"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:36 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:30 am
Tai Lung wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:28 am
DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:08 am

I’m confused. What exactly does it contradict?
Vegeta is supposed to be a family man who no longer thinks about destroying
He may be a family man but that doesn't mean he still doesn't want to grow stronger for various reason. Either just for himself or incase Frieza returns stronger than ever like he said in the Broly Movie.

Piccolo on the other hand has no such motivation to grow like Vegeta does.
but piccolo is also a warrior .. he did not accept to go back to namek because he would get bored of having a peaceful life ...

vegeta since he saved several nameks it seemed that his life of destruction had ended ... this is more counterproductive for his development

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:09 am

TheMikado wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:13 pm
Dragon Ball Super Manga: Chapter 30: The Man Called Jiren. Pages 12 & 13. Indicates there are clear roles and duties Hakaishin are expected to perform and their universes are ranked accordingly.

Maybe you should re-read it and next time bring receipts before claiming: “The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it.”

Respectfully.
Again, you misunderstand the text.

I won't send you on some wild goose chase to read the old Zamas chapters. Even just this current arc establishes how the destroyers work. Beerus himself told Vegeta that worrying about such things isn't what Gods of Destruction do, and to be able to use those techniques you can't think about mortal shit like that.

Even when Beerus was ordering the destruction of Planet Vegeta, he did it on a whim. That's how Gods of Destruction operate.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:06 am

TKA wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:09 am
TheMikado wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:13 pm
Dragon Ball Super Manga: Chapter 30: The Man Called Jiren. Pages 12 & 13. Indicates there are clear roles and duties Hakaishin are expected to perform and their universes are ranked accordingly.

Maybe you should re-read it and next time bring receipts before claiming: “The gods of destruction do not destroy to keep some sense of balance, or other nebulous things. They do it because they feel like it.”

Respectfully.
Again, you misunderstand the text.

I won't send you on some wild goose chase to read the old Zamas chapters. Even just this current arc establishes how the destroyers work. Beerus himself told Vegeta that worrying about such things isn't what Gods of Destruction do, and to be able to use those techniques you can't think about mortal shit like that.

Even when Beerus was ordering the destruction of Planet Vegeta, he did it on a whim. That's how Gods of Destruction operate.
I told you to bring receipts before, so now I’m just going to correct you completely. You’re flat out wrong and it’s not a debate, from Toriyama’s own lips.
In the film Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, coming out in March 2013, a new god, the “God of Destruction”, appears. In this [book], Kaiō-sama and Kaiōshin-sama are described as “Gods of Creation”, but do they have the power to create things like planets?
Rather than Kaiōshin-sama making planets, he is able to provide the impetus for them to be born. Also, he will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. He will even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but his basic job is to watch over the numerous planets. Because the number of planets is so very large, the four Kaiō-sama help him out as well. They intervene if it appears that the world’s balance will crumble, but normally, they merely act in an advisory role for new life-forms, and don’t get involved. In order to provide a balance to the constantly increasing number of planets, the God of Destruction destroys [them], but he does not act on Kaiōshin’s orders; he destroys according to his own individual judgment. Except, he is capricious, so he will destroy even an important world without a second thought, or when he finds it bothersome, let someone else act as an agent of destruction.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... yama-2013/

So again to reiterate the point, according to Toriyama directly, Hakaishin are supposed to balance the worlds and not destroy important planets. Beerus himself does whatever he wants which is a Beerus problem, that’s not what the actual job of Hakaishin entails. Those are two separate concepts.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:38 am

Whis compares Zamasu to Beerus and the later says how they are so different. How he's wise, how Hakaishins must be conscious of balance and not just who they don't like without thinking of repercussions...

Beerus is full of shit and sucks at his job.

Which leads to the question, where did he learn Hakai and from who? Do all Angels know it and teach it? If not either they are bestow with it when chosen as a God or there's no backstory and one of the most powerful techniques just got pulled out of thin air and associated with Hakaishins.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:48 am

Pretty sure Beerus allowed Frieza to go through with the destruction of Planet Vegeta because the Saiyans were a counter-productive species. As in, they're the only species that relies solely on war, conflict, raiding, pillaging, etc. they are basically space vikings, so they were just a liability for the Gods and the general mortal level of U7 (war = ruined worlds = lower mortal level). From the perspective of the Gods, getting rid of them did an overall favour to the Universe and the mortals living in it.

I mean, this arc is literally caused by the Saiyans going berserk on the Cerelean homeworld... so...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:51 am

What is it with this forum and the cerebral narcissism at times? Can we sometimes just accept we don't know enough to make definitive statements on certain things, such as this GoD argument, however there is enough evidence to get a pretty good idea.

Things we do know- We know they should destroy threats such as Buu, we know there is some mortal level which is never explained outright further. We therefore rely on a touch of guess work, and trying to fit some of the puzzle together, as there job is never outright confirmed, however this doesn't mean that there isn't enough stuff in the manga that alludes to a GoDs job.
The mortal level in itself tells us that there is something the GoD and Kaioshin must follow to nurture and/or maintain a good universe. Gowasu tells us roughly what a Kaioshin is meant to do, and this in turn provides insight into what the mortal level likely is. Babari is the key here. Gowasu tells us that the Kaioshin exist to think of ways mortals can fix their issues when things go pear shaped. His joy at seeing the life advancing on Babari all but tells us that this planet is advancing in a way that it should be. Another thing to note is that strength has very little, to nothing to do with the mortal level of a world. Gowasu for example makes no mention of such, and Shin also states that he doesn't observe planets in terms of strength when they're looking for participants for the ToP. That's two Kaioshin we see doing their jobs who both show no signs of strength being a factor. This doesn't get contradicted when Beerus and Shin argue about the mortal ranking either. Sample size is of course small, but that's all we have to go on.
Sidra also confirms what Gowasu said about watching mortals and thinking of ways the mortals can fix it themselves, as when we see him doing his job and doing the calculations he states that "possibility of helping themselves 0%, effects on other planets if destroyed, none.". Sidra however is incompetent, and states that if he makes another mistake the grand priest will get angry. The fact a GoD can make a mistake therefore confirms that they have some rules to follow, which surely must be not destroying a planet with a high mortal level. This also keeps a balance with the GoD and the Kaioshin.
Beerus appears to get by on dumb luck, or the fact he's always sleeping means he's had little chance to do tremendous damage. Or, good food is the key to a highly advanced race, so by dumb luck he's got by okay, and if he was awake to deal with threats Universe 7 would be the supreme universe.😂

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:30 am

Sora Saiyan wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:51 am If he was awake to deal with threats Universe 7 would be the supreme universe.😂
This right here is the best/worst part of this. All the woes of universe 7 are basically entirely surrounded by Beerus being incompetent and just out for his own amusement.

In universe, I hate everything about that. Although you can argue that his hands off approach is what lead to the beings of his universe being so strong. But we also see that isn’t the only method to get stronger being in your universe.

Out of universe Beerus is probably one of the most convenient and genius plot devices I’ve seen in a while. Literally everything comes back to him and what he’s suppose to do, but his character as a cat is written in such a way where he embodies the wishy-washy nature. They can make the plot do anything they want and just explain it away as Beerus was supposed to take care of it but he just didn’t feel like it and got some mortal to do.

It’s like the biblical Abrahamic equivalent of God.

As far as this debate on Hakaishin in general, my only point was that I hate the fact that for the sake of plot Beerus is training Vegeta in Hakaishin techniques when neither are really cut out to do the job, nor is Vegeta likely to even accept it. Yes it's consistent with both their personalities to do something like this, but man you would think after nearly having their universe erased for having a low mortal level they would understand there's an order to things. These characters never learning their lessons gets tiring and exhausting. It would be nice for universe 7 to get some competent gods for once..

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FiReFTW » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:34 am

Kinokima wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:53 pm
FiReFTW wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:47 pm So its almost release time, and we have almost no spoilers at all?
No spoilers? The entire last few pages have been spoiled
Are you joking, in the previous chapters we got like half the chapter spoilers out, full synopsis out... and this month we have maybe 2 pages total? no synopsis, no nothing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:49 am

FiReFTW wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:34 am
Kinokima wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:53 pm
FiReFTW wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:47 pm So its almost release time, and we have almost no spoilers at all?
No spoilers? The entire last few pages have been spoiled
Are you joking, in the previous chapters we got like half the chapter spoilers out, full synopsis out... and this month we have maybe 2 pages total? no synopsis, no nothing.

Someone posted an entire synopsis a few pages back. It’s mainly the characters fighting so there isn’t anything to discuss. Granolah seems to be having the upper hand and then Vegeta transforms at the end.

Vegeta’s transformation is the biggest spoiler of the chapter. But apparently that amounts to not enough spoilers for you. Even though just that got Vegeta trending on Twitter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Necrosaber » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:12 am

This chapter was fucking fire. Was literally yelling at my phone getting pumped for Vegeta. Excellent build up to the new transformation. I wish it didn't get spoiled.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:14 am

TheMikado wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:06 amIn order to provide a balance to the constantly increasing number of planets, the God of Destruction destroys [them], but he does not act on Kaiōshin’s orders; he destroys according to his own individual judgment. Except, he is capricious, so he will destroy even an important world without a second thought, or when he finds it bothersome, let someone else act as an agent of destruction.
Yes, this is what I've been saying for the last few pages, buckaroo.

Gods of Destruction destroy shit randomly, on whims, and as desired. Their job isn't them choosing to destroy worlds because of ideology, which again, is the issue Beerus had with Zamas. And, again, it was stated in this arc that the techniques of the Gods of Destruction cannot be used/used effectively until you get rid of those notions in your head and only think about destruction. Id.

This is my last reply on this. You clearly read the words, but the interpretations you draw are off the mark. Toriyama says it in plain [translated] English there, yet you're still arguing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gt91 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:19 am

No planet to protect, no people to save. Unbounded power.

That part was great.
Last edited by Gt91 on Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:20 am

Necrosaber wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:12 am This chapter was fucking fire. Was literally yelling at my phone getting pumped for Vegeta. Excellent build up to the new transformation. I wish it didn't get spoiled.
Yeah...not gonna lie, this chapter was pretty fucking great. Despite my worries about this being another simple Goku/Vegeta bout, this chapter really does a great job of differentiating Vegeta's battle style and attitude. Loved that panel of him and Cereal walking around each other and talking shit. Also that shot of Vegeta coughing up blood harkened back to the gory days of DBZ's past.

"There's no Planet to protect,
no people to save.
Just me immersed in battle.
My happy place....
JUST THE THING TO GET A BATTLE-CRAZED SAIYAN'S BLOOD PUMPING!"

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:24 am

This might be one of my favourite pure action chapters of the manga so far. I love how the environment was involved in the battle. Vegeta swimming down the river got a laugh out of me.

I liked the dialogue, too! I’m usually not a fan of the way Toyotaro writes some of the dialogue for characters when they explain their personality, but it worked here with Vegeta.

This is also probably the best cliff hanger I’ve seen in the Super manga. I really like that Goku and Vegeta are going down different paths when it comes to their training. Great stuff!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:24 am

In a vacuum, this chapter is immaculate.

Image

This page in particular. Vegeta's design on these pages referring back to the Saiyan arc where he fought Goku, as he speaks about how it's been ages... that's very good meta-level storytelling. I fucking dig it.

But the second you add the greater context of the arc... this is all pointless. These fights are pointless. Granolah's character has become empty ever since he met these two, with nothing to say or do but be mad about his lost world. It's one-note, and frivolous.

But in a vacuum, the choreography, the characterization, the art, it's all splendid.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:28 am

TKA wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:24 am In a vacuum, this chapter is immaculate.

Image

This page in particular. Vegeta's design on these pages referring back to the Saiyan arc where he fought Goku, as he speaks about how it's been ages... that's very good meta-level storytelling. I fucking dig it.

But the second you add the greater context of the arc... this is all pointless. These fights are pointless. Granolah's character has become empty ever since he met these two, with nothing to say or do but be mad about his lost world. It's one-note, and frivolous.


But in a vacuum, the choreography, the characterization, the art, it's all splendid.
I feel like that's something that can only be said once we get to the finish line of this arc. Honestly, and I think this is true for a majority of Super, these arcs play way better when you can read entire volumes instead of waiting month after month for a measly 20 pages. So you're not wrong that while we still don't know where this is all going to, out of context, this is probably the best chapter of this arc so far, and easily one of the best action-oriented chapters in Super as a whole.

Seriously, Toyotaro gets better and better with the action choreography. Some great stuff here.

Absolutely agreed that Toyotaro is clearly channeling Saiyan-saga era Vegeta for some of those panels. I imagine the "battle crazed blood pumping" one in particular is destined to become a fan favorite.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:29 am

Necrosaber wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:12 am This chapter was fucking fire. Was literally yelling at my phone getting pumped for Vegeta. Excellent build up to the new transformation. I wish it didn't get spoiled.
It’s funny this is one of the best Vegeta fights in awhile and through the entire fight he didn’t have the upper hand except psychologically he kind of did.

But with that type of high I am even more worried about the next chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by eledoremassis02 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:31 am

TKA wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:24 am In a vacuum, this chapter is immaculate.
This page in particular. Vegeta's design on these pages referring back to the Saiyan arc where he fought Goku, as he speaks about how it's been ages... that's very good meta-level storytelling. I fucking dig it.

But the second you add the greater context of the arc... this is all pointless. These fights are pointless. Granolah's character has become empty ever since he met these two, with nothing to say or do but be mad about his lost world. It's one-note, and frivolous.

But in a vacuum, the choreography, the characterization, the art, it's all splendid.
These two pages got me feeling like I was watching/Reading Dragon Ball Z for the first time. Have not felt that way in a long time. Also when Vegeta gets punched in the gut and bends over in pain is a nice callback as well (the page before the ones posted that lead up to these pages).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:31 am

10/10 chapter. Very well drawn, the fight was nice and the dialogue too.
Vegeta was perfectly written this time around, so props to Toyotaro because he reignited the Vegeta fanboy within me.

I don’t mind the new form, I think it looks cool - no eyebrows definitely reminds me of Oozaru and it may be intentional. I wonder if the hair is black or actually a shade of purple/violet or whatever other color. It definitely gives Omen vibes, of there being a perfected version of it.

It seems like based on Vegeta’s dialogue that this fight will end up with Granolah losing, but I am waiting for some sort of plot twist where Granolah escapes somehow and starts training. The story is definitely getting interesting.

The highlight of the chapter for me was the page where Vegeta is all coughing up blood. I loved the art and dialogue there.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:33 am

Ok, I love the role reversal.

This sort of happened in the Moro arc but not really. Goku fought Moro First, Lost, then Vegeta came in and almost won before losing too.


The way this fight is handled feels like its the real fight compared to Goku. Vegeta is having the time of his life, he's the one who's figuring Granolah out. It really makes you wanna root for the guy. I don't wanna get my hopes up but it really feels like he can actually win.

If they mess this up I might drop the manga for good. Toyotaro, Toriyama, You have it right where we want it. Don't mess it up.

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