Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

[jjgp1112]

About the only one who developed and it's only just a little from traveling to Namek was Piccolo. How did Goku develop? I assume you're gonna say he accepted his Saiyan side, but he only ever had an issue with it when he first found out about it. Other than that, he's quick to accept he's a Saiyan by birth.

And I don't see an answer to my question. You've just said DB and DBZ didn't have incredible writing but Super's was worse.

- Knowing when someone is lying to him, example Kami.
- No longer kills out of impulse and spare his enemies.
- Knowing to use their weakness to get what he wants, example Elder Kaioshin to help them.
- Being able to train others to become a better fighter and get stronger, example here is Gohan.
- Teaching step by step how fusion works to Goten, Trunks and Piccolo.
- No longer needs to pat someone in their part to know what gender they are. Can tell the difference between boy and girl.
- Knowing to use his sense of smell and sensing ki to know one identity and who is stronger.
- Knowing what to wish for when he has the Dragon Ball, which is revive those that were killed.
- Being able to react when someone sneak attack him, example when he was fighting against Ginyu and Jeice attacks him.

Those are DB and DBZ feats from Goku.

We're talking about his character, not skill and basic knowledge that he still uses in Super anyway.

[Cursed Lemon]

I think the error some people are making here is assuming that "moving past" = "zero utilization".

Let's say you have three coincidental plot lines all revolving around the same central story conflict.

Plot A - Underling characters (Bulma, Yajirobe, Chiaotzu, etc.) running Scooby Doo-esque mystery solving tasks

Plot B - Mid-tier fighters battling a central antagonist and their henchmen

Plot C - Goku and Vegeta fighting a broader battle against the biggest bad(s) in the story

"A" is where you explore the plot's causal underpinnings, the who-what-where-when-why, with minimal combat and a heavy reliance on the characters' special characteristics (Bulma's intelligence, Chiaotzu's "ESP", etc.) to solve problems and advance the story. "C" plot involves our two invariably strongest fighters interacting with the gods, angels, etc. to get a sense of how the plot is developing on the wider scale and deal with more universal forces participating in the fight. This leaves "B" to shoulder the brunt of the action and character development as well as a showcase for the primary antagonist's motivations. All you have to do in order to "move past" Goku + Vegeta is to simply focus on B-plot. That's it. Pool most of your resources into making the mid-tier characters look good, give them competitive and visually spectacular fights, invest in their differentiation, give them their own plot-relevant development. Not only will you help ease DB along into a new spectrum of focus, but you can invoke Goku + Vegeta at special intervals for maximum punched-in-the-face impact for your audience, AND you can help mitigate power creep.

[ABED]

I don't think it's they case at all that this thread is about giving other characters more to do. Why call "Can DB ever move past Goku" if what they are really getting at is "Will DB make better use of its other characters?"

[super michael]

About the only one who developed and it's only just a little from traveling to Namek was Piccolo. How did Goku develop? I assume you're gonna say he accepted his Saiyan side, but he only ever had an issue with it when he first found out about it. Other than that, he's quick to accept he's a Saiyan by birth.

And I don't see an answer to my question. You've just said DB and DBZ didn't have incredible writing but Super's was worse.

- Knowing when someone is lying to him, example Kami.
- No longer kills out of impulse and spare his enemies.
- Knowing to use their weakness to get what he wants, example Elder Kaioshin to help them.
- Being able to train others to become a better fighter and get stronger, example here is Gohan.
- Teaching step by step how fusion works to Goten, Trunks and Piccolo.
- No longer needs to pat someone in their part to know what gender they are. Can tell the difference between boy and girl.
- Knowing to use his sense of smell and sensing ki to know one identity and who is stronger.
- Knowing what to wish for when he has the Dragon Ball, which is revive those that were killed.
- Being able to react when someone sneak attack him, example when he was fighting against Ginyu and Jeice attacks him.

Those are DB and DBZ feats from Goku.

younger Goku was willing to spare his enemies.
Goku always had a sharp sense of smell. That's not growth in DBZ, and he learned how to utilize ki in DB.
Stop making stuff up like those last two. Those aren't examples of anything.

God, you will find even the most asinine made up reason to shit on Super.

Goku was able to react when Jeice did a sneak attack, while he was fighting Captain Ginyu. If you think I am making it up here is a video:
https://youtu.be/NLyLRQqS6rU?t=524
At around 8:44, Jeice shot a energy ball and Goku was able to react even though his focus was on Ginyu only.

Goku knew what to wish for when on these occasion:

- Reviving Upa father
- Revive the Dragon Balls by going to Kami
- Telling the Z fighters to not revive him until 1 year later. (I could be wrong on this one)
- Going to Namek to try and get a new guardian to make new Dragon Ball.
- Using the Dragon Ball so they forget Buu was evil.

Goku in DBS he couldn't react at all, because his guard was down. Goku didn't know what to wish for in DBS.

Just admit that DBS anime exaggerates Goku flaws and the characters flaws.

[ABED]

I didn't mean you made up events, I mean you made up reasons to hate on the series. That one incident doesn't prove Goku can never be distracted.

Just admit that DBS anime exaggerates Goku flaws and the characters flaws.

I'm not going to get into this with you again. This is a completely separate discussion.

And I have admitted he Super exaggerates the characters' characteristics. At no point did ever claim it didn't. I don't agree with every example you give though. You need to pay attention.

[super michael]

I didn't mean you made up events, I mean you made up reasons to hate on the series. That one incident doesn't prove Goku can never be distracted.

Just admit that DBS anime exaggerates Goku flaws and the characters flaws.

I'm not going to get into this with you again. This is a completely separate discussion.

And I have admitted he Super exaggerates the characters' characteristics. At no point did ever claim it didn't. I don't agree with every example you give though. You need to pay attention.

Thanks for clearing that up, I guess it was a misunderstanding. Don't worry we don't need to talk about how Goku character is like in DBS, this topic has nothing to do with how DBS Goku is like.

I guess I forgot about that sorry.

[Desassina]

Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

It could with a scenario like Dragon Ball Online many years after. I don't want to hear about the old cast. I want to see things like fighting, adventure and comedy, role playing game like progression to its story (power creep, party building, etc.) and a few select brawling contests (tournaments, battle royales, etc.) to bring its characters together. Toriyama is not going to be its author, off course, but it could be managed like a game, because Goku is whom the author is tied to, and not the rules to throw the die for. A spin off is the only way to move past Goku. Not a direct continuation.

Edited passive aggressive comment out thanks to The Cure.

[Cure Dragon 255]

If you dont want to engage ABED just dont. Dont leave a passive aggresive "I totally wont" thing in your post.

EDIT:WOW! Thanks for listening. You rock!

[Grimlock]

A spin off is the only way to move past Goku. Not a direct continuation.

Anything that focuses on anyone other than the original protagonist is a spin-off. Boruto is a direct sequel to Naruto but it's a spin-off.

Dragon Ball Online fits that, since its protagonist is Trunks, and is a direct sequel to the manga.

[Desassina]

A spin off is the only way to move past Goku. Not a direct continuation.

Anything that focuses on anyone other than the original protagonist is a spin-off. Boruto is a direct sequel to Naruto but it's a spin-off.

Hmm... Strange, I would still consider that a sequel, like Korra to Avatar the Last Airbender.

Dragon Ball Online fits that, since its protagonist is Trunks, and is a direct sequel to the manga.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that Xenoverse? I thought that Dragon Ball Online was unrelated.

[Grimlock]

Hmm... Strange, I would still consider that a sequel, like Korra to Avatar the Last Airbender.

They are sequel.

Spin-off means to expand or to explore/highlight something or someone, usually through other ways:

• Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a prequel, as well as a spin-off to Harry Potter. •

Its protagonist was already established in the Harry Potter franchise, but only now would he get his own movies.

• The Flash is a spin-off to the Arrow series. •

Barry Allen had already appeared in a couple of Arrow episodes before getting his own series.

• Trunks TV Special (and its manga) is a spin-off to Dragon Ball. •

Needless to say, Dragon Ball was Goku's story. But Toriyama went to draw the manga which would tell a bit of Trunks' story, focusing on him instead of Goku.
By the way, all Dragon Ball TV Specials are spin-off, since they focus on someone else other than Goku (Bardock, Trunks and Goku Junior).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that Xenoverse? I thought that Dragon Ball Online was unrelated.

No, Dragon Ball Xenoverse is based on Dragon Ball Online, but it's not meant/created to be a sequel for the series, as Dragon Ball Online was.

[ABED]

The Trunks special wasn't really a spin off. It was a one off TV special that concentrated on another character than the main character. TV shows do this all the time. They will dedicate an episode to telling a story from the POV of someone other than the main character.

[Desassina]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that Xenoverse? I thought that Dragon Ball Online was unrelated.

No, Dragon Ball Xenoverse is based on Dragon Ball Online, but it's not meant/created to be a sequel for the series, as Dragon Ball Online was.

Silly me, I wasn't asking which one was a manga follow up, but whose protagonist was Trunks. I eventually checked it, but thanks for the answer. My confusion was due to the character creation aspect and the intro.

[kemuri07]

woops. Totally didn't mean to bail on this thread, but with school and stuff--you know how it is.

I do think that Dragonball can move away from Goku; The world building of Dragonball is too extensive to somehow simply be a story from the perspective of a single character. You could make that point if DragonBall's narrative was connected to some emotional core of Goku's character, but I don't think that's the case. I think Dragon Ball is expansive enough that you can do a whole lot of things, and still make it recognizably Dragonball. What's going on with the Super manga seems to be indicative of that.

[MyVisionity]

I was recently watching some GT and noticed in the first episode the narrator comments at the end something like "A new tale in the legend of Goku is about to begin!". This says to me that the writers had begun to consider Goku to be a legendary figure of some kind. In the final episode Goku transcends humanity entirely after his soul is bound to Shen Long and he departs. They even build a statue of him in the future if I recall.

So can there be a DB without Goku? Yes, as long as the new lead character and story is inspired by Goku in some way. *Should* there be a DB without Goku? That's another question. I'm not so sure it would work out well unless it were a spin-off maybe.

[ABED]

woops. Totally didn't mean to bail on this thread, but with school and stuff--you know how it is.

I do think that Dragonball can move away from Goku; The world building of Dragonball is too extensive to somehow simply be a story from the perspective of a single character. You could make that point if DragonBall's narrative was connected to some emotional core of Goku's character, but I don't think that's the case. I think Dragon Ball is expansive enough that you can do a whole lot of things, and still make it recognizably Dragonball. What's going on with the Super manga seems to be indicative of that.

The world building is not that great, and never comes before story. DB's narrative is absolutely connected to his emotional core. It's all about reaching greater heights. What makes something recognizably DB beyond its characters? Is it the McGuffins?

[JamesDaSpaghettiTaco]

The only way I can see it like that is with Uub, and that would honestly feel really weird so, I think they might just continue the series till Goku passes away from old age

[kizuki]

I think the idea of moving away from Goku was toyed with quite a bit during the final stages of the original manga run and it just didn't work out. Even as early as the Cell arc, focusing on Gohan's power, having Goku die (again), his son saving the world, etc. It could've been set up for the "next generation" but by the time the Buu arc materialized, the manga was a mish-mosh of not knowing what direction to go in. "Gohan is the hero. Nope, now it's Goten and Trunks. FUSION! Y'know what? Just bring back Goku." A lot of that was attributed to the issues the manga had towards the end of its run.

As a fan of the original series since the late 90's I don't know how I'd PERSONALLY feel about a spin off / a world without Goku or the original cast but I wouldn't be completely against it, I would just have a hard time considering it "my" Dragon Ball, I guess you could say. I also think they would have a hard time telling a story that's relevant. I've seen comments on the world building and to be honest, there isn't any great world building that I can honestly think of. I think the latest movie did a hell of a job telling the Saiyan's story with Freeza (I could probably watch that flashback by itself a few times), but the world of Dragon Ball itself never changes much.

The series focus is on Goku, and kinda Vegeta, and the way the latest chapters are going they're really focusing on the two getting even STRONGER.

If they ever started a spin off series it would likely need to be so far down the line that all the insanely powerful characters would be an after thought and the world itself would have gone through a reset of sorts, OR they'd have to completely discredit anything Goku has ever done with HIS power, which, let's be honest, they'll never do.

I guess my question to this idea would be: What would you want from a Dragon Ball without Goku? Again, they tried to do it, a few times in my opinion, and it just wouldn't stick. If it was something that explored the life of, let's say, Roshi before Dragon Ball or the history of the Saiyans up until Freeza destroys them, then it could be entertaining. It would need to be a huge step back from the monstrously powerful characters we have now, but I think it'd work. A time where Roshi was the strongest being on Earth, or Freeza was the biggest threat in the Universe, really good options for storytelling there. In my humble opinion, a next generation series could work but for me, it'd only work if it went in reverse, if that makes sense. If you're going to progress forward with the story only to cut Goku or the main cast out, just to replace him with someone maybe a bit more likeable in these times, but make them just as powerful, what's the point?

[DBZAOTA482]

I certainly can and Toriyama knew that but he didn't want to put the effort into making it work.

Hell, some of the best DB stories ever told (Namek arc, Bardock: The Father of Goku, and History of Trunks) only minorly involved Goku.

[jjgp1112]

Well yeah, I'm sure spin-offs and what-ifs of that nature have an endless reservoir of interesting stories. No denying that.

But the mainline Dragon Ball series ceases to be Dragon Ball without Goku. Goku IS the story. That's what we're discussing, right?