Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Rally 07]

So according to the cards, Ultimate Gohan is not on the same level as Super Saiyan God Goku. Which means the Universe 6 Namekians wouldn't be either.

Android 17 is not as high as Ultimate Gohan or Kale but appears to be above Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Would people agree with that? Would anyone dispute that?

I would disagree with the notion concerning Artificial Human No.17 and Ultimate Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

I mean prior to the tournament of power Blue Goku was said to rival the Gods in power even though he's doesn't exactly match their power. This context isn't too far, so the fact raw power in mention doesnt mean they're on pair in actual raw power.

That’s true. It’s very easy to reconcile what Whis said with Kefla’s being weaker than a fresh Goku. Of course, he went beyond the stamina issue, but this is part of the process of activating Ultra Instinct in his case.

[JazzMazz]

DURING that "next shot;" while in KK Blue Kamehameha, Kefla sped behind Goku and killed. You seem to be forgetting, Kefla pwned Goku all in the phase of KK Blue.

Again, he was taken by surprise, recieved a hard attack, and was already completely out of energy. Kefla was an opponent that Goku had to take seriously, however, due to stamina constraints, he rushed the fight and not only wasted all his energy in a futile attack, but also got hit from behind at the same time. Saying that Kefla pwned Goku, proving she was far superior, would be like saying since Majin Vegeta knocked out SS2 Goku with a blow from the back, that he was loads more powerful than Goku at the time. Not the same circumstances sure, but at the very least they're comparable.

Goku was only taken by surprise cause he couldn't keep up with Kefla's speed. This all happened WHILE in KKBlue.

I don't think this is going anywhere, because I don't think your willing to accept that Goku couldn't continue fighting in SSB KK, and that their were loads of special circumstances surrounding his knock-out(which is why I brought up the previous example of Majin Vegeta knocking out SS2 Goku).

You have your opinion, which I believe is wrong because I think the evidence to support it is really flimsy, and I have mine, which I have personally justified with what is actually happened and told to us.

Moving on, just to confirm, how powerful do people believe Goku's SS form was after he changed into it after absorbing SSG. Would people say its as strong as his SSG, or slightly weaker, due to Beerus beating Goku badly during that section of the fight, as well as questioning at points if Goku really did still possess the power of a God?

[Hugo Boss]

Moving on, just to confirm, how powerful do people believe Goku's SS form was after he changed into it after absorbing SSG. Would people say its as strong as his SSG, or slightly weaker, due to Beerus beating Goku badly during that section of the fight, as well as questioning at points if Goku really did still possess the power of a God?

We discussed this a lot a few months ago. It’s strongly suggested that Goku as a Super Saiyan was exactly as strong as SSG during the fight but apparently he couldn’t use the full extent of that power afterwards. It’s later implied he gained the ability to become a SSG without the help of the other Saiyans in the middle of his training with Whis.

[SayianBeyondGod]

This scenario it doesn't considering Goku hasn't completely recovered yet and is still fatigue, hence he wouldn't be much stronger.

Well just because a character has low stamina doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be stronger. For example, Super Saiyan Gokou vs Freeza on Namek. Gokou was more than likely tired due to him fighting suppressed Final Form Freeza. Not to mention, Freeza was injured due to his tail being cut apart. Or have a good look at Ultra Instinct. Ultra Instinct is quite literally Gokou with zero stamina. And Gokou has likely gotten stronger due to fighting Jiren and having to break his limits from Super episode 110. He likely got a Zenkai Boost from that as he was beaten up by Jiren; not to mention he had to essentially fight for his life against the Genkidama. It would make sense why he got stronger.

I'm not arguing that Goku didn't get a zenkai but Goku would need to would need to more so recover to near full strength in order to use his new strength. Most of the spectator still argued Goku having the disadvantage due to being still fatigue hence being weaker than before. If we use the namek saga as an example, Vegeta for example wasn't able to use his new found zenkai boost power until he was healed from dende. I also wouldn't use argument that Goku fighting a more powerful Jiren considering that after having his limits broken by Kefla so it requires a second possible zenkai boost.

[Rally 07]

If we use the namek saga as an example, Vegeta for example wasn't able to use his new found zenkai boost power until he was healed from dende.

Keep in mind Vegeta was injured.

[Miracles]

Not really. If that was the case Kefla wouldn’t seize for the moment Goku is using his kamehameha. Either way, Goku’s energy was falling rapidly due to kaioken combined with Blue and low stamina.

Goku had no choice to use KK Blue against Kefla as stated by Whis. He had to take that necessary risk. Also, Kefa zipping behind Goku without him noticing, due to Goku's best ONLY canceling out her two ki blast, SHOWS again how Goku KK Blue was always weaker than Kefla. Surprised by the ki blast distraction or the speed, It's a catch 22 for Goku here, he fails miserably.

Actually SSBKK Goku was overpowering Kefla while notably making her arm go numb and being too fast for her to react. Even Roshi said Kefla was beyond her limits and Whis claiming her Saiyan Blood is what's driving her left. The fact she was being balantly overpowered to one shotting him with a kick is contradictive and would as well imply SSBKK fatguie is spirit bomb level with Blue if at full power prior to zenkais too if Vados statement is credible. Despite that Beerus already made it blatant that Goku using SSBKK wasn't a good idea for his current state and later claiming Goku needs to finish it off with a kamekameka implying he's going to be vulnerable afterwards which was why Kefla was able to get the upper hand. So to put simple, Kefla practically KO Goku due to him being more much weaker.

Possible evidence to my argument to Goku SSBKK at the time being above SSJ Kefla would be Picoolo statement of SSJ2 Kefla surpassing Goku previously level which is most likely SSBKK. While Picoolo statement was a bit vague in Japanese it's implied to be more recent or earlier, making more sense for it to be SSBKK Goku since it was late in the prior episode hence being less than a minute gap with first UI omen being 6 episodes before in which is around 12 minutes.

Except Piccolo's statement was concerning FORMER UI Goku hence why he hoped SSJ2 Kefla could further incite CURRENT UI Goku to power up more to surpass her current state.
Also, Goku was not overpowering SSJ1 Kefla, after making her arms go numb, Kefla powered up even more in SSJ, which shows she was holding back and even told Goku after being gut punched she was "far from over." Both punch attacks didn't shift things in Goku's favor at all. Goku could land no decisive blow on her but when she hit Goku it ended the match.

Yes it was due to her massive energy that trigger the form but it's doesn't mean she needed the same power to rival the genkidama to break Goku's limit. Remember she kicked a weaken Goku whom may not be at x20 with his staiama issues compared to Jiren pushed the Genkidama against Goku whom was full power SSBKKx20, surely the former wouldn't require the same power to push Goku. Yes both Genkidama and Kefla used raw power to break Goku limit's but what Whis is comparing the affects of both raw power rather than them being literally equal in power, hence why he later say's "stimulus" which is defined as a reactionary response.

Quoting Whis:

"I presume Kefura's Ki, who rivaled the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku to once again break through his limits."

I mean prior to the tournament of power Blue Goku was said to rival the Gods in power even though he's doesn't exactly match their power. This context isn't too far, so the fact raw power in mention doesnt mean they're on pair in actual raw power.

Except in this case it was directly stated that Kelfa's SSJ1 energy rivals the Genki which triggered Goku. Goku being weakened by the Kaioken and not at full stamina has nothing to do with it. As stated and shown, Goku surpassed expectations to have recovered enough stamina to go Blue and to maintain KK through out their fight till the last Kamehameha and he failed. Kefla even held back on Goku hence why she was able to fire multiple Ki attacks at UI Goku while only firing a few at KK Blue Goku.

I don't think this is going anywhere, because I don't think your willing to accept that Goku couldn't continue fighting in SSB KK, and that their were loads of special circumstances surrounding his knock-out(which is why I brought up the previous example of Majin Vegeta knocking out SS2 Goku).

You have your opinion, which I believe is wrong because I think the evidence to support it is really flimsy, and I have mine, which I have personally justified with what is actually happened and told to us.

And you seem to be missing the only truth that matters here, Goku's best attack FAILING, the one where Beerus said he only had ONE shot on Kefla's two ki blasts is just another proof that he was always weaker than Kefla. No excuses for you here, his only shot where he could use KK Blue, The best the Kamehameha could do was only CANCEL her attack out while she can just continue to freely zip behind Goku and ONE shot him, the ONLY blow he took that entire match. Nothing Goku did to Kefla was DEFINITE, did nothing to tilt the battle in his favor. Now if Goku's blows were actually causing a full power SSJ1 Kefla injury that hinders her performance to fight, wearing her down and Goku's failing stamina caused him to not be able to damage her anymore THEN you guys got a point but that's never been the case here.

[PFM18]

Moving on, just to confirm, how powerful do people believe Goku's SS form was after he changed into it after absorbing SSG. Would people say its as strong as his SSG, or slightly weaker, due to Beerus beating Goku badly during that section of the fight, as well as questioning at points if Goku really did still possess the power of a God?

We discussed this a lot a few months ago. It’s strongly suggested that Goku as a Super Saiyan was exactly as strong as SSG during the fight but apparently he couldn’t use the full extent of that power afterwards. It’s later implied he gained the ability to become a SSG without the help of the other Saiyans in the middle of his training with Whis.

Theres nothing to imply he couldnt use the power afterwards. Not sure how you came to this conclusion

[Marlowe89]

Theres nothing to imply he couldnt use the power afterwards.

To repeat what Hugo Boss said, this was already discussed a few months ago. You should probably actually read these discussions before interjecting so you don't look uninformed.

There are several things throughout the anime suggesting that he couldn't use the power of a Super Saiyan God as an ordinary Super Saiyan at some point after BoG, including all the sub-God characters who were able to compete with him in that form, but there's direct confirmation of it as well: Goku was said to have reached the "level of the gods" only after transforming into Super Saiyan Blue during the anime's exhibition match of the US arc, which is the same term Beerus used to describe Super Saiyan God Goku's strength in the BoG arc. Moreover, the manga's exhibition match included that same exact line when Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan God directly.

Logically, this would have to mean that none of the golden forms possess the same level of power outlined in BoG. Goku's "absorption" of the form into his first Super Saiyan stage was either temporary or outright revised by the anime's writers for later arcs.

[wolflonnie]

Cards are interesting, but I don't think 17 is THAT weak in the anime. Else he wouldn't have damaged at all certain types of foes.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Except Piccolo's statement was concerning FORMER UI Goku hence why he hoped SSJ2 Kefla could further incite CURRENT UI Goku to power up more to surpass her current state.

As I said there more arguments to picoloo referring to SSBKK Goku considering the Japanese dialogue is implying it to be a much earlier level wheras former Ultra Instinct appeared much later with 6 episodes or 12 minutes. Then there's the fallout Vegeta claims Jiren had the strongest kick he felt even after watching Kefla many times yet later claim Jiren is more suppressed han when fighting UI Goku from episode 110. So it's evident Kefla doesn't surpassed the former UI Goku.

If you pay attention Gohan gives more context to Picoolo statement by asking if Goku is igniting Kefla which Picoolo agrees with, not the other way around. I also don't think Goku UI omen is anymore more powerful in raw power than 110 Goku due to not having the spirit bomb to power him.

Also, Goku was not overpowering SSJ1 Kefla, after making her arms go numb, Kefla powered up even more in SSJ, which shows she was holding back and even told Goku after being gut punched she was "far from over." Both punch attacks didn't shift things in Goku's favor at all. Goku could land no decisive blow on her but when she hit Goku it ended the match.

Actually we see Goku moving too fast for Kefla to react and then hitting her enough force to make her struggling to get up while saying it really hurts from just a single clean punch. The crowd reinforcing the fact the fight was going to Goku favour with Champa and Cabva being worried, Whis saying Kefla has only her Saiyan blood driving her and Roshi claiming Kefla is beyond her limits. The only times when things shifted is after Goku rushed his Kamekameka which missed with ki blast distraction and was surprised kicked after being more weaken considering even Beerus claim his next move would be his last since kaioken was draining him physically.

Except in this case it was directly stated that Kelfa's SSJ1 energy rivals the Genki which triggered Goku. Goku being weakened by the Kaioken and not at full stamina has nothing to do with it. As stated and shown, Goku surpassed expectations to have recovered enough stamina to go Blue and to maintain KK through out their fight till the last Kamehameha and he failed. Kefla even held back on Goku hence why she was able to fire multiple Ki attacks at UI Goku while only firing a few at KK Blue Goku.

So was Blue Goku with a hakaishin in power but it doesn't mean they in pair with raw power or were compared that way. Power can be compared more than one way like affects or type. You're neglecting the rest of the context in which say "stimulus" not that Kefla was actually as powerful as the genkidama. Again the fact Goku was weaken and still fatguie from the battle from Jiren, which means it's going to take less force to break his shell or deplete away his remaining energy. The fact he could go Blue or SSBKK doesn't mean he can use does forms at full capacity considering Vados shows concern for Blue against Kefla with Champa responding back by saying Goku is still fatguie and Beerus saying SSBKK shouldn't be used in Goku state with Goku only being able to use it over short. Unlike when he fought Jiren at longer periods with the form. Even in SSBKK Goku can suppress himself so much when fighting Gohan or bergamo whom aren't even blue tier. So it evident he doesn't need much stamina or ki to use these god forms.

[Bullza]

Kefla did at least see Ultra Instinct Goku speed behind her. Which was unlike Toppo and Dyspo.

[Hugo Boss]

Not really. If that was the case Kefla wouldn’t seize for the moment Goku is using his kamehameha. Either way, Goku’s energy was falling rapidly due to kaioken combined with Blue and low stamina.

Goku had no choice to use KK Blue against Kefla as stated by Whis. He had to take that necessary risk. Also, Kefa zipping behind Goku without him noticing, due to Goku's best ONLY canceling out her two ki blast, SHOWS again how Goku KK Blue was always weaker than Kefla. Surprised by the ki blast distraction or the speed, It's a catch 22 for Goku here, he fails miserably.

Because Goku was fighting in his strongest form with low stamina? You should actually see the whole fight before regurgitating the same arguments. SSB Goku was barely even with SS Kefla due to being tired and dragging that would mean losing more stamina. Champa was confident she could take SSB in that condition. Choice explained. In a direct fight, SSB Kaioken Goku, even tired, is clearly stronger than her. It took her two blows to understand that. Did she engage directly with him again? No, because that would be stupid. It’s a very simple and effective strategy to zip behind your opponent when he/she is using a charged move, which fits Kefla’s basic understanding of a fight. Goku being defeated by that just proves Beerus was right when he said Goku’s stamina wouldn’t handle more than one attack.

Theres nothing to imply he couldnt use the power afterwards. Not sure how you came to this conclusion.

I won’t go through this again. Marlowe89 summed up perfectly. You should consider this explained.

[Miracles]

Except Piccolo's statement was concerning FORMER UI Goku hence why he hoped SSJ2 Kefla could further incite CURRENT UI Goku to power up more to surpass her current state.

As I said there more arguments to picoloo referring to SSBKK Goku considering the Japanese dialogue is implying it to be a much earlier level wheras former Ultra Instinct appeared much later with 6 episodes or 12 minutes. Then there's the fallout Vegeta claims Jiren had the strongest kick he felt even after watching Kefla many times yet later claim Jiren is more suppressed han when fighting UI Goku from episode 110. So it's evident Kefla doesn't surpassed the former UI Goku.

If you pay attention Gohan gives more context to Picoolo statement by asking if Goku is igniting Kefla which Picoolo agrees with, not the other way around. I also don't think Goku UI omen is anymore more powerful in raw power than 110 Goku due to not having the spirit bomb to power him.

This does not match up with the story. Please see how the context of words and action match with the convo being about Kefla's comparison to former and current UI...

*UI Goku powers up THEN Kefla powers up*

Gohan: "Dad and Kefla.."
Piccolo: "What are they? If one powers up, the other is incited into increasing their power too."
Gohan: "You mean the change in dad [UI] is drawing out Kefla's power even more?"
Piccolo: "Yeah, Kefla is definitely growing, her power is unbelievable."
Piccolo: "This power...It might even surpass Son's earlier level!"
Gohan: "No way!"
[Here is the game changer right here]
Piccolo: "But if Kefla's power up could further draw out Son's power..."

The whole convo is about each Saiyan drawing out each other's power at this moment. Piccolo states Kefla has surpassed Son's earlier level [UI] because he then says BUT IF Kefla could draw Goku's power out even more...Meaning there is a chance for current Goku to surpass this Kefla.

Actually we see Goku moving too fast for Kefla to react and then hitting her enough force to make her struggling to get up while saying it really hurts from just a single clean punch. The crowd reinforcing the fact the fight was going to Goku favour with Champa and Cabva being worried, Whis saying Kefla has only her Saiyan blood driving her and Roshi claiming Kefla is beyond her limits. The only times when things shifted is after Goku rushed his Kamekameka which missed with ki blast distraction and was surprised kicked after being more weaken considering even Beerus claim his next move would be his last since kaioken was draining him physically.

Except in this case it was directly stated that Kelfa's SSJ1 energy rivals the Genki which triggered Goku. Goku being weakened by the Kaioken and not at full stamina has nothing to do with it. As stated and shown, Goku surpassed expectations to have recovered enough stamina to go Blue and to maintain KK through out their fight till the last Kamehameha and he failed. Kefla even held back on Goku hence why she was able to fire multiple Ki attacks at UI Goku while only firing a few at KK Blue Goku.

So was Blue Goku with a hakaishin in power but it doesn't mean they in pair with raw power or were compared that way. Power can be compared more than one way like affects or type. You're neglecting the rest of the context in which say "stimulus" not that Kefla was actually as powerful as the genkidama. Again the fact Goku was weaken and still fatguie from the battle from Jiren, which means it's going to take less force to break his shell or deplete away his remaining energy. The fact he could go Blue or SSBKK doesn't mean he can use does forms at full capacity considering Vados shows concern for Blue against Kefla with Champa responding back by saying Goku is still fatguie and Beerus saying SSBKK shouldn't be used in Goku state with Goku only being able to use it over short. Unlike when he fought Jiren at longer periods with the form. Even in SSBKK Goku can suppress himself so much when fighting Gohan or bergamo whom aren't even blue tier. So it evident he doesn't need much stamina or ki to use these god forms.

Your hakaishin comparison does not work because Kefla's power "rivaling the Genk idama" was specifically defined as her "massive energy." The story isn't talking anything else here.

Also, Goku punching Kefla after reappearing doesn't mean anything cause it didn't give Goku any favor in the fight. She got up and stated she was "far from over" and kept pushing. Goku never had the advantage in the fight. Kefla didn't want the fight to end cause she was trying to achieve Blue. Kefla held back against Goku as he couldn't handle a couple of her ki blasts yet she launched more at UI Goku.

Because Goku was fighting in his strongest form with low stamina? You should actually see the whole fight before regurgitating the same arguments. SSB Goku was barely even with SS Kefla due to being tired and dragging that would mean losing more stamina. Champa was confident she could take SSB in that condition. Choice explained. In a direct fight, SSB Kaioken Goku, even tired, is clearly stronger than her. It took her two blows to understand that. Did she engage directly with him again? No, because that would be stupid. It’s a very simple and effective strategy to zip behind your opponent when he/she is using a charged move, which fits Kefla’s basic understanding of a fight. Goku being defeated by that just proves Beerus was right when he said Goku’s stamina wouldn’t handle more than one attack.

How was SSJB KK Goku stronger than Kefla when he never had the advantage? He never had the fight in his favor? Everything he did was NEVER decisive...? Yet ONE BLOW from Kefla ended him. You seem to put so much emphasis on the low stamina yet it didn't make Goku look better cause Kefla was holding back while trying to achieve Blue and wanted Goku to continue to fight. Evidenced when she was sad when he was down for the count. Look how Kefla used more power against UI Goku with the Ki blasts... Goku was outclassed and the one hit KO showed so.

News flash...the low stamina was never referenced for Goku's reason's for being weaker or his loss to Kefla. But all the headcannon posters say so.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I rewatch the fight with goku SSB KK and super kefla, and i have to agree with miracles, kefla was never in any danger, and the hits goku landed werent serious at all to her. She just kept coming up like it was a walk in the park. One thing to rember is that comparisons in the tournament of power arent vauge in nature. When they say “x is on the level of y” thats what they actually mean, and not that the character is vaugely near that level. Heck, when we first heard of jirens true power in his bio, he was stated to “rival” the hakaishins just as kefla rivals the spirit bomb, and we sure as hell know jiren isnt just vaguely around hakaishin level.

To me its irrelavent wether keflas ssj form is as exactly as strong as the spirit bomb, as she then went ssj2, and powered up several times afterwards.

[SayianBeyondGod]

This does not match up with the story. Please see how the context of words and action match with the convo being about Kefla's comparison to former and current UI...

*UI Goku powers up THEN Kefla powers up*

Gohan: "Dad and Kefla.."
Piccolo: "What are they? If one powers up, the other is incited into increasing their power too."
Gohan: "You mean the change in dad [UI] is drawing out Kefla's power even more?"
Piccolo: "Yeah, Kefla is definitely growing, her power is unbelievable."
Piccolo: "This power...It might even surpass Son's earlier level!"
Gohan: "No way!"
[Here is the game changer right here]
Piccolo: "But if Kefla's power up could further draw out Son's power..."

The whole convo is about each Saiyan drawing out each other's power at this moment. Piccolo states Kefla has surpassed Son's earlier level [UI] because he then says BUT IF Kefla could draw Goku's power out even more...Meaning there is a chance for current Goku to surpass this Kefla.

Picoolo isn't trying to make an objective claim considering he's saying it as a possibility especially when he say's "if" as if the scenario was to go differently not what was directly happening. Your argument doesn't match with the story considering the fact Picoolo clearly claims 孫を超えてるかもしれん/"Might surpass Son [Goku]" with
先ほど implying earlier with SSBKK being more recent than UI. As I argued before in episode 122 Vegeta already called Jiren ki for being the strongest he felt even after watching Kefla, yet was more suppressed when facing UI Goku Omen, so it's contradictive to Kefla surpassing UI from episode 110. Even if Kefla was forcing Goku to power up, he's still suppressed and not a full power, considering he powered up less while saying "that's enough for me". So she wasn't pushing Goku to use full power, until later until he had the hang of things in which he started overwhelming her with attacks and her responding "impossible".

Your hakaishin comparison does not work because Kefla's power "rivaling the Genk idama" was specifically defined as her "massive energy." The story isn't talking anything else here.

It does considering like what you're describing with the genkidama rival statement, "power" was also mentioned in the statement with Blue Goku yet wasn't truly implying both comparison are matched in literal power. As you see from both statements power was mentioned to rival but not literally being on pair with each other as power can be compared in other ways such as type or resulting affects. You're also ignoring the rest of context of Whis statement as he also blatantly mentions "stimulus" which implies a reactionary response. The fact her energy was mention to be massive doesn't contradict the fact they forced Goku to break his shell as a response in the end.

Also, Goku punching Kefla after reappearing doesn't mean anything cause it didn't give Goku any favor in the fight. She got up and stated she was "far from over" and kept pushing. Goku never had the advantage in the fight. Kefla didn't want the fight to end cause she was trying to achieve Blue. Kefla held back against Goku as he couldn't handle a couple of her ki blasts yet she launched more at UI Goku.

You're repeating the same argument here. After punching her even she said it really hurt(showing siginficant damage from just a single punch) with he failing to react to him move already showing a siginficant speed gap. Clearly from the bench even U6 was worried about her losing after wittnessing that with Rohsi saying she's beyond her limit and with Whis saying her Saiyan blood is what's driving her left implying her mental will is what's holding her. So from all of this it's implied Kefla was already at her limit with Goku already showing advatange and gap in power/speed. I don't know why you're ignoring this obvious context. Nothing is implying she's holding back nor it was implied she was trying get Blue in that fight, if anything that statements from the episode say otherwise. She herself said Goku was a worthy opponent, which also indicate she was being pushed near her limits.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Kefla was far from being pushed to her limits. She wasnt in distress at anytime vs ssb kaioken goku. The fact that she had ssj2, and didnt show the need to use it against ssb kaioken goku says a lot.

[JazzMazz]

Kefla was far from being pushed to her limits. She wasnt in distress at anytime vs ssb kaioken goku. The fact that she had ssj2, and didnt show the need to use it against ssb kaioken goku says a lot.

Well as a SS, yes, she obviously clearly was. Literally everyone commented on how she was well past her limits in that state, and also because she very clearly had trouble keeping up with Goku in that state, unlike Goku's defeat, which there were various circumstances coming into play, Goku was clearly just physically outmatching her in that brief bout.

[Hugo Boss]

Because Goku was fighting in his strongest form with low stamina? You should actually see the whole fight before regurgitating the same arguments. SSB Goku was barely even with SS Kefla due to being tired and dragging that would mean losing more stamina. Champa was confident she could take SSB in that condition. Choice explained. In a direct fight, SSB Kaioken Goku, even tired, is clearly stronger than her. It took her two blows to understand that. Did she engage directly with him again? No, because that would be stupid. It’s a very simple and effective strategy to zip behind your opponent when he/she is using a charged move, which fits Kefla’s basic understanding of a fight. Goku being defeated by that just proves Beerus was right when he said Goku’s stamina wouldn’t handle more than one attack.

How was SSJB KK Goku stronger than Kefla when he never had the advantage? He never had the fight in his favor? Everything he did was NEVER decisive...? Yet ONE BLOW from Kefla ended him. You seem to put so much emphasis on the low stamina yet it didn't make Goku look better cause Kefla was holding back while trying to achieve Blue and wanted Goku to continue to fight. Evidenced when she was sad when he was down for the count. Look how Kefla used more power against UI Goku with the Ki blasts... Goku was outclassed and the one hit KO showed so.

News flash...the low stamina was never referenced for Goku's reason's for being weaker or his loss to Kefla. But all the headcannon posters say so.

You have characters commenting vague reviews of the fight, which can be interpreted in two ways if you don’t have a context. But guess what, we have a context. Anyone who claims SSB Kaioken Goku wasn’t stronger than SS Kefla in that fight is either in denial or doesn’t understand basic notions of a fight. Goku’s problem is that kaioken gives a temporary advantage and backfires once the fight drags on. For reference, check what Vegeta said in the episode Goku reveals the ability to Hit. More importantly, it was confirmed by Beerus TWO times in the very episode Goku uses it. There is no headcannon here.

And did we just forget Kefla is one of the Saiyans that Vegeta commented that have improved in the middle of the fight? She wasn’t holding back, she powered up several times in response to the fight. You know, like a Saiyan.

[Miracles]

Picoolo isn't trying to make an objective claim considering he's saying it as a possibility especially when he say's "if" as if the scenario was to go differently not what was directly happening. with 先ほど implying earlier with SSBKK being more recent than UI. As I argued before in episode 122 Vegeta already called Jiren ki for being the strongest he felt even after watching Kefla, yet was more suppressed when facing UI Goku Omen, so it's contradictive to Kefla surpassing UI from episode 110. Even if Kefla was forcing Goku to power up, he's still suppressed and not a full power, considering he powered up less while saying "that's enough for me". So she wasn't pushing Goku to use full power, until later until he had the hang of things in which he started overwhelming her with attacks and her responding "impossible".

It does considering like what you're describing with the genkidama rival statement, "power" was also mentioned in the statement with Blue Goku yet wasn't truly implying both comparison are matched in literal power. As you see from both statements power was mentioned to rival but not literally being on pair with each other as power can be compared in other ways such as type or resulting affects. You're also ignoring the rest of context of Whis statement as he also blatantly mentions "stimulus" which implies a reactionary response. The fact her energy was mention to be massive doesn't contradict the fact they forced Goku to break his shell as a response in the end.

You're repeating the same argument here. After punching her even she said it really hurt(showing siginficant damage from just a single punch) with he failing to react to him move already showing a siginficant speed gap. Clearly from the bench even U6 was worried about her losing after wittnessing that with Rohsi saying she's beyond her limit and with Whis saying her Saiyan blood is what's driving her left implying her mental will is what's holding her. So from all of this it's implied Kefla was already at her limit with Goku already showing advatange and gap in power/speed. I don't know why you're ignoring this obvious context. Nothing is implying she's holding back nor it was implied she was trying get Blue in that fight, if anything that statements from the episode say otherwise. She herself said Goku was a worthy opponent, which also indicate she was being pushed near her limits.

A person can bump their elbow and be hurt for a moment and the pain goes away and they keep pushing. This is exactly what happened with Kefla. She received no damage to impair her. Goku's blows did nothing to change the outcome of the battle to his advantage. Kefla's one blow did by finishing Goku. Kefla's power was defined as her massive ENERGY riviling the energy of the Genki dama. No other way was her power compared to the Genki but only in ENERGY/POWER. Also your explanation about Piccolo's statements not being objective totally contradicts Piccolo being objective about both inciting the other to power up. If Kefla did not surpass former UI, but only SSJBKK, then Piccolo wouldn't need to hope for Kefla to incite current UI to power up more to surpass her. The action and words are against you.

You have characters commenting vague reviews of the fight, which can be interpreted in two ways if you don’t have a context. But guess what, we have a context. Anyone who claims SSB Kaioken Goku wasn’t stronger than SS Kefla in that fight is either in denial or doesn’t understand basic notions of a fight. Goku’s problem is that kaioken gives a temporary advantage and backfires once the fight drags on. For reference, check what Vegeta said in the episode Goku reveals the ability to Hit. More importantly, it was confirmed by Beerus TWO times in the very episode Goku uses it. There is no headcannon here.

And did we just forget Kefla is one of the Saiyans that Vegeta commented that have improved in the middle of the fight? She wasn’t holding back, she powered up several times in response to the fight. You know, like a Saiyan.

Same with Goku who was stronger after the Jiren fight. Whom Caulifla stated was different from before when fighting Goku in SSJ2. The fact is Goku never demonstrated ANY dominance over Kefla, numbing her arms or gut punching her into ruble means NOTHING when Kefla stated she was "far from over." None of Goku's blows could put Kefla down for good or make her movements sluggish. Not to mention his final shot Kamehameha was only good enough to cancel out her two ki blast attacks while Kefla still had enough power to speed behind Goku and finish him with a one hitter quitter. How was Goku stronger than Kefla when he couldn't finish Kefla in the duration he could use KKBlue and when Beerus said he could only finish it in one shot with Kamehameha? He should of slept Kefla when he could with KKBlue punches and his Kamehameha should of swallowed her blasts along with her body up then. Instead his Kamehameha was dismissed by ki blasts and she proceeds to own him. Goku was weaker, his kamehameha showed he was and his hits he touched Kefla with finalized nothing. Goku was beaten in the span of KKBlue. These are the facts.