What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

[Hugo Boss]

Everything that Koitsukai said. I would just add that UE is probably a way to justify why Beerus isn’t being surpassed so far, after so much foreshadowing. And as Whis revealed to Goku, the angels have different levels of mastery over UI. So, I would say the same could be assumed for the Gods of Destruction. Maybe Vermoud is not so much of a master over UE like Beerus is. Though, considering Toppo didn’t say Jiren was stronger than Vermoud without making it specifically about battle power, you can assume Vermoud has means to make a fight very difficult for Jiren.

What does him having UE have anything to do with Beerus and Jiren? We know all destroyers have it and if one of them isn’t a master of them they couldn’t be a destroyer. Belmod and Beerus have the same level of control over UE it’s just which one is better. Nothing implies that Beerus is above Quitella and Belmod so I don’t know where you got that from. And the bonus page and Belmods confidence in Jiren means he can’t physically do anything to Jiren even with Hakai.

Do you mind dropping that straw man approach, please? I’m just saying that if angels have different levels of mastery over ultra instinct, it’s not so hard to imagine the same could be said about gods of destruction. We don’t have a clue about who is the most proficient or if that’s even a requirement to be a God of Destruction. Toppo at least doesn’t have it or didn’t learn it in time for the tournament of power.

Besides, I never said Beerus is stronger than Quitela. But for sure both are stronger than Vermoud. This has been explained multiple times to you in detail in the other threads.

[KentMan]

Do you mind dropping that straw man approach, please? I’m just saying that if angels have different levels of mastery over ultra instinct, it’s not so hard to imagine the same could be said about gods of destruction. We don’t have a clue about who is the most proficient or if that’s even a requirement to be a God of Destruction. Toppo at least doesn’t have it or didn’t learn it in time for the tournament of power.

Besides, I never said Beerus is stronger than Quitela. But for sure both are stronger than Vermoud. This has been explained multiple times to you in detail in the other threads.

Both for sure? Not it was confirmed? As far as anyone knows there hasn’t been any statements as of yet as to who’s the strongest destroyer. I suspected Belmod based on his performance and confidence. You can’t put guides and destroyers as the same because the only ones mention of having levels of mastery is Merus a trainee, Whis a master, and Grand Priest who’s above a master. The destroyers are in a weird sense relative with some being better than most.

[Hugo Boss]

Both for sure? Not it was confirmed? As far as anyone knows there hasn’t been any statements as of yet as to who’s the strongest destroyer.

Yes, pretty much. Really. I don’t know why you are being so needless pedantic about it, and pardon me if this sounds repetitive, but subtext is a pretty safe way of assuming who is stronger than who.

Vermoud < Jiren < Moro < Goku < Granolah < Gas < Beerus

It’s absurd to think the manga has made Beerus so much stronger than a fellow god of destruction, I personally don’t like this idea, but it is what it is, unfortunately.

[KentMan]

Both for sure? Not it was confirmed? As far as anyone knows there hasn’t been any statements as of yet as to who’s the strongest destroyer.

Yes, pretty much. Really. I don’t know why you are being so needless pedantic about it, and pardon me if this sounds repetitive, but subtext is a pretty safe way of assuming who is stronger than who.

Vermoud < Jiren < Moro < Goku < Granolah < Gas < Beerus

It’s absurd to think the manga has made Beerus so much stronger than a fellow god of destruction, I personally don’t like this idea, but it is what it is, unfortunately.

And I’m telling ya that I don’t see anything that shows or says that Beerus is stronger than the other destroyers. It all hints to Belmod and what he has done. He wasn’t bleeding like Beerus and Quitella both of whom were injured. Jiren is stronger than him and he was said to be above destroyers. Broly is a maybe stronger than Beerus not sure about him. Moro 73 I have no idea Granolah and Gas if they’re weaker than Beerus than they’re weaker than Jiren and Broly.

[Hugo Boss]

Not trying to sound condescending here, but do you know what subtext means? It’s when we don’t have direct comparisons between two characters in a battle shonen fiction, but we can infer who is stronger than who by how they perform against common characters or when multiple common characters are compared, even if not in the same sentence.

Probably without reading Moro and Granolah arc you wouldn’t reach the conclusion that Beerus is stronger than Vermoud. Believe me, this community always had divided opinions on the subject, because their fight had ambiguous implications. Dragon Ball Super movie #1 only added more fuel to the fire, but right now it’s a pretty safe position to have.

And for the sake of clarification, in the manga continuity Jiren was never said to be stronger than all the gods of destruction, this is a misconception. He was only said to be stronger than Vermoud, and purely on battle power aspect. If you have been following our interactions until now you will see battle power isn’t the only deciding factor in a fight. Granolah and Gas have a lot of twists about that. Check the last chapters. The second misconception is that Broly is a maybe/probably stronger than Beerus’ case, he is not anymore. When Goku confirmed Moro was stronger than Jiren and Broly and when Beerus was confirmed to be stronger than Moro, that case was closed. Goku had so many baffled reactions to Beerus’ power during their training sessions in Granolah arc that he pretty much confirmed he has no idea about how formidable Beerus really is.

[KentMan]

Not trying to sound condescending here, but do you know what subtext means? It’s when we don’t have direct comparisons between two characters in a battle shonen fiction, but we can infer who is stronger than who by how they perform against common characters or when multiple common characters are compared, even if not in the same sentence.

Probably without reading Moro and Granolah arc you wouldn’t reach the conclusion that Beerus is stronger than Vermoud. Believe me, this community always had divided opinions on the subject, because their fight had ambiguous implications. Dragon Ball Super movie #1 only added more fuel to the fire, but right now it’s a pretty safe position to have.

And for the sake of clarification, in the manga continuity Jiren was never said to be stronger than all the gods of destruction, this is a misconception. He was only said to be stronger than Vermoud, and purely on battle power aspect. If you have been following our interactions until now you will see battle power isn’t the only deciding factor in a fight. Granolah and Gas have a lot of twists about that. Check the last chapters. The second misconception is that Broly is a maybe/probably stronger than Beerus’ case, he is not anymore. When Goku confirmed Moro was stronger than Jiren and Broly and when Beerus was confirmed to be stronger than Moro, that case was closed. Goku had so many baffled reactions to Beerus’ power during their training sessions in Granolah arc that he pretty much confirmed he has no idea about how formidable Beerus really is.

Dragon Ball Super Movie 1??? Now that’s a movie I’ve never heard of. Don’t know what safe position you have with it though. Jiren power is greater than a destroyer and as mentioned by one that had an impressive showing. The other destroyers had heard rumors about him and were sweating too. As far as battle power goes Belmod still can’t beat Jiren on a fight as he himself was worried that he wouldn’t fight in the TOP. Broly is still in the maybe stronger than Beerus case thanks to our weird hair pal. I don’t think I ever hear Goku say if Moro was stronger than Jiren or Broly. He just says tougher and he didn’t have Merus ability yet. As for Goku one reaction to him destroying a planet in chapter 69 was clarified by Herms as he says it’s Goku just reacting to his violent and unpredictable personality. The translation for that comes off as “Lord Beerus sure is scary after all”.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t know why you keep responding to subjects I already clarified in other threads. But let’s do this again. Don’t mix up continuities. The anime continuity is the one in which Jiren couldn’t be defeated by Vermoud. This is a different verbatim used in the manga, in which he was only said to have greater power. Not that I care about which one would win a fight, but this distinction might interest you. If anything the gods of destruction didn’t feel personally threatened by Jiren’s strength, but having a so strong player in another team in a tournament they would cease to exist if their team lost might tell something.

Dragon Ball Super movie #1 is the one with Bardock and Broly in it. What Goku said there about Beerus, if you don’t want to rationalize it further, it’s simply a case of retcon, in the light of the recent reveals. You don’t get to twist what Goku said about Moro just to fit this line in whatever conception you have about Broly right now. Broly isn’t as much of a challenge as Moro is, plain and simple.

[KentMan]

I don’t know why you keep responding to subjects I already clarified in other threads. But let’s do this again. Don’t mix up continuities. The anime continuity is the one in which Jiren couldn’t be defeated by Vermoud. This is a different verbatim used in the manga, in which he was only said to have greater power. Not that I care about which one would win a fight, but this distinction might interest you. If anything the gods of destruction didn’t feel personally threatened by Jiren’s strength, but having a so strong player in another team in a tournament they would cease to exist if their team lost might tell something.

Dragon Ball Super movie #1 is the one with Bardock and Broly in it. What Goku said there about Beerus, if you don’t want to rationalize it further, it’s simply a case of retcon, in the light of the recent reveals. You don’t get to twist what Goku said about Moro just to fit this line in whatever conception you have about Broly right now. Broly isn’t as much of a challenge as Moro is, plain and simple.

Well Jiren doesn’t want the job of destroyer and he’s friends with one of them sort of. It’s not like he disagrees with what they do I assume. I didn’t twist anything I just use what Herms said on the subject that’s on his twitter. Where tough could mean many things. I don’t know how strong exactly Moro 73 is so there’s that. Broly being probably stronger than Beerus wasn’t changed. I know this because Gokus Bio in Super Super hero has Broly and Jiren mentioned no Beerus. You can read it for yourself and wonder that it’s just Uchida opinion about what he thinks.

[Koitsukai]

Ok, let's forget pretty much everything that happened up until the new arc. We still have the dragon say that they'll make Granola the strongest in the universe besides the gods, that's our boy Beerus and of course his attendant, Whis.
That puts Granny above everybody, Broly included, anybody but Beerus, and by Whis' words there was nobody in U7 stronger than Goku and Vegeta, that means Broly, too. And now a new character is above Granny, and probably below Beerus because the dragon cannot top Beerus.

I also bought the movie's statement about Broly, don't get me wrong, it made perfect sense, but there has been way too many developments that downplay Broly's power compared to the current levels and hype Beerus', so I had to let go that ambiguous opinion Goku, not even himself was 100% sure about, had many arcs ago, or nothing would make sense going forward, I would have to stop believing what the story was blatantly telling me through gods, angels and dragons and side with a ningen that really had no idea what he was talking about.

About Uchida, it's simple in my eyes, he is a Broly fan and knows he has lot of potential and probably can rival Beerus after he's undergone the training regime what Goku has. But the story is clear about the strongest guy in U7 which Broly is a part of.

The divine beings you mention could also refer to Kaioshins. It unknown what the dragon means. As for Goku he did see Beerus fight at full power in the zen exhibition match. And him saying that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus holds a lot of weight. And matches what he saw Beerus do in the manga compared to the anime. If Uchida was wrong Toyotaro or Toriyama would have corrected him they didn’t as far as anyone knows.

We know the kaioshins, kaios and regular gods weren't part of Toronbo's comment, come on, we are not attorneys looking for loopholes... the story is explictly proving Goku wrong. 'Probably' is still not definite, it's the clause they inserted so they could keep having Beerus above everybody.
If not, how can you explain Broly not being mentioned AT ALL in all these "strongest in the universe" talks? Broly is part of U7. Besides, supplementary material before this arc landed, had Goku as the strongest in the universe. Vampa is at the edge of the universe but still part of U7.

[Hugo Boss]

I didn’t twist anything I just use what Herms said on the subject that’s on his twitter. Where tough could mean many things. I don’t know how strong exactly Moro 73 is so there’s that.

Herms’ input on this subject is from a year-old thread in Reddit. Check what I said in the Dragon Ball Super Strength thread.

Broly being probably stronger than Beerus wasn’t changed. I know this because Gokus Bio in Super Super hero has Broly and Jiren mentioned no Beerus. You can read it for yourself and wonder that it’s just Uchida opinion about what he thinks.

This is what Goku’s character bio says..

Spoiler:

Goku – A Saiyan raised on Earth. He is still improving after his battles with Jiren and Broly! He is currently training under Whis.

This is not news. If anything it’s just a hint that movie #2 is not touching on Moro and Granolah’s storylines. The tidbit about Beerus being stronger than Broly comes from reading Moro and Granolah arcs in conjunction.

[KentMan]

We know the kaioshins, kaios and regular gods weren't part of Toronbo's comment, come on, we are not attorneys looking for loopholes... the story is explictly proving Goku wrong. 'Probably' is still not definite, it's the clause they inserted so they could keep having Beerus above everybody.
If not, how can you explain Broly not being mentioned AT ALL in all these "strongest in the universe" talks? Broly is part of U7. Besides, supplementary material before this arc landed, had Goku as the strongest in the universe. Vampa is at the edge of the universe but still part of U7.

We don’t really know what deities were excluded except for Zeno the GP and his kids. And I already mentioned that Granolah other wish involves his years of living. So the amount of potential that is accumulated and multiplied is dependent on his years. Whether it made him stronger than Beerus is pretty ambiguous. Broly being probably stronger than Beerus wasn’t proven wrong as of this post. You’re right that Broly wasn’t mentioned as being the strongest in the universe Granolah was. So if that’s the case it would mean Granolah is stronger than Beerus because Broly was compared to him.

[KentMan]

Spoiler:

Goku – A Saiyan raised on Earth. He is still improving after his battles with Jiren and Broly! He is currently training under Whis.

This is not news. If anything it’s just a hint that movie #2 is not touching on Moro and Granolah’s storylines. The tidbit about Beerus being stronger than Broly comes from reading Moro and Granolah arcs in conjunction.

I wouldn’t jump the gun on that Granolah is still ongoing and they’re spoilers for the movie. As for the bio clearly it refers to Jiren and Broly in the same sentence. And as I’ve said I have yet to see the manga or Uchida Toyotaro agreeing with your thoughts.

[Koitsukai]

We know the kaioshins, kaios and regular gods weren't part of Toronbo's comment, come on, we are not attorneys looking for loopholes... the story is explictly proving Goku wrong. 'Probably' is still not definite, it's the clause they inserted so they could keep having Beerus above everybody.
If not, how can you explain Broly not being mentioned AT ALL in all these "strongest in the universe" talks? Broly is part of U7. Besides, supplementary material before this arc landed, had Goku as the strongest in the universe. Vampa is at the edge of the universe but still part of U7.

We don’t really know what deities were excluded except for Zeno the GP and his kids. And I already mentioned that Granolah other wish involves his years of living. So the amount of potential that is accumulated and multiplied is dependent on his years. Whether it made him stronger than Beerus is pretty ambiguous. Broly being probably stronger than Beerus wasn’t proven wrong as of this post. You’re right that Broly wasn’t mentioned as being the strongest in the universe Granolah was. So if that’s the case it would mean Granolah is stronger than Beerus because Broly was compared to him.

We do, actually. Granny asked to be the strongest in the universe, no the multiverse, so the GP, Zeno, Vermoud and Quitela weren't part of the equation, but Broly, Beerus, Goku and Vegeta were. Therefore, only the gods above Goku, that is Beerus and Whis.
It isn't as complicated or ambiguous as you're making it, really.
Beerus is still above Vegeta, he implies as much when he accepts the hakai technique is still too new for him, who was on par with the strongest in the universe for a moment

Again, the problem is having Beerus and Broly as an item. They are not. Broly was tough as nails... right? that endurance, he couldn't touch Gogeta, but could endure a lot... so Moro can endure even more.

There isn't much I can say, I mean, you are arguing against the narrative, the plot and the dragon, and you base argument is a throw away comment of a guy that wasn't even sure about his opinion.

[KentMan]

We do, actually. Granny asked to be the strongest in the universe, no the multiverse, so the GP, Zeno, Vermoud and Quitela weren't part of the equation, but Broly, Beerus, Goku and Vegeta were. Therefore, only the gods above Goku, that is Beerus and Whis.
It isn't as complicated or ambiguous as you're making it, really.
Beerus is still above Vegeta, he implies as much when he accepts the hakai technique is still too new for him, who was on par with the strongest in the universe for a moment

Again, the problem is having Beerus and Broly as an item. They are not. Broly was tough as nails... right? that endurance, he couldn't touch Gogeta, but could endure a lot... so Moro can endure even more.

There isn't much I can say, I mean, you are arguing against the narrative, the plot and the dragon, and you base argument is a throw away comment of a guy that wasn't even sure about his opinion.

Yes it would include the Kai’s that also live in universe 7. Your own logic is being used against your own statement. As for Vegeta his lack of control doesn’t equate to being weaker. But like i said it’s speculation at most.

I have no idea what the difference of power between Moro and Broly is so it’s a mystery for now. But I do know that Uchida lumped Beerus and Broly together. And was as far as anyone knows wasn’t corrected by Toyotaro. Even the interview itself is ambiguous as to what Toyotaro says regarding Goku and Beerus. But that’s for a separate discussion

[Koitsukai]

We do, actually. Granny asked to be the strongest in the universe, no the multiverse, so the GP, Zeno, Vermoud and Quitela weren't part of the equation, but Broly, Beerus, Goku and Vegeta were. Therefore, only the gods above Goku, that is Beerus and Whis.
It isn't as complicated or ambiguous as you're making it, really.
Beerus is still above Vegeta, he implies as much when he accepts the hakai technique is still too new for him, who was on par with the strongest in the universe for a moment

Again, the problem is having Beerus and Broly as an item. They are not. Broly was tough as nails... right? that endurance, he couldn't touch Gogeta, but could endure a lot... so Moro can endure even more.

There isn't much I can say, I mean, you are arguing against the narrative, the plot and the dragon, and you base argument is a throw away comment of a guy that wasn't even sure about his opinion.

Yes it would include the Kai’s that also live in universe 7. Your own logic is being used against your own statement. As for Vegeta his lack of control doesn’t equate to being weaker. But like i said it’s speculation at most.

I have no idea what the difference of power between Moro and Broly is so it’s a mystery for now. But I do know that Uchida lumped Beerus and Broly together. And was as far as anyone knows wasn’t corrected by Toyotaro. Even the interview itself is ambiguous as to what Toyotaro says regarding Goku and Beerus. But that’s for a separate discussion

Not at all, your logic now implies that Shin is above Granola.

If out-of-universe statements come into play, and somehow have more meaning to you than what the narrative says, then what about V-Jump calling Goku the strongest ningen in U7 after the Moro arc, where also Broly lives? or did Broly move out?

[KentMan]

Not at all, your logic now implies that Shin is above Granola.

If out-of-universe statements come into play, and somehow have more meaning to you than what the narrative says, then what about V-Jump calling Goku the strongest ningen in U7 after the Moro arc, where also Broly lives? or did Broly move out?

That isn’t my logic it’s yours the dragon doesn’t just exclude certain deities except for the Zeno the GP and his kids. Unless there’s a mortal that has potential to Surpass them now or in the future. Zeno probably won’t be surpass I think . But never mind that

V jump statement wasn’t wrong Goku at the time was the strongest in the universe. Who knows if he’ll regain the title. As to whether Goku is stronger than Beerus was more of a mystery to me than anything else.

[Koitsukai]

Not at all, your logic now implies that Shin is above Granola.

If out-of-universe statements come into play, and somehow have more meaning to you than what the narrative says, then what about V-Jump calling Goku the strongest ningen in U7 after the Moro arc, where also Broly lives? or did Broly move out?

That isn’t my logic it’s yours the dragon doesn’t just exclude certain deities except for the Zeno the GP and his kids. Unless there’s a mortal that has potential to Surpass them now or in the future. Zeno probably won’t be surpass I think . But never mind that

V jump statement wasn’t wrong Goku at the time was the strongest in the universe. Who knows if he’ll regain the title. As to whether Goku is stronger than Beerus was more of a mystery to me than anything else.

It's the logic of Granola's wish, not mine. He asked to be the strongest in his universe, that's why there's no reason to include Zeno and the other angels, lol. He is not asking to surpass them. You are actually disputing what the narrative says.

If you accept that statement, you accept Goku surpassed Broly, and Moro also did, because he was on par with Goku when he got Merus' UI and the statement is from before starting to train with Whis in this arc. And you also accept that having being described as a ningen meant that non-ningen Beerus is still above him, so Broly = Beerus no longer applies.

[KentMan]

It's the logic of Granola's wish, not mine. He asked to be the strongest in his universe, that's why there's no reason to include Zeno and the other angels, lol. He is not asking to surpass them. You are actually disputing what the narrative says.

If you accept that statement, you accept Goku surpassed Broly, and Moro also did, because he was on par with Goku when he got Merus' UI and the statement is from before starting to train with Whis in this arc. And you also accept that having being described as a ningen meant that non-ningen Beerus is still above him, so Broly = Beerus no longer applies.

I’m not disputing the narrative I’m disputing the fact that Granolah being stronger than Beerus is dependent on his potential years.

The statement was made by an official company not fans of the series. Nothing that I have been reading from you about Broly not equaling or probably not stronger than Beerus is right. You have V jump and then you have Uchida and Toyotaro all that is official especially Toyotaro.

[Koitsukai]

It's the logic of Granola's wish, not mine. He asked to be the strongest in his universe, that's why there's no reason to include Zeno and the other angels, lol. He is not asking to surpass them. You are actually disputing what the narrative says.

If you accept that statement, you accept Goku surpassed Broly, and Moro also did, because he was on par with Goku when he got Merus' UI and the statement is from before starting to train with Whis in this arc. And you also accept that having being described as a ningen meant that non-ningen Beerus is still above him, so Broly = Beerus no longer applies.

I’m not disputing the narrative I’m disputing the fact that Granolah being stronger than Beerus is dependent on his potential years.

The statement was made by an official company not fans of the series. Nothing that I have been reading from you about Broly not equaling or probably not stronger than Beerus is right. You have V jump and then you have Uchida and Toyotaro all that is official especially Toyotaro.

I see that you base most of your argument on that Uchida comment on that interview... and on Toyotaro not being rude enough to tell him "no... Broly nooo... you are wrong, he is fodder by now"... and also not paying much attention to the end of the interview when Toyo clearly says the three strongest in the universe are duking it out, with Broly not being on planet Cereal at all, and Beerus being above them due to being a god.

And you literally are disputing the narrative, it's not rocket science, now Granola stands above everybody but the gods.. your logic somehow think it includes Shin, Dende, Beerus, Quitela, and people from other universes even though the wish was about UNIVERSE 7.

However you wanna see it, Beerus is still a god and above Granola, the wish said so... Broly is not a god, and not stronger than Granola according to the narrative and Toyotaro, so yeah, you are disputing the narrative.

[Thani]

I honestly won't even try to deconstruct the logic on the wish because it would be just dumb.

I'll just flat out say that Toyo (and Tori) envisioned this arc with Beerus still on top, otherwise they wouldn't reinforce this hierarchy in the wish itself, and that's that.

The logistic of the wish has some problems tbh, but it won't change the canon anyway. So we should just roll with it.