"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Vegeta's new form reminds me of Mr. Slave who also got pshyched up when sexual stuff happened to him.

[BWri]

Finally, since I know wrestling fans are in this thread:

ALL EGO ETHAN VEGETA

humor for the few people who would get this.

I hate the fact that this was my first thought when I read that line. Been watching too much AEW. Didn't think anyone else would make that connection.

[HeroR]

The way I saw it... Granolah developed a bunch of powers and abilities in the future. But his present self that made the wish doesn't know about all of them.

So basically, Granolah getting the hang of actual battle is "unlocking" skills his body already had, but he wasn't completely aware yet.

Basically a convenient excuse for Toyo to pull any power up whenever he feels Granolah should, really.

All in all, I like that Vegeta's loss was more on the side of his inability to properly control his new state. He gets stronger by taking damage, but damage is still damage and he has a limit to how much punishment he can take. So he hit his limits, despite being pretty much even with Granolah, and dropped out first. What says a lot is that Granolah needed two special eyes to counter Vegeta's blast (dunno why, since he's just seeing better. perhaps he saw a weak spot in the blast and aimed there?). Could Granolah see through a fresh UI Goku with them? He explicitly can't with just one. Food for thought!

People say this fight was even and I have to disagree. Vegeta took a bunch of damage to make himself stronger and was starting to lose consciousness. Granola was barely damage despite taking all those hits.

In short, Vegeta defeated himself. Granola just helped him along.

I disagree, more or less. There were plenty of times that Granolah kept being overwhelmed by Vegeta, and equaly as many where Vegeta took hits on purpose to push himself further despite already showing an advantage. Vegeta defeated himself, but Granolah wasn't exactly on control of the fight either.

People keep saying this, but most of the overwhelming happened when Granola was surprised. Once Vegeta explained how his power worked, he quickly adapted and mocked Vegeta for dodging a blast. Granola despite taking all of Vegeta’s hits was still less battle damage than Vegeta since Vegeta started to get blurry vision.

[TheSaiyanGod]

People keep saying this, but most of the overwhelming happened when Granola was surprised. Once Vegeta explained how his power worked, he quickly adapted and mocked Vegeta for dodging a blast. Granola despite taking all of Vegeta’s hits was still less battle damage than Vegeta since Vegeta started to get blurry vision.

Vegeta just overdid it. He ate all the attacks, even though he could have dodged them (as Granolah later noticed) and even though he had the upper hand in the fight, it backfired. Even when Goku notices that Granolah's movements are sharper while Vegeta was weakening, we see Vegeta having the upper hand in close combat (knocking Granolah into the ground) and saying that he could still get stronger.

I assume since this is the first time he's used this transformation, he ended up miscalculating the amount of damage he could take.

[picc]

Wait, so it turns out, letting yourself get punched in the face ISN'T a good idea???

I don't think taking damage actually makes Vegeta stronger. Seems more like just talking junk in the heat of battle.

Its more likely taking damage invigorates him. It fires him up. That would make sense and be consistent with Vegeta's character. Maybe even makes him fight harder because of the "ego" part of taking it without falling. But it definitely doesn't make him more powerful. That much was obvious by the end.

[Trouser]

This manga is getting worse and worse with every chapter. It's not even about Vegeta (fanboys are crying as always).

[HeroR]

People keep saying this, but most of the overwhelming happened when Granola was surprised. Once Vegeta explained how his power worked, he quickly adapted and mocked Vegeta for dodging a blast. Granola despite taking all of Vegeta’s hits was still less battle damage than Vegeta since Vegeta started to get blurry vision.

Vegeta just overdid it. He ate all the attacks, even though he could have dodged them (as Granolah later noticed) and even though he had the upper hand in the fight, it backfired. Even when Goku notices that Granolah's movements are sharper while Vegeta was weakening, we see Vegeta having the upper hand in close combat (knocking Granolah into the ground) and saying that he could still get stronger.

I assume since this is the first time he's used this transformation, he ended up miscalculating the amount of damage he could take.

He had the upper hand mostly because Granola is a noob who didn’t know what was happening. Once Vegeta cleared things up because he’s hyped up on ego, Granola adjusted. Even ignoring that, Granola still took overall less damage from Vegeta’s attacks while all of Granola’s attacks drew blood. So the form seems to make Vegeta stronger as he gets hyped up, but not more durable.

If this form really runs on being hit, it honestly a let down because it will depend on Vegeta’s ability to tank and close the power gap. If it’s him just getting hype, this is also an issue since Vegeta doesn’t really get hype unless he’s winning or thinks he’s winning. So if Goku ever get over the stamina issue Toyo gave him, he could probably beat the form by dodging Vegeta to frustration and making sure all his attacks count so when Vegeta gets stronger power-wise, his body will be closed to cook.

[VegettoEX]

This manga is getting worse and worse with every chapter. It's not even about Vegeta (fanboys are crying as always).

Can you please explain why? Why don’t you like it? What about its craft is not up to snuff? Dialog? Character beats? Individual pieces of art? Paneling?

Folks, please don’t do a drive-by. Use your words.

[batistabus]

I do enjoy the fighting aspect of DB, and on that front, I really enjoyed this chapter. The back-to-back of 74 and 75 leaves an impact similar to episodes 109 and 110 of the anime. The internet drama only served to bolster that for me.

A DB fight taking place at an archaeological site is pretty damn cool.

Vegeta uses his flame aura as an attack. When I imagine this version of Vegeta as a FighterZ character, I see this as part of his moveset.

Granolla learns about the existence of Gods of Destruction. I wonder if that will have any relevance going forward. In terms of techniques, he seems more inclined toward Wagamama than Migatte. The moments where he blows up the city and tosses away Oatmil work with "destroying" one's stray thoughts.

Speaking of Oatmil, I felt bad for the guy. I did not expect him to be able to move on his own (thanks to the ship), so I'm really looking forward to seeing how that plays out.

I've seen some confusion around how Granolla is able to get stronger despite the fact that Toronbo "drew out his max potential":

1) Granolla wished to be the strongest in the universe at any cost. He didn't wish to be at his max potential because Toronbo told him that wouldn't be enough. This "life force for power" exchange is something beyond potential.

2) While his lifeforce was sacrificed, there's no reason to believe he can't get stronger from that point. Even if you want to interpret his max potential as equal to his lifespan, Granolla was left with 3 years. "Rankings are well and good...but they only reflect a moment in time."

3) Vegeta describes WnG as an "innate power within". Granolla leans that lesson. He lacked experience, and it was through practicing against Vegeta that Granolla unlocked an ability he had all along. He just didn't know how to use it due to a lack of experience.

Granolla summoning a shield in a panic had me laughing.

In the world that we live in now, I'm very happy with "Ultra Ego" as a localization. I see "Ultra Instinct" as a cringe-worthy DBZ-dub-esque name that only minimally conveys the Japanese meaning. Still, if we're dealing with Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego makes a serviceable pair. Regardless, I will continue to call it Wagamame no Gokui, and probably keep hyphenating it for emphasis.

Vegeta taking Granolla's punch on page 20 is a solid contrast to MnG. Damage for power. It is only limited by Vegeta's ability to tolerate a beating. If Vegeta is pushed to the brink of death, I wonder if that would trigger something.

Vegeta fighting without armor is a striking visual moment. Again, I feel that the black-and-white works especially well for the impact of this transformation.

It seems as though Goku is attempting to heal himself. Kinda weird. Generically, I can buy it as a basic ki/chi technique. Is this a God technique? Conceivably, he could've learned it offscreen. Is he just trying to cauterize the wound? Presumably he'll only be able to stabilize himself. Monaito could lend him a hand...

I've seen some compare Vegeta's Hakai ball to Baby Vegeta's "Revenge Death Ball". I see the similarity, but I think the comparison is meant to be Beerus' Hakai ball in Battle of Gods. (It also looks like Goku Black's energy ball, which may also be intentionally similar to Beerus'.)

The explosion on chapter 41 is a surprisingly unique explosion scene and I dig it.

I hope the draft pages next month start off from the Heata perspective.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Enjoyable chapter. Was nice to get a couple of other things than just the action, which was again of very high quality on its own.

I agree with those reading Granolah's development here as 'growing into' the power already granted him by Toronbo, while not disagreeing that functionally, it's a raising of the bar to meet and exceed the power of his challengers. In fact, this probably points up that Goku and Vegeta aren't going to be able to beat him even if they go back to the drawing board and re-train, I think (still less if Gas trumps Granolah's power next and steps into the mix), and this is another variation on the basic plot beat of Goku and/or Vegeta fighting alone at the outset and thereby inadvertently helping the antagonist reach even greater heights of power than they would otherwise. I think Whis has already made clear what Goku and Vegeta need to do to win, in two exchanges in Chapter 71:

Whis: While training, your rivals should be yourselves from the previous day. Work hard to become stronger than your past selves.
Vegeta: ?
Goku: Y-yeah. That's the plan -- to get stronger every day.
Vegeta: We train daily, so naturally we grow stronger. Is this meant to be a nugget of wisdom?

(Followed later by):
Vegeta: Calm down, Lord Beerus. I have no intention of losing to Kakarot.
Goku: You're gonna eat those words.
Whis: Your mutually beneficial rivalry is all well and good...but excess of confidence may be your doom.

In the immediate context of the conversations, it seems merely to read as 'get stronger quick, and don't get cocky', but beyond this, and in light of what we're seeing now, the true significance of Whis's statements may be that Goku and Vegeta each need to regard themselves as the true rivals to be grown beyond, rather than each other - their rivalry has been "mutually beneficial" so far, but now they need to surpass themselves by moving beyond this rivalry (and the 'excess of confidence' that sustains it) to a more productive rivalry with their own selves.

I feel like the manifestation of their Divine Power forms points this up really well - not only do the forms play to Goku and Vegeta's own pasts and personalities (Goku's increasingly perfectible movement and go-with-the-flow mentality; Vegeta's Saiyan Warrior mentality and burning, savage battle spirit), making them even 'more themselves' than usual (that is, realising their own innate natures in how they fight) - but the character, strengths and weaknesses of the forms also seem to be directly complementary with each other. Ultra Instinct moves the body to avoid damage in the first place, whereas Ultra Ego seeks damage to provoke a mental response that enhances the user's power; Ultra Instinct is calm, controlled and precise, whereas Ultra Ego is raw, wild and destructive; etc.

As with the forms, so with the characters, and the innate natures that sustain them. So this complementariness is born from the contrasts in Goku and Vegeta's natures and paths to power and the very fact that they are so different, rather than undergoing the same training, using variations on the same Godly forms, or even mirroring each other perfectly in sync like they did in the Tournament of Power. They look like they're in the process of becoming kind of like a Taijitu, thereby forming a complete response to the kind of developments Granolah is pulling out when they step beyond themselves and their rivalry with each other, and work together as one by means of their stark differences. That this can be foreseen at this point when Granolah is evidencing another kind of oneness that might yet impoverish and hurt him (discarding his only ally in Oatmeel) feels very effective, to me.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this might move forward in the next few chapters.

[YamiGoku]

Ok that wasn't as bad I admit, still, this chapter makes me think I wont like the end of this fight but i'll wait.

something weird, the english name is Ultra Ego but the spanish is Mega instinto( Mega Instinct), as a spanish speaker I like the spanish name a little better but as someone that consumes all media in english I will hear/use Ultra Ego more often.

[TheSaiyanGod]

He had the upper hand mostly because Granola is a noob who didn’t know what was happening. Once Vegeta cleared things up because he’s hyped up on ego, Granola adjusted. Even ignoring that, Granola still took overall less damage from Vegeta’s attacks while all of Granola’s attacks drew blood. So the form seems to make Vegeta stronger as he gets hyped up, but not more durable.

Granolah ultimately needed the fight to awaken his second red eye, which is something entirely different from him just adjusting to the power granted by the dragon (which also happened during the chapter, as Goku mentioned). He even says that it was thanks to Vegeta since he pushed him to that level.

And Vegeta tanked all sorts of attacks, from multiple Ki Blasts to regular hits to multiple simultaneous Hakai applications at point blank / head-on (and in the end, got caught up in the explosion of his own technique). Meanwhile, Granolah only received physical attacks from Vegeta, who had the edge in terms of strength and speed for the whole chapter until the damage became too much for him to handle (and yet Vegeta still had the overall top hand). The damage metric is not really comparable

If this form really runs on being hit, it honestly a let down because it will depend on Vegeta’s ability to tank and close the power gap. If it’s him just getting hype, this is also an issue since Vegeta doesn’t really get hype unless he’s winning or thinks he’s winning. So if Goku ever get over the stamina issue Toyo gave him, he could probably beat the form by dodging Vegeta to frustration and making sure all his attacks count so when Vegeta gets stronger power-wise, his body will be closed to cook.

Vegeta doesn't need to take damage to use his new form. It just serves to boost his power even more because it stirs his spirit, it's a plus / gimmick like Ultra Instinct's auto dodge. The limit of this is just how much damage he is able to take, just like Goku's auto dodge ability reaches its limit when the opponent is strong and fast enough to attack him faster than he can react. In that case if Vegeta gets strong enough to hit Goku, then he could win imo.

[Mr Baggins]

They look like they're in the process of becoming kind of like a Taijitu

It did pretty much immediately remind me of the taijitu; one is of the mind while the other is of the body, both forms are in opposition yet complementary, one tranquil and the other bestial.

I don't know if this was Toriyama's idea or Toyotaro's, but there was clearly a lot of thought put into it all. The fact that UI/UE conceptually fits that duality so well while simultaneously embodying Goku and Vegeta perfectly as characters is nothing short of impressive, but like you said, I'd like to see this put into full effect later so as not to make those previous chapters feel more or less retroactively pointless.

Also, calling it now: Oatmeel will be Granolah's escape route when things go south, ending the arc's first act.

the spanish is Mega instinto( Mega Instinct)

Bad localization, IMO. That just makes it sound like an upgraded version of Goku's technique, which it's not. It's also too far off from the original meaning.

[Koitsukai]

So, is it safe to say that Geets was pounding Granola's full power? except for his second red eye, that is, which doesn't seem to be something Granny was saving for last, but something he "unlocked".

[DiscountDabi]

So, is it safe to say that Geets was pounding Granola's full power? except for his second red eye, that is, which doesn't seem to be something Granny was saving for last, but something he "unlocked".

Yeah I'd say Ultra Ego Vegeta = Full Power Granolah and Granolah with the Double eye is just gonna out skill Vegeta.

[LoganForkHands73]

I kinda dig how Granola has adapted to Vegeta so well and taken everything he said on board, so now he is the one trying to grow through combat to keep up with his enemy. Meanwhile, Vegeta has made a hypocritical error in relying on a transformation he has not yet mastered, exactly what he scrutinised Granola for last chapter. As always, the leaks and drafts didn't paint a full picture. Vegeta's "loss" here isn't even definitive, but I'm actually glad about how it was handled. He went overboard with soaking up the hits, but otherwise he hasn't made any egregious Senzu-like errors. Someone said he would try to teach Hakai to Granola How2Basic style, essentially repeating his mistake against 2nd Form Cell. Unless his destructive mindset explicitly drives him mad beyond normal reasoning, that would be extremely out-of-character for current Vegeta, as well as generally frustrating and unpleasant to read. But luckily, nothing like that happened. Yet.

When it comes to DB fans having an intensely sports-team-stan mindset for supporting characters, that writing's been on the wall ever since Ultra Instinct Goku vs. Full Power Jiren got played for live audiences in public arenas. It's not endemic to Dragon Ball by any means. Remember the Burlington Bar shit with Game of Thrones? r/Freefolk types dunk on that place but I can't bring myself to hate on people harmlessly having a good time. Nevertheless, there must be some interesting articles written about the growing performativity and tribalism of nerd culture fandom, where people get super invested in stanning individual characters to get the desired outcomes they expect. People have made wrestling comparisons in this thread, I wouldn't claim to know or care much about that, but there might be some overlap there between fiction and reality getting blurred, especially since wrestling seems to get more mainstream by the day. From what I've seen about AEW, they seem to take meeting fan expectations pretty seriously (i.e. immediately dropping stables that don't resonate with audiences), an approach I respect somewhat but always get a little wary of whenever I see it, since it seems to breed toxic fan entitlement and risk aversion. But then again, I know nuffin about the ins and outs of it.

[HeroR]

He had the upper hand mostly because Granola is a noob who didn’t know what was happening. Once Vegeta cleared things up because he’s hyped up on ego, Granola adjusted. Even ignoring that, Granola still took overall less damage from Vegeta’s attacks while all of Granola’s attacks drew blood. So the form seems to make Vegeta stronger as he gets hyped up, but not more durable.

Granolah ultimately needed the fight to awaken his second red eye, which is something entirely different from him just adjusting to the power granted by the dragon (which also happened during the chapter, as Goku mentioned). He even says that it was thanks to Vegeta since he pushed him to that level.

And Vegeta tanked all sorts of attacks, from multiple Ki Blasts to regular hits to multiple simultaneous Hakai applications at point blank / head-on (and in the end, got caught up in the explosion of his own technique). Meanwhile, Granolah only received physical attacks from Vegeta, who had the edge in terms of strength and speed for the whole chapter until the damage became too much for him to handle (and yet Vegeta still had the overall top hand). The damage metric is not really comparable

If this form really runs on being hit, it honestly a let down because it will depend on Vegeta’s ability to tank and close the power gap. If it’s him just getting hype, this is also an issue since Vegeta doesn’t really get hype unless he’s winning or thinks he’s winning. So if Goku ever get over the stamina issue Toyo gave him, he could probably beat the form by dodging Vegeta to frustration and making sure all his attacks count so when Vegeta gets stronger power-wise, his body will be closed to cook.

Vegeta doesn't need to take damage to use his new form. It just serves to boost his power even more because it stirs his spirit, it's a plus / gimmick like Ultra Instinct's auto dodge. The limit of this is just how much damage he is able to take, just like Goku's auto dodge ability reaches its limit when the opponent is strong and fast enough to attack him faster than he can react. In that case if Vegeta gets strong enough to hit Goku, then he could win imo.

Except he was taking hits from Vegeta before his second eye awakened and still doing better than Vegeta who started to get blurry eyed. This isn’t the sign of an even match when both fighters are getting hit and one is taking more damage.

And people are once again using tank wrong. Vegeta tanked nothing. All of Granolah‘s are clearly hurting Vegeta to the point he was bleeding. Tanking means taking no damage at all like how Frieza tried to Death Beam Super Saiyan Goku. And Granolah still withstood damage better than Vegeta when they were punching the crap out of each other. Heck, despite Vegeta beating Granolah up for most of the chapter, Vegeta still looks more tired.

So he does need to hit to get stronger. That and UI does more than auto-dodge since it also auto-harden the body.

I think you mean fast enough to hit UI. Being strong and fast are two different things. And it’s hard to say how fast Vegeta is since he went ‘dodging is for suckers’.

[theherodjl]

So, is it safe to say that Geets was pounding Granola's full power? except for his second red eye, that is, which doesn't seem to be something Granny was saving for last, but something he "unlocked".

I would've said that Granolah was stronger from the leaks but considering now that Vegeta intentionally let Granolah get in as many hits and deal as much damage as possible, I'd say that Vegeta is stronger. Allowing your opponent to harm you and subsequently lower your Ki is a pretty bad strategy when you have the advantage.

[HeroR]

They look like they're in the process of becoming kind of like a Taijitu

It did pretty much immediately remind me of the taijitu; one is of the mind while the other is of the body, both forms are in opposition yet complementary, one tranquil and the other bestial.

I don't know if this was Toriyama's idea or Toyotaro's, but there was clearly a lot of thought put into it all. The fact that UI/UE conceptually fits that duality so well while simultaneously embodying Goku and Vegeta perfectly as characters is nothing short of impressive, but like you said, I'd like to see this put into full effect later so as not to make those previous chapters feel more or less retroactively pointless.

Also, calling it now: Oatmeel will be Granolah's escape route when things go south, ending the arc's first act.

the spanish is Mega instinto( Mega Instinct)

Bad localization, IMO. That just makes it sound like an upgraded version of Goku's technique, which it's not. It's also too far off from the original meaning.

The problem is that UI, more specifically mushin (no thought), is both body and mind. It’s your body learning to fully function on its own by practicing so much that it becomes second nature. Like how you learned to walk, read, or drive a car. You start with the mind and reach the point where it becomes so natural that the mind isn’t needed anymore.

Vegeta’s form isn’t really based on anything like. It reads like an amp version of what Black did in the anime. That and the concept of purposely taking damage is self-destructive. Especially since it seems Vegeta’s power goes up, but not his endurance. So like what happened with Granolah, he can take too much damage before he can really get going or be just useless fighting someone who can one-shot like anime Hit. Unless the form is actually an extreme version of hyping yourself up, like how you talk trash to someone to get into their heads and talk yourself up so you can mentally prepare to back it. Which would fit the whole mind thing going for Vegeta.

[TheMikado]

Finally, since I know wrestling fans are in this thread:

ALL EGO ETHAN VEGETA

humor for the few people who would get this.

I hate the fact that this was my first thought when I read that line. Been watching too much AEW. Didn't think anyone else would make that connection.

I thought this was a joke panel? Is this real? It can’t be??