Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

SSJ Goku is still likely below < 10% Blue Vegeta as Beerus singled out the God state as in surpassing Vegeta's blue state. Still close to one another though.

I think Toriyama stated that by using the SSJ to its Full potential they wouldn't make use of the higher non-god states. It's clear AT hasn't gone this route though as Goku and Vegeta still now and then uses their SSJ2 and SSJ3, the latter on Goku's case.

Indeed. And especially in the manga. I think that SSJ3 has been used more times there than in the anime.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You do realize we are talking about someone who survived an exploding planet while being cut in half and having next to nothing in energy right?

Guy is durable as fuck.

Base Caulifa is also not as strong as base Goku on the manga.

Super Saiyan Goku gave him his energy, which is implied to have healing properties on Namek.

Guys, do you believe that each Killi is 50, 000 Battle power?

It has been bothering me because when Super Saiyan Goku is measured in the Buu saga, that would mean that he was the same as in the Freeza saga. Even though he trained so much and even uses Grade 4 SSJ.

Even though I can accept the fact that Goku didn't train his Base form's power, as stated by Whis himself in Super, it is somewhat impossible to not grow in power after all these years of constant fight and training.

Is this a plot hole, a power scaling mistake or are Killi calculated differently in comparison to Power levels?

I doubt it. The size and shape of Goku’s aura would imply he’s at full power. You can clearly see the contrast after Goku kills Yakon; his aura is much smaller and simplier.

SSJ Goku is still likely below < 10% Blue Vegeta as Beerus singled out the God state as in surpassing Vegeta's blue state. Still close to one another though.

I think Toriyama stated that by using the SSJ to its Full potential they wouldn't make use of the higher non-god states. It's clear AT hasn't gone this route though as Goku and Vegeta still now and then uses their SSJ2 and SSJ3, the latter on Goku's case.

Whis said Vegeta was at less than 10%, not close to it. Even SSJ3 is at least 8x SSJ’s power, so we shouldn’t take that so literally.

By the way Ahill, how strong do you reckon the forms are, exactly? And what do you make of Piccolo, who was not specified to have trained so hard in the manga, supposedly surpassing the Base Saiyans, who have now surpassed Kaioshin?

[ahill1]

Whis said Vegeta was at less than 10%, not close to it. Even SSJ3 is at least 8x SSJ’s power, so we shouldn’t take that so literally.

Yes, but if he were way below 10% I think Whis would be more specific in regards to the amount. "Below 10%" seems like an understament if he were, like, at 1%.

By the way Ahill, how strong do you reckon the forms are, exactly? And what do you make of Piccolo, who was not specified to have trained so hard in the manga, supposedly surpassing the Base Saiyans, who have now surpassed Kaioshin?

Given the logic I sprawled above, I think the lower states are somewhat relevant to the God forms post Whis training. SSJ Goku isn't that below not far from 10% Blue Vegeta and also worth adding up that when Goku saw how Trunks equaled his SSJ3 and stated Black was even more impressive than that, Goku seemed somewhat worried for a minute, which might point out at his God states not being THAT far from his SSJ3.

Going by scaling from the less than 10% Blue Vegeta's performance in conjuntion with Goku's SSJ fight against Hit and considering the statement performed by Goku right after he achieved the God state that this surpasses any imaginable level, I'd say their lower states are reaching the strongest fighters from the Z era, likely surpassing even the strongest one shown with SSJ3 in Goku's case.

[Noah]

If you have a weak character like the Saibamen to acquire the Ultra Instinct would still give trouble for a thousand times stronger other character to beat them up?

I'd say yes . Cui is in the realm of thousands/tens of thousands fold multiplier imo

But would Kiwi eventually kill the UI Saibamen or would he be defeated?

[p-hyvo]

If you have a weak character like the Saibamen to acquire the Ultra Instinct would still give trouble for a thousand times stronger other character to beat them up?

I'd say yes . Cui is in the realm of thousands/tens of thousands fold multiplier imo

But would Kiwi eventually kill the UI Saibamen or would he be defeated?

Kiwi would definitely be defeated.
Following dbh's logic, cui is in the same realm of ssb fusions, so it should possibility be like 50'000x strongest user's form imo.
Even lowballing, in dbs I have cui =x1000 user's strongest form, so a cui saibaman would compete/be in a small disadvantage agaist second form freezer lowballing, on in the realm of kk20 freezer saga Goku if highballing.
This if we assume that ui boosts everyone the same way, and going by the manga that's not exactly how it works, because ui beerus doesn't seem a lot stronger than base beerus anyway

[ahill1]

So, a little post revolving around ranks and numbers. Let's play with the numbers a little, assigning them to each fighter as we see fit.

Goku and Cell have a more or less even fight. When Cell decides to show he's too fast even without Shunkan Idou, he crosses around Goku a few times, who's doing everything he possibly can to keep up. Cell described their powers as "close to a certain extent". 1.1x gap seems fitting enough here. That's the kinda advantage we see imo.


Goku 100
Cell 110

Then Gohan comes to play. Gohan admits he wasn't impressed by Goku and Cell and thinks Goku is holding back. Well, while this already shifts our focus to how incredible Gohan may be, he thinking Goku is holding back likely stems from his preconception that his father must be way stronger.

But then Gohan powers up. Cell admits in not so clear terms that Goku has been surpassed. Cell attacks the boy with seemingly the same effort he used against Goku and Gohan avoids those no problem. Gohan leisurely deals with Cell's attacks aimed at him. Cell then see forced to use more speed, but Gohan still comes from his attack unscratched. So assigning Gohan a 12% advantage over the level Cell used against Goku seems fine. More seems unwarranted, as the goal quickly shifts to enraged Gohan. That's what will get the job done. I may assign a power increase to Cell even though he only mentions speed out of convenience. I think it's possible that Gohan holds a slight advantage over Cell as Cell uses his chi blasts as a decoy to get Gohan in a crushing hug. And when Gohan gets swatted away by Cell later on when trying to save his friends, it's possible he was weakened by Cell's earlier assault.

Goku 100
Cell (vs Goku) 110
Cell (real speed) 120
Gohan 125

Then comes my preferences. Cell's power up to FP seems very alike Vegeta's transformation to grade 2. There's a similarity in their aura, in their physics... I think Cell is drawing from the same source Vegeta was when resorting to grade 2. It'd be then nice to keep the boost constant.

As for the grade 2's boost, it really seems the same type of power up, more or less, Freeza achieved when bulking up and going 100%. He was still thin at 70%, but his body started to adapt once he began powering up to 100%. So a 70/100 power up for grade 2 would find backing in the same increase a character achieved when going through a similar process. And it also so happens to sit right in the middle between the 2x multiplier. So, having Cell undergoing a 70/100 power up...

Goku 100
Cell 110
Cell 120
Gohan 125
Cell (full power) 172

That's where Cell would sit, approximately.

Now, there's the SSJ2-type power up he gets when getting that Zenkai. It'd be nice to have it coinciding with the SSJ2's boost, as well. If we pick the one given in the SEG, that would double his "SSJ-like" power (It's worth noting that he seems to be using a SSJ-like power like Goku and Gohan when fighting both, which also finds backing in the aura and bodily structure, only resorting to the grade 2-esque when going FP, so this SSJ-like power is the one that gets multiplied), meaning he'd get up to 240. If we double Gohan's as well, as a result, he'd be getting up to 250, which is the same exact advantage he had before Cell went full power. If we want to accommodate some possible rage boost, we could push Gohan up to 270... But more than that and his advantage over SPC would be too pronounceable.

Goku 100
Cell 110
Cell 120
Gohan 125
Cell (full power) 172
Super Perfect 240
Gohan SSJ2 270

Well, that was more a list experimenting backing on other power ups, with similar auras and nature, and seeing how it'd end up. It doesn't necessarily reflect how I'd like the gaps to be.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So, a little post revolving around ranks and numbers. Let's play with the numbers a little, assigning them to each fighter as we see fit.

Goku and Cell have a more or less even fight. When Cell decides to show he's too fast even without Shunkan Idou, he crosses around Goku a few times, who's doing everything he possibly can to keep up. Cell described their powers as "close to a certain extent". 1.1x gap seems fitting enough here. That's the kinda advantage we see imo.


Goku 100
Cell 110

Then Gohan comes to play. Gohan admits he wasn't impressed by Goku and Cell and thinks Goku is holding back. Well, while this already shifts our focus to how incredible Gohan may be, he thinking Goku is holding back likely stems from his preconception that his father must be way stronger.

But then Gohan powers up. Cell admits in not so clear terms that Goku has been surpassed. Cell attacks the boy with seemingly the same effort he used against Goku and Gohan avoids those no problem. Gohan leisurely deals with Cell's attacks aimed at him. Cell then see forced to use more speed, but Gohan still comes from his attack unscratched. So assigning Gohan a 12% advantage over the level Cell used against Goku seems fine. More seems unwarranted, as the goal quickly shifts to enraged Gohan. That's what will get the job done. I may assign a power increase to Cell even though he only mentions speed out of convenience. I think it's possible that Gohan holds a slight advantage over Cell as Cell uses his chi blasts as a decoy to get Gohan in a crushing hug. And when Gohan gets swatted away by Cell later on when trying to save his friends, it's possible he was weakened by Cell's earlier assault.

Goku 100
Cell (vs Goku) 110
Cell (real speed) 120
Gohan 125

Then comes my preferences. Cell's power up to FP seems very alike Vegeta's transformation to grade 2. There's a similarity in their aura, in their physics... I think Cell is drawing from the same source Vegeta was when resorting to grade 2. It'd be then nice to keep the boost constant.

As for the grade 2's boost, it really seems the same type of power up, more or less, Freeza achieved when bulking up and going 100%. He was still thin at 70%, but his body started to adapt once he began powering up to 100%. So a 70/100 power up for grade 2 would find backing in the same increase a character achieved when going through a similar process. And it also so happens to sit right in the middle between the 2x multiplier. So, having Cell undergoing a 70/100 power up...

Goku 100
Cell 110
Cell 120
Gohan 125
Cell (full power) 172

That's where Cell would sit, approximately.

Now, there's the SSJ2-type power up he gets when getting that Zenkai. It'd be nice to have it coinciding with the SSJ2's boost, as well. If we pick the one given in the SEG, that would double his "SSJ-like" power (It's worth noting that he seems to be using a SSJ-like power like Goku and Gohan when fighting both, which also finds backing in the aura and bodily structure, only resorting to the grade 2-esque when going FP, so this SSJ-like power is the one that gets multiplied), meaning he'd get up to 240. If we double Gohan's as well, as a result, he'd be getting up to 250, which is the same exact advantage he had before Cell went full power. If we want to accommodate some possible rage boost, we could push Gohan up to 270... But more than that and his advantage over SPC would be too pronounceable.

Goku 100
Cell 110
Cell 120
Gohan 125
Cell (full power) 172
Super Perfect 240
Gohan SSJ2 270

Well, that was more a list experimenting backing on other power ups, with similar auras and nature, and seeing how it'd end up. It doesn't necessarily reflect how I'd like the gaps to be.

I personally find this very good. I mean, you were able to make this list of PLs without making SSJ2 seem like a power-up of tens of times. Many people forget that rage boosts and simple power-ups may increase someone's strength, without affecting the multiplier of a transformation though.

You think that you can expand a little on Vegeta, FTrunks, Piccolo the androids and the lesser forms of Cell? I think that the way you sorted this fight out, it won't be difficult. At least in their max, without taking into account the RoSaT if needed (for Base form power increases)

[p-hyvo]

So, a little post revolving around ranks and numbers. Let's play with the numbers a little, assigning them to each fighter as we see fit.

Goku and Cell have a more or less even fight. When Cell decides to show he's too fast even without Shunkan Idou, he crosses around Goku a few times, who's doing everything he possibly can to keep up. Cell described their powers as "close to a certain extent". 1.1x gap seems fitting enough here. That's the kinda advantage we see imo.


Goku 100
Cell 110

Then Gohan comes to play. Gohan admits he wasn't impressed by Goku and Cell and thinks Goku is holding back. Well, while this already shifts our focus to how incredible Gohan may be, he thinking Goku is holding back likely stems from his preconception that his father must be way stronger.

But then Gohan powers up. Cell admits in not so clear terms that Goku has been surpassed. Cell attacks the boy with seemingly the same effort he used against Goku and Gohan avoids those no problem. Gohan leisurely deals with Cell's attacks aimed at him. Cell then see forced to use more speed, but Gohan still comes from his attack unscratched. So assigning Gohan a 12% advantage over the level Cell used against Goku seems fine. More seems unwarranted, as the goal quickly shifts to enraged Gohan. That's what will get the job done. I may assign a power increase to Cell even though he only mentions speed out of convenience. I think it's possible that Gohan holds a slight advantage over Cell as Cell uses his chi blasts as a decoy to get Gohan in a crushing hug. And when Gohan gets swatted away by Cell later on when trying to save his friends, it's possible he was weakened by Cell's earlier assault.

Goku 100
Cell (vs Goku) 110
Cell (real speed) 120
Gohan 125

Then comes my preferences. Cell's power up to FP seems very alike Vegeta's transformation to grade 2. There's a similarity in their aura, in their physics... I think Cell is drawing from the same source Vegeta was when resorting to grade 2. It'd be then nice to keep the boost constant.

As for the grade 2's boost, it really seems the same type of power up, more or less, Freeza achieved when bulking up and going 100%. He was still thin at 70%, but his body started to adapt once he began powering up to 100%. So a 70/100 power up for grade 2 would find backing in the same increase a character achieved when going through a similar process. And it also so happens to sit right in the middle between the 2x multiplier. So, having Cell undergoing a 70/100 power up...

Goku 100
Cell 110
Cell 120
Gohan 125
Cell (full power) 172

That's where Cell would sit, approximately.

Now, there's the SSJ2-type power up he gets when getting that Zenkai. It'd be nice to have it coinciding with the SSJ2's boost, as well. If we pick the one given in the SEG, that would double his "SSJ-like" power (It's worth noting that he seems to be using a SSJ-like power like Goku and Gohan when fighting both, which also finds backing in the aura and bodily structure, only resorting to the grade 2-esque when going FP, so this SSJ-like power is the one that gets multiplied), meaning he'd get up to 240. If we double Gohan's as well, as a result, he'd be getting up to 250, which is the same exact advantage he had before Cell went full power. If we want to accommodate some possible rage boost, we could push Gohan up to 270... But more than that and his advantage over SPC would be too pronounceable.

Goku 100
Cell 110
Cell 120
Gohan 125
Cell (full power) 172
Super Perfect 240
Gohan SSJ2 270

Well, that was more a list experimenting backing on other power ups, with similar auras and nature, and seeing how it'd end up. It doesn't necessarily reflect how I'd like the gaps to be.

Not bad.
But I have to say that there is something that forces gohan's rageboost, and consequently cell's zenkai, to bee more like tens of times boost, in the manga but moreover in the anime.

As we know, Goku and vegeta both surpassed ssj2 cell games gohan only with their ssj2.
Both Goku and vegeta were stated to be stronger than cell games piccolo in the manga, considering that vegeta was sure of winning the tournament in base even if both piccolo and 18 were there.
In the anime instead, gohan said that vegeta was more powerful than ever when vegeta was fighting pui pui, and shin was stated to be as strong as ssj cell games Goku in an anime guide.


Utilizing your numbers

Goku ssj cell games 100
Vegeta ssj cell games 80
Trunks ssj cell games 70
Piccolo cell games 60
Shin 100
Vegeta, buu saga 180
Pocus 120
Yakon 160
Goku, buu saga 225
Ssj2 22'500
Gohan , vs dabra 150

So, even if ssj gohan (cell games) is 125, his ssj2 rageboosted state would be 18'000/20'000

[ahill1]

How strong do you have the earthlings at their prime in the manga? Which battle power figure would you assign them when they capped out?

We know that Kuririn is the strongest earthling as late as the Boo saga... and that back in the Freeza's arc, he was considered as an asset against Freeza, whose BP was believed to be 530~600k. He has trained 3 years for the androids and is seen training some more for the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai as he'd be participating.

Tenshinhan and Yamcha have spent a good time around Kaio. Iirc 1 year for the Namekians equals 130 days for Earth, meaning Yamcha spent there 136 days, as he was wished firstly, while Tenshinhan spent 266 days, approximately, more time than Goku spent there. Tenshinhan stated he wouldn't surpass Goku if subjected to the same training and that he'd do some twists here and there and incorporate the teachings to his fighting style iirc. Still, we have no clue about how strong they left Kaio. Yamcha is deemed by himself as the least useful, while Tenshinhan is weaker than Kuririn, but holds a technique that can buy the androids time against Semi Cell.

In the Boo saga Tenshinhan has a badass apparition, nullifying Bootenks' attack aimed at Dende, is complimented by the same Boo as "quite a master", but that's it.

So... estimations?

[ahill1]

I personally find this very good. I mean, you were able to make this list of PLs without making SSJ2 seem like a power-up of tens of times. Many people forget that rage boosts and simple power-ups may increase someone's strength, without affecting the multiplier of a transformation though.

You think that you can expand a little on Vegeta, FTrunks, Piccolo the androids and the lesser forms of Cell? I think that the way you sorted this fight out, it won't be difficult. At least in their max, without taking into account the RoSaT if needed (for Base form power increases)

Thanks, man! I appreciate the input. Sure, will add them.

In regards to Piccolo, we have some tibits of evidence pointing towards him being relevant to the level Goku showcased at Karin and expected Cell (initially, the one who whooped Super Vegeta's ass). Trunks seems surprised when Goku confirms Piccolo's suspiscions, telling him that yeah, green buddy isn't relevant against Cell. Trunks' surprise is very telling imo, as in, he didn't expect Piccolo to be straight garbage for the Cell that until such point, had the level used against him and Vegeta as his theoretical full power. It's after this exchange that Trunks confirms that the rabit hole runs deeper on Cell's power and that the level he expected to be his FP, alongside Goku's showcased level at Karin, is only scratching the surface. Plus, Piccolo's performance against the Cell Juniors, in which the shape he ends at is comparable to Vegeta and Trunks', with Herms also reflecting the Cell's recollection of the fight and mentioning of Vegeta and Trunks statement as a not exclusive one.

Vegeta seems confident when he heads at the CGs. He heads there first, showing that he's anxious (which generally comes accompanied of some sort of confidence) and Goku takes Vegeta rushing as a signal that he must have increased his powers a lot. He's okay with Goku going first, adding that he'll be the one to finish Cell. So he's confident, showing that he has at least surpassed Goku's showcased level at Karin and the level Cell formely used to trounce him.

But still, we gotta take note of something... Vegeta isn't his smug arrogant self. He seems very serious and interested in Kakarrot's power. In fact, when Goku's about to fight, he adds a "show me what you can do, Kakarrot", showing that he ought to have some suspiscions of his own about the extent of Goku's power. Piccolo and Trunks, based on the logic sprawled above, knew Goku and Cell can be way more powerful... Vegeta suspects the same, and while he surpassed the minimum requirements, it doesn't seem to be by enough that he wouldn't be uneasy at the prospect of a Goku that can be more powerful than the one previously sensed.

I like to place Piccolo right at Goku's 50% level, which fits Trunks surprise at his uselesness (if they expected Cell to be a 55 [Goku said Cell "may" be more powerful, so I think they're expecting a somewhat close Goku and Cell], then Piccolo at 50 couldn't be useless... he's basically a Goku. Unless Cell has some deep reserves, which Trunks likely catches on), with this level also working with the Dabura/SSJ teen Gohan >> Kaioshin >>> Piccolo we are given in the Boo saga. I like Vegeta/Trunks sitting at 60%, which also seems fair enough with Vegeta's confidence, but at the same time curiosity and cautiousness. It's also worth noting that Cell has lost quite a lot of power from fighting Goku -- firstly spends a good chunk of his power at regenerating his upper body and then says the damage taken from Goku's spam of chi blasts was "surprisingly large"... and yet Vegeta nor Trunks gave any signal of wanting to tangle with Cell, so the more distant you have Vegeta and Trunks from Goku all while having them still noticeably above 50% Goku, the best.

Piccolo - 50
Vegeta/Trunks - 60
Cell Juniors - 62.5
Goku 100
Cell 110
Gohan 120



... as for the previous powers and forms of Cell...

I like the line of thinking that the Cell who trounced Super Vegeta is about on par with 50% Goku, only slightly stronger, as when Goku powers up to 50%, unbeknownst to everyone, it seems they accept Goku's wording that he likely can't win, questioning Goku's carefree mentality instead. It seems his power up at Karin would fit well with the "I likely can't win" if it's placed below the level used to trounce grade 2 Vegeta, but still close enough to reflect the 'likely' can't win. It's also nice that it allows a 2x power up for both Goku and Cell, compared to what they had shown before.

Goku 50% - 50
Cell (vs Vegeta) - 55

-- Same gap at play in comparison to when they fought at full power (well, Goku only, not Cell).

Scaling Super Vegeta, we know he is way weaker than this Cell. Cell tanking his kick seems more impressive than the tank kid Gohan pulled off against full power Cell, so I'd likely have the gap higher (if the Gohan SSJ2 vs Cell one was a 60%, a 50%-55% would do here).

Vegeta SSJG2 - 30

As for the grade 2's multiplier, refers to the above. I like it as a 70/100, 1.4x boost, making SSJ Vegeta a 21 or so. 

Semi Cell is initially in a respectful range, but Trunks seems surprised at Vegeta promptly transforming, implying he may not have needed that at the beginning. But once Semi Cell goes FP, I think it's safe to say he has surpassed SSJ Vegeta. I feel Vegeta, with his arrogance and dismissive attitude, would comment something like "I don't even need this new state to defeat you" if Semi Cell at full power didn't stand up to even SSJ1. So if Vegeta SSJ is ~ 21 in the scale, Semi Cell at full power would be a 24 or so... still falling short to Vegeta's 30 when in grade 2.

Scaling down, we'd find #16 and Imperfect Cell. Using the tanking feat again to determine the gap, we have initial Semi Cell barely moving his head at #16's punch. Seems also a more impressive tank in comparison to SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell... and similar to Super Vegeta vs initial Perfect Cell. So we may be looking at the same difference here, given to me above as 55% (#16 is 55% of initial Semi Cell).

With initial Semi Cell being in the range but likely weaker than SSJ Vegeta, who is himself a 21, a 19 would do here, making #16... a 10 or so. Same for Imperfect Cell post earthlings.

As for Imperfect Cell in relation to #17/Piccolo... we are looking at another pretty large gap. I got a nice way to more or less figure out a range for Piccolo before the RoSaT. Cell stated, when battling Kamiccolo for the first time, that if he absorbed Kamiccolo's power, he'd get close to his initial evolution state... and when Cell showed up later on, overflowing from the energies from the humans, he stated he overdid it and absorbed more than needed to be. So Cell (post absorptions) > Cell (1st evolution complete) > Cell (post absorbing Kamiccolo) seems a correlating standard.

I know Cell's absorptions don't seem additive, but assuming it'd be, it'd give us a heck of a solid ground to work on.

Imperfect Cell (initially) - 3.75
Kamiccolo (weighted0 - 4.5
Kamiccolo (no-weights) - 5
Android #17 - 5
Imperfect Cell (+Kamiccolo) - 8.25 (close to first evolution)
Imperfect Cell (first evolution completed) - 9
Imperfect Cell (post earthlings, overdid it) - 10
Android #16 - 10
Semi Cell (initial) - 19
SSJ Vegeta - 21
Semi Cell (FP) - 24
SSJG2 Vegeta - 30
50% Goku - 50
Piccolo - 50
Cell (vs Vegeta) - 55
Vegeta/Trunks - 60
Cell Juniors - 62.5
Goku - 100
Cell - 110
Cell (vs Gohan) - 120
Gohan - 120
Cell (FP) - 172
SPC - 240
SSJ2 Gohan - 270



There! Everything seems all well backed up and justified . If you want me to go more in depth about some other character's number in the scale I've provided, feel free to ask

As we know, Goku and vegeta both surpassed ssj2 cell games gohan only with their ssj2.
Both Goku and vegeta were stated to be stronger than cell games piccolo in the manga, considering that vegeta was sure of winning the tournament in base even if both piccolo and 18 were there.
In the anime instead, gohan said that vegeta was more powerful than ever when vegeta was fighting pui pui, and shin was stated to be as strong as ssj cell games Goku in an anime guide.

Thaks for the comment and praise!

Tens of times seems too much for me. I know that you're trying to rationalize the implications of the base Saiyajins' super strength in the Boo saga, which is admittedly what we might stumble upon if taking feats and statements at face value, but what about using lessened SSJ's multipliers? That might ease a little the CGs gaps. I could work with SSJ in the Boo saga being as low as 2x a boost, if I feel the need to incorporate the base >> Piccolo implications.

As for Kaioshin in comparison to CGs Goku, it's worth noting it was only given in the El Manga Legendario guide, and we don't know if such statement was an embellishment from the Spanish's production, so gotta be wary of that.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I personally find this very good. I mean, you were able to make this list of PLs without making SSJ2 seem like a power-up of tens of times. Many people forget that rage boosts and simple power-ups may increase someone's strength, without affecting the multiplier of a transformation though.

You think that you can expand a little on Vegeta, FTrunks, Piccolo the androids and the lesser forms of Cell? I think that the way you sorted this fight out, it won't be difficult. At least in their max, without taking into account the RoSaT if needed (for Base form power increases)

Thanks, man! I appreciate the input. Sure, will add them.

In regards to Piccolo, we have some tibits of evidence pointing towards him being relevant to the level Goku showcased at Karin and expected Cell (initially, the one who whooped Super Vegeta's ass). Trunks seems surprised when Goku confirms Piccolo's suspiscions, telling him that yeah, green buddy isn't relevant against Cell. Trunks' surprise is very telling imo, as in, he didn't expect Piccolo to be straight garbage for the Cell that until such point, had the level used against him and Vegeta as his theoretical full power. It's after this exchange that Trunks confirms that the rabit hole runs deeper on Cell's power and that the level he expected to be his FP, alongside Goku's showcased level at Karin, is only scratching the surface. Plus, Piccolo's performance against the Cell Juniors, in which the shape he ends at is comparable to Vegeta and Trunks', with Herms also reflecting the Cell's recollection of the fight and mentioning of Vegeta and Trunks statement as a not exclusive one.

Vegeta seems confident when he heads at the CGs. He heads there first, showing that he's anxious (which generally comes accompanied of some sort of confidence) and Goku takes Vegeta rushing as a signal that he must have increased his powers a lot. He's okay with Goku going first, adding that he'll be the one to finish Cell. So he's confident, showing that he has at least surpassed Goku's showcased level at Karin and the level Cell formely used to trounce him.

But still, we gotta take note of something... Vegeta isn't his smug arrogant self. He seems very serious and interested in Kakarrot's power. In fact, when Goku's about to fight, he adds a "show me what you can do, Kakarrot", showing that he ought to have some suspiscions of his own about the extent of Goku's power. Piccolo and Trunks, based on the logic sprawled above, knew Goku and Cell can be way more powerful... Vegeta suspects the same, and while he surpassed the minimum requirements, it doesn't seem to be by enough that he wouldn't be uneasy at the prospect of a Goku that can be more powerful than the one previously sensed.

I like to place Piccolo right at Goku's 50% level, which fits Trunks surprise at his uselesness (if they expected Cell to be a 55 [Goku said Cell "may" be more powerful, so I think they're expecting a somewhat close Goku and Cell], then Piccolo at 50 couldn't be useless... he's basically a Goku. Unless Cell has some deep reserves, which Trunks likely catches on), with this level also working with the Dabura/SSJ teen Gohan >> Kaioshin >>> Piccolo we are given in the Boo saga. I like Vegeta/Trunks sitting at 60%, which also seems fair enough with Vegeta's confidence, but at the same time curiosity and cautiousness. It's also worth noting that Cell has lost quite a lot of power from fighting Goku -- firstly spends a good chunk of his power at regenerating his upper body and then says the damage taken from Goku's spam of chi blasts was "surprisingly large"... and yet Vegeta nor Trunks gave any signal of wanting to tangle with Cell, so the more distant you have Vegeta and Trunks from Goku all while having them still noticeably above 50% Goku, the best.

Piccolo - 50
Vegeta/Trunks - 60
Cell Juniors - 62.5
Goku 100
Cell 110
Gohan 120

And that's it. If you want me to go more in depth about some other character's number in the scale I've provided, feel free to ask

For now, I am covered. I think that you would do a great favor to the Fandom if you posted a complete Cell Saga tier list. No need to do it now of course. You have provided me with good info. I am currently examining other sagas, so I truly appreciate it when people measure said sagas with great detail themselves. It gives me an idea.

Now 8 will always use these data. They can be easily adjusted to my scale. Thanks a lot! I will tell you if I need something more.

[ahill1]

I personally find this very good. I mean, you were able to make this list of PLs without making SSJ2 seem like a power-up of tens of times. Many people forget that rage boosts and simple power-ups may increase someone's strength, without affecting the multiplier of a transformation though.

You think that you can expand a little on Vegeta, FTrunks, Piccolo the androids and the lesser forms of Cell? I think that the way you sorted this fight out, it won't be difficult. At least in their max, without taking into account the RoSaT if needed (for Base form power increases)

Thanks, man! I appreciate the input. Sure, will add them.

In regards to Piccolo, we have some tibits of evidence pointing towards him being relevant to the level Goku showcased at Karin and expected Cell (initially, the one who whooped Super Vegeta's ass). Trunks seems surprised when Goku confirms Piccolo's suspiscions, telling him that yeah, green buddy isn't relevant against Cell. Trunks' surprise is very telling imo, as in, he didn't expect Piccolo to be straight garbage for the Cell that until such point, had the level used against him and Vegeta as his theoretical full power. It's after this exchange that Trunks confirms that the rabit hole runs deeper on Cell's power and that the level he expected to be his FP, alongside Goku's showcased level at Karin, is only scratching the surface. Plus, Piccolo's performance against the Cell Juniors, in which the shape he ends at is comparable to Vegeta and Trunks', with Herms also reflecting the Cell's recollection of the fight and mentioning of Vegeta and Trunks statement as a not exclusive one.

Vegeta seems confident when he heads at the CGs. He heads there first, showing that he's anxious (which generally comes accompanied of some sort of confidence) and Goku takes Vegeta rushing as a signal that he must have increased his powers a lot. He's okay with Goku going first, adding that he'll be the one to finish Cell. So he's confident, showing that he has at least surpassed Goku's showcased level at Karin and the level Cell formely used to trounce him.

But still, we gotta take note of something... Vegeta isn't his smug arrogant self. He seems very serious and interested in Kakarrot's power. In fact, when Goku's about to fight, he adds a "show me what you can do, Kakarrot", showing that he ought to have some suspiscions of his own about the extent of Goku's power. Piccolo and Trunks, based on the logic sprawled above, knew Goku and Cell can be way more powerful... Vegeta suspects the same, and while he surpassed the minimum requirements, it doesn't seem to be by enough that he wouldn't be uneasy at the prospect of a Goku that can be more powerful than the one previously sensed.

I like to place Piccolo right at Goku's 50% level, which fits Trunks surprise at his uselesness (if they expected Cell to be a 55 [Goku said Cell "may" be more powerful, so I think they're expecting a somewhat close Goku and Cell], then Piccolo at 50 couldn't be useless... he's basically a Goku. Unless Cell has some deep reserves, which Trunks likely catches on), with this level also working with the Dabura/SSJ teen Gohan >> Kaioshin >>> Piccolo we are given in the Boo saga. I like Vegeta/Trunks sitting at 60%, which also seems fair enough with Vegeta's confidence, but at the same time curiosity and cautiousness. It's also worth noting that Cell has lost quite a lot of power from fighting Goku -- firstly spends a good chunk of his power at regenerating his upper body and then says the damage taken from Goku's spam of chi blasts was "surprisingly large"... and yet Vegeta nor Trunks gave any signal of wanting to tangle with Cell, so the more distant you have Vegeta and Trunks from Goku all while having them still noticeably above 50% Goku, the best.

Piccolo - 50
Vegeta/Trunks - 60
Cell Juniors - 62.5
Goku 100
Cell 110
Gohan 120

And that's it. If you want me to go more in depth about some other character's number in the scale I've provided, feel free to ask

For now, I am covered. I think that you would do a great favor to the Fandom if you posted a complete Cell Saga tier list. No need to do it now of course. You have provided me with good info. I am currently examining other sagas, so I truly appreciate it when people measure said sagas with great detail themselves. It gives me an idea.

Now 8 will always use these data. They can be easily adjusted to my scale. Thanks a lot! I will tell you if I need something more.

I've edited my previous post and added more characters, until the Piccolo's fight with #17. Tell me what you think. I've provided the reasons behind each gaps as well

[Vertical]

As for the grade 2's boost, it really seems the same type of power up, more or less, Freeza achieved when bulking up and going 100%. He was still thin at 70%, but his body started to adapt once he began powering up to 100%. So a 70/100 power up for grade 2 would find backing in the same increase a character achieved when going through a similar process. And it also so happens to sit right in the middle between the 2x multiplier. So, having Cell undergoing a 70/100 power up...

So many things fell into place when I ventured down this line of thinking... although I took things a little further...

I'm glad someone else is walking a similar path.

[Grand Marshal 1]

As for the grade 2's boost, it really seems the same type of power up, more or less, Freeza achieved when bulking up and going 100%. He was still thin at 70%, but his body started to adapt once he began powering up to 100%. So a 70/100 power up for grade 2 would find backing in the same increase a character achieved when going through a similar process. And it also so happens to sit right in the middle between the 2x multiplier. So, having Cell undergoing a 70/100 power up...

So many things fell into place when I ventured down this line of thinking... although I took things a little further...

I'm glad someone else is walking a similar path.

I like this way of thinking. I initially used a multiplier of roughly ×75 for SSJG2. But when G3 was in the talk I found myself confused.

Thus I changed multipliers. I had G2 as a 150×Base or 3×SSJ. G3 as a ×500 Base or ×3SSJG2, commonly known as "10 times stronger than the previous form".

Let's say that we accept a new multiplier for G2 which is similar to Freeza's FP (I accept it although I think that the point of the power stressed forms is to increase your power past 100%, given how Freeza for example didn't revert to 50% Final upon reaching his peak, assuming that G4 is the peak of a Super Saiyan), so how would it work with G3?

I just think that it is somewhat difficult to put all the grades within the gap of SSJ and SSJ2. Any help?

But even if I change my mind for these forms, I doubt that the multiplier that I have for Power Stressed PSSJB will change.

[ahill1]

As for the grade 2's boost, it really seems the same type of power up, more or less, Freeza achieved when bulking up and going 100%. He was still thin at 70%, but his body started to adapt once he began powering up to 100%. So a 70/100 power up for grade 2 would find backing in the same increase a character achieved when going through a similar process. And it also so happens to sit right in the middle between the 2x multiplier. So, having Cell undergoing a 70/100 power up...

So many things fell into place when I ventured down this line of thinking... although I took things a little further...

I'm glad someone else is walking a similar path.

That's nice! I feel happy going down the same route you do

Which other things fell into place? You made me curious

[ekrolo2]

Is there any way to make Super Perfect Cell weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan while also keeping the x100 base multiplier for him.

[Hugo Boss]

Is there any way to make Super Perfect Cell weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan while also keeping the x100 base multiplier for him.

Why would Super Perfect Cell be weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan though? Seems more like he is about even with Gohan.

[p-hyvo]

Is there any way to make Super Perfect Cell weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan while also keeping the x100 base multiplier for him.

No
Gohan when injured was clearly in disadvantage

[ekrolo2]

Is there any way to make Super Perfect Cell weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan while also keeping the x100 base multiplier for him.

Why would Super Perfect Cell be weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan though? Seems more like he is about even with Gohan.

Gohan says half his Ki was lost when Cell blasted his arm. Then later on Goku says Gohan is holding back even this amount of power because he's afraid he'll blow up the Earth. Not that he's holding back the half he lost, the half he's already using in the beam clash. When Gohan let's the 50 percent he's got left rip he eats Cell completely.

[Hugo Boss]

Is there any way to make Super Perfect Cell weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan while also keeping the x100 base multiplier for him.

Why would Super Perfect Cell be weaker than 50% SS2 Gohan though? Seems more like he is about even with Gohan.

Gohan says half his Ki was lost when Cell blasted his arm. Then later on Goku says Gohan is holding back even this amount of power because he's afraid he'll blow up the Earth. Not that he's holding back the half he lost, the half he's already using in the beam clash. When Gohan let's the 50 percent he's got left rip he eats Cell completely.

Gohan didn’t finish Cell off with only half of his full power though. That wouldn’t make sense, since Cell was finally able to hurt him, which shows their strength became similar. Before that point, Gohan was no selling his attacks.

In that final push, Gohan just managed to release all his strength, while Cell lost the balance needed to fight back.