Ken anymore, and has to finish the fight in the very next attack, an attack in which he missed.

I'll re-clarify, since my initial statement was wrong, he couldn't continue fighting Kefla in Blue Kaio-Ken, the level required to beat Kefla at, any longer, after he fired that Kamehameha. That was what was clearly spelt out to us in the show. Thus when I say, he couldn't continue fighting, or wasn't fast enough to dodge, and was taken by surprise(as indicated by him saying "NANI"), I'm saying that because Beerus stated that Goku would have to gamble on finishing the fight in a single blow. Which as he failed to do, immediately suggests that past that point he wouldn't have been able to fight back.

DURING that "next shot;" while in KK Blue Kamehameha, Kefla sped behind Goku and killed. You seem to be forgetting, Kefla pwned Goku all in the phase of KK Blue.

[Marlowe89]

Yeah but isn't that kind of obvious?

Not at all. Vados wasn't even confident that Super Saiyan Kefla could take Super Saiyan Blue Goku, while Champa repeatedly implied that it was fine specifically because Goku was tired. Then there's these cards which may throw a wrench into things. I think that people are justified in believing the order that Bullza outlined since that's what Whis seemed to (vaguely) imply, but it's still very much open for debate.

The show also doesn't exactly have a great track record of being clear with its scaling in the first place, so there's that much to consider as well.

[JazzMazz]

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
I'll say this, Kefla is stronger than Blue Goku, right off, however, I think the majority of the confusion around if she is really more powerful than Kaio ken Blue stems from these lines, which clearly spells out, that Goku physically can't continue fighting in Kaio Ken anymore, and has to finish the fight in the very next attack, an attack in which he missed.

I'll re-clarify, since my initial statement was wrong, he couldn't continue fighting Kefla in Blue Kaio-Ken, the level required to beat Kefla at, any longer, after he fired that Kamehameha. That was what was clearly spelt out to us in the show. Thus when I say, he couldn't continue fighting, or wasn't fast enough to dodge, and was taken by surprise(as indicated by him saying "NANI"), I'm saying that because Beerus stated that Goku would have to gamble on finishing the fight in a single blow. Which as he failed to do, immediately suggests that past that point he wouldn't have been able to fight back.

DURING that "next shot;" while in KK Blue Kamehameha, Kefla sped behind Goku and killed. You seem to be forgetting, Kefla pwned Goku all in the phase of KK Blue.

Again, he was taken by surprise, recieved a hard attack, and was already completely out of energy. Kefla was an opponent that Goku had to take seriously, however, due to stamina constraints, he rushed the fight and not only wasted all his energy in a futile attack, but also got hit from behind at the same time. Saying that Kefla pwned Goku, proving she was far superior, would be like saying since Majin Vegeta knocked out SS2 Goku with a blow from the back, that he was loads more powerful than Goku at the time. Not the same circumstances sure, but at the very least they're comparable.

[Miracles]

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
I'll say this, Kefla is stronger than Blue Goku, right off, however, I think the majority of the confusion around if she is really more powerful than Kaio ken Blue stems from these lines, which clearly spells out, that Goku physically can't continue fighting in Kaio Ken anymore, and has to finish the fight in the very next attack, an attack in which he missed.

I'll re-clarify, since my initial statement was wrong, he couldn't continue fighting Kefla in Blue Kaio-Ken, the level required to beat Kefla at, any longer, after he fired that Kamehameha. That was what was clearly spelt out to us in the show. Thus when I say, he couldn't continue fighting, or wasn't fast enough to dodge, and was taken by surprise(as indicated by him saying "NANI"), I'm saying that because Beerus stated that Goku would have to gamble on finishing the fight in a single blow. Which as he failed to do, immediately suggests that past that point he wouldn't have been able to fight back.

DURING that "next shot;" while in KK Blue Kamehameha, Kefla sped behind Goku and killed. You seem to be forgetting, Kefla pwned Goku all in the phase of KK Blue.

Again, he was taken by surprise, recieved a hard attack, and was already completely out of energy. Kefla was an opponent that Goku had to take seriously, however, due to stamina constraints, he rushed the fight and not only wasted all his energy in a futile attack, but also got hit from behind at the same time. Saying that Kefla pwned Goku, proving she was far superior, would be like saying since Majin Vegeta knocked out SS2 Goku with a blow from the back, that he was loads more powerful than Goku at the time. Not the same circumstances sure, but at the very least they're comparable.

Goku was only taken by surprise cause he couldn't keep up with Kefla's speed. This all happened WHILE in KKBlue.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku was only taken by surprise cause he couldn't keep up with Kefla's speed.

Not really. If that was the case Kefla wouldn’t seize for the moment Goku is using his kamehameha. Either way, Goku’s energy was falling rapidly due to kaioken combined with Blue and low stamina.

[Bullza]

So according to the cards, Ultimate Gohan is not on the same level as Super Saiyan God Goku. Which means the Universe 6 Namekians wouldn't be either.

Android 17 is not as high as Ultimate Gohan or Kale but appears to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Would people agree with that? Would anyone dispute that?

[Marlowe89]

So according to the cards, Ultimate Gohan is not on the same level as Super Saiyan God Goku. Which means the Universe 6 Namekians wouldn't be either.

Android 17 is not as high as Ultimate Gohan or Kale but appears to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Would people agree with that? Would anyone dispute that?

I'm sure a few people would dispute that, especially those who personally want Gohan and 17 to be God+ tier fighters for some reason.

I would agree with it. I've already presented my case for why I don't think they were intended to be as strong as some people have been arguing, so that's more or less where I've always had them, and to me it's no coincidence that the manga sort of implied the same thing with 17 in particular. They do seem like they would be closer to Kale's range if anything, with Gohan being the stronger of the two.

[SayianBeyondGod]

There was also Piccolo's comment about how Kefla was stronger than Goku before but if he came out with more power...

Then they did show Goku doing a large power up while in Ultra Instinct.

I still think it goes Ultra Instinct Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Super Saiyan Kefla > Blue Kaioken x20 Goku.

That contradictve to the fact Goku in blue had Vados concern for Kefla and with kaioken he was overpowering her until he ran out of stamina . I honestly doubt he could go x20 kaioken due to still being fatguie and was mostly likely just x10 or less. If we're going by Goku at full power with the zenkai boost then he would easily be more powerful than even SSJ2 Kefla, due to the fact him and Vegeta could push a stronger Jiren and was said to have sharper attacks.

[SayianBeyondGod]

I think early Blue Evolution Vegeta even prior episode 126 is stronger than UI Omen at it's 2 first stages and with the gap being more big with Ssj2 Kefla.

Suppressed Jiren was hitting Goku with the strongest attacks Goku had felt and Blue Vegeta claiming Jiren having the strongest kicked he had felt even after watch Goku fight Kefla. We later have Blue Evolution pushing a stronger Jiren with his ki blasts forcing him to put effort defending himself and igniting jiren to power up more later. This Vegeta would far surpass both two UI omen stages until overpowered by Toppo until getting another Zenkai. Even when powered up much more a punch from a fatigue Vegeta surprised Jiren giving him praise.

Another thing I want to note is that I think Ui Goku from episode 110 is stronger than 116 due to the former having the spirit bomb power up.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Well yes. Hell even the first Ultra Instinct Omen Gokou from Super episode 110 likely rivals the Genkidama as well. Then later on in the Tournament of Power, Super Saiyan Blue Gokou and Vegeta receive Zenkai Boosts from fighting Jiren as they're able to push him to use more power whereas Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20, and the first Ultra Instinct Omen couldn't push Jiren to use so much power. And yet there are still people who don't take into account that Gokou and Vegeta have gotten stronger due to them fighting Jiren and receiving Zenkai Boosts .

So yes both Super Saiyan Kefura and Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken definitely rival the Genkidama from Super episode 109.

This scenario it doesn't considering Goku hasn't completely recovered yet and is still fatigue, hence he wouldn't be much stronger. There's also the fact that the affects of Zenkais occurred after the fight with Kefla since that's when Goku faced Jiren again and It's unlikely Goku could go x20 against Kefla. I mean there wasn't statements at the time indicating Goky got stronger expect with Vados and Champa implying the opposite in which Kefla is taking advantage of.

Kefla took a clean hit in the gut from Goku and kept pushing. Goku took a clean hit from Kefla and got ONE shotted KO'd out of Blue. That demonstrates the power of Genki dama.

Actually SSBKK Goku was overpowering Kefla while notably making her arm go numb and being too fast for her to react. Even Roshi said Kefla was beyond her limits and Whis claiming her Saiyan Blood is what's driving her left. The fact she was being balantly overpowered to one shotting him with a kick is contradictive and would as well imply SSBKK fatguie is spirit bomb level with Blue if at full power prior to zenkais too if Vados statement is credible. Despite that Beerus already made it blatant that Goku using SSBKK wasn't a good idea for his current state and later claiming Goku needs to finish it off with a kamekameka implying he's going to be vulnerable afterwards which was why Kefla was able to get the upper hand. So to put simple, Kefla practically KO Goku due to him being more much weaker.

Possible evidence to my argument to Goku SSBKK at the time being above SSJ Kefla would be Picoolo statement of SSJ2 Kefla surpassing Goku previously level which is most likely SSBKK. While Picoolo statement was a bit vague in Japanese it's implied to be more recent or earlier, making more sense for it to be SSBKK Goku since it was late in the prior episode hence being less than a minute gap with first UI omen being 6 episodes before in which is around 12 minutes.

Except in this case, the context IS Kelfa actually being equal to the Genki dama in raw power.

Whis: "The trigger that set it off this time was probably Kelfa."
Beerus: "Her massive energy."
Whis: "Yes."

Yes it was due to her massive energy that trigger the form but it's doesn't mean she needed the same power to rival the genkidama to break Goku's limit. Remember she kicked a weaken Goku whom may not be at x20 with his staiama issues compared to Jiren pushed the Genkidama against Goku whom was full power SSBKKx20, surely the former wouldn't require the same power to push Goku. Yes both Genkidama and Kefla used raw power to break Goku limit's but what Whis is comparing the affects of both raw power rather than them being literally equal in power, hence why he later say's "stimulus" which is defined as a reactionary response.

Quoting Whis:

"I presume Kefura's Ki, who rivaled the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku to once again break through his limits."

I mean prior to the tournament of power Blue Goku was said to rival the Gods in power even though he's doesn't exactly match their power. This context isn't too far, so the fact raw power in mention doesnt mean they're on pair in actual raw power.

[Rally 07]

This scenario it doesn't considering Goku hasn't completely recovered yet and is still fatigue, hence he wouldn't be much stronger.

Well just because a character has low stamina doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be stronger. For example, Super Saiyan Gokou vs Freeza on Namek. Gokou was more than likely tired due to him fighting suppressed Final Form Freeza. Not to mention, Freeza was injured due to his tail being cut apart. Or have a good look at Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is quite literally Gokou with zero stamina. And Gokou has likely gotten stronger due to fighting Jiren and having to break his limits from Super episode 110. He likely got a Zenkai Boost from that as he was beaten up by Jiren; not to mention he had to essentially fight for his life against the Genkidama. It would make sense why he got stronger.