Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[PurestEvil]

I've been looking 'round the online DB internet circles, and I am astounded by the amount of people who think Bardock achieved some sort of form in his fight with Gas. Like, really? "False Super Saiyan"? His aura barely changed, let alone his body's appearance.

[nato25]

I've been looking 'round the online DB internet circles, and I am astounded by the amount of people who think Bardock achieved some sort of form in his fight with Gas. Like, really? "False Super Saiyan"? His aura barely changed, let alone his body's appearance.

I guess people are looking for any reason to justify Bardock's win haha. When the enemy was already winning, transforms twice and still somehow loses because the protagonist only thinks about victory, I guess a new form is the only justification, especially in this series with such precedent.

I don't believe he acquired a new form or power up by any means though.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I guess people are looking for any reason to justify Bardock's win haha. When the enemy was already winning, transforms twice and still somehow loses because the protagonist only thinks about victory, I guess a new form is the only justification, especially in this series with such precedent.

Really, I feel that for this series, the relevant precedent here is likeliest to be Chapter 39.

In any case, it's amusing to think that in a 'martial arts' comic series replete with totally impossible and contrived nonsense power-ups, the one time that we're presented with a state of mind that actually might make a blind bit of difference in the outcome of a real fight is also the time the Dragon Ball fanbase goes "GWUHHH?!?"

[Cipher]

Really, I feel that for this series, the relevant precedent here is likeliest to be Chapter 39.

In any case, it's amusing to think that in a 'martial arts' comic series replete with totally impossible and contrived nonsense power-ups, the one time that we're presented with a state of mind that actually might make a blind bit of difference in the outcome of a real fight is also the time the Dragon Ball fanbase goes "GWUHHH?!?"

Gaining advantage because of your head is more in the game/you're more focused is a tried-and-true martial-arts fiction trope (and not even all that novel in DB, considering it's essentially the mechanic behind the Earth-based warriors' Scouter-defying ki manipulation), but having to account for mindset does tend to throw a wrench into mathematical who-could-beat-who discussions, so don't expect to see it too readily embraced.

[Koitsukai]

Isn't this a perfect example of the concepts of shouki and yuuki in action?

A perfect balance of a brave heart and the right mindset and decent energy seem to be enough to overpower a guy with more energy but with a waning mindset and self doubts. Gas was starting to get frustrated and moving away from the right mindset (going WHY WHY WHY like Terminator).

[Jiren The Alpha]

I've been looking 'round the online DB internet circles, and I am astounded by the amount of people who think Bardock achieved some sort of form in his fight with Gas. Like, really? "False Super Saiyan"? His aura barely changed, let alone his body's appearance.

Exactly, that's a new form

[capsulecorp]

Do people still think this arc is going to end in a month or two? I remember a lot of people seemed to think this chapter would be the end of the story, or at least get into a "big finale"... though, I have to admit, I don't know WHY they thought that.

[Koitsukai]

Do people still think this arc is going to end in a month or two? I remember a lot of people seemed to think this chapter would be the end of the story, or at least get into a "big finale"... though, I have to admit, I don't know WHY they thought that.

Because back in december, Toyo, or his editor, said we were pretty much at the climax of the arc. Five months later, we are not even close to that.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Do people still think this arc is going to end in a month or two? I remember a lot of people seemed to think this chapter would be the end of the story, or at least get into a "big finale"... though, I have to admit, I don't know WHY they thought that.

Because back in december, Toyo, or his editor, said we were pretty much at the climax of the arc. Five months later, we are not even close to that.

It was the editor, Victory Uchida - he also repeated that basic message in following months, acknowledging that it might come as a surprise. While all he technically said in those comments were a) that the arc would end this year and a new arc would follow, and b) the fight was approaching its climax, fans naturally linked this up with the release of Super Hero, as the next natural on-boarding point given that the movie is a new story in itself.

I'm coming to the decided conclusion that his little uncalled-for announcement is by far the worst thing about this arc - it needlessly messed with the expectations of the readership (and for that tiny portion of the readership that participates here at Kanzenshuu, tipped the tone of discussion about the arc firmly towards the negative), for what appears at this time to be a completely obscure reason.

[fleahop]

Do people still think this arc is going to end in a month or two? I remember a lot of people seemed to think this chapter would be the end of the story, or at least get into a "big finale"... though, I have to admit, I don't know WHY they thought that.

Because back in december, Toyo, or his editor, said we were pretty much at the climax of the arc. Five months later, we are not even close to that.

It was the editor, Victory Uchida - he also repeated that basic message in following months, acknowledging that it might come as a surprise. While all he technically said in those comments were a) that the arc would end this year and a new arc would follow, and b) the fight was approaching its climax, fans naturally linked this up with the release of Super Hero, as the next natural on-boarding point given that the movie is a new story in itself.

I'm coming to the decided conclusion that his little uncalled-for announcement is by far the worst thing about this arc - it needlessly messed with the expectations of the readership (and for that tiny portion of the readership that participates here at Kanzenshuu, tipped the tone of discussion about the arc firmly towards the negative), for what appears at this time to be a completely obscure reason.

This is something of an issue I have with promotion of Dragon Ball material and especially Victory Uchida's comments. In the context as a North American reader, I can almost never take their statements with any seriousness. I do not know if it's because I'm getting older or if it's because they're set in their "hype hype hype" ways but it does lead to these issues. I also notice Toriyama doesn't really do it so bad and Uchida goes way too far. Honestly I can't think of a thing a really like about Uchida. I feel like he's a glorified editor that should leave the manga or actually be an editor.

I truly don't believe the manga and the movie will do anything to acknowledge each other outside of maybe a nod and some promotion. In this I mean that I expect the timelines to not add up or influence each other. Kinda feels like the movies are going back to Toei's Z movies being unrelated except that Toriyama is in the kitchen now.

[nato25]

I guess people are looking for any reason to justify Bardock's win haha. When the enemy was already winning, transforms twice and still somehow loses because the protagonist only thinks about victory, I guess a new form is the only justification, especially in this series with such precedent.

Really, I feel that for this series, the relevant precedent here is likeliest to be Chapter 39.

In any case, it's amusing to think that in a 'martial arts' comic series replete with totally impossible and contrived nonsense power-ups, the one time that we're presented with a state of mind that actually might make a blind bit of difference in the outcome of a real fight is also the time the Dragon Ball fanbase goes "GWUHHH?!?"

Chapter 39 where gohan fights kefla on equal footing? Also a strange choice given how dominant potara always has been but I don't find that as bad as what's presented here.

What springs to my mind as a comparable point is how hollow trunks victory over zamasu was (in the anime at least, I'm struggling to remember the manga events). Random powerup, random technique, just felt so unsatisfying. Same here in my opinion.

I'll contrast that to when Goku first achieved ultra instinct sign and how i could remember episode 5 where he dodged Beerus attack and how happy whis was for him. That felt amazing and was a great emotional pay-off. Now not everything needs to have the whole series building up to a moment to achieve payoff, but I feel they key to a good feeling victory is at least some sort of 'effort' on the shoulders of the protagonist or some foreshadowing at the very least.

[Mr Baggins]

Chapter 39 where gohan fights kefla on equal footing?

I think the "precedent" being referred to there is Roshi vs. Jiren, which... ehhhhh, I find disputable.

Roshi used a rudimentary version of Ultra Instinct against a suppressed Jiren, and even then only lasted for a few seconds until Jiren promptly adjusted his power again and lightly tapped him out of the ring.

Gas was overwhelmingly stronger than Bardock even before transforming, was trying to literally kill him, proceeded to then transform twice and give him the beatdown of his life, then Bardock suddenly closes all those gaps because... because of grit, or something. Geez, that sure would have been a useful ability for our Saiyan heroes to have in the original, huh? I guess they just weren't determined enough.

Dude, I don't even know anymore. There's so much absurd bullshit in this chapter that either breaks the series entirely or comes dangerously close to doing so, and that's already on top of it being Bardock wank hour. This is officially in "Super anime" territory for me.

Hopefully the next arc is better.

[Issei189]

Chapter 39 where gohan fights kefla on equal footing?

I think the "precedent" being referred to there is Roshi vs. Jiren, which... ehhhhh, I find disputable.

Roshi used a rudimentary version of Ultra Instinct against a suppressed Jiren, and even then only lasted for a few seconds until Jiren promptly adjusted his power again and lightly tapped him out of the ring.

Gas was overwhelmingly stronger than Bardock even before transforming, was trying to literally kill him, proceeded to then transform twice and give him the beatdown of his life, then Bardock suddenly closes all those gaps because... because of grit, or something. Geez, that sure would have been a useful ability for our Saiyan heroes to have in the original, huh? I guess they just weren't determined enough.

Dude, I don't even know anymore. There's so much absurd bullshit in this chapter that either breaks the series entirely or comes dangerously close to doing so, and that's already on top of it being Bardock wank hour. This is officially in "Super anime" territory for me.

Hopefully the next arc is better.

Unrelated, but are you Baggie Saiyan on Twitter, Mr Baggins ?

[Magnificent Ponta]

Chapter 39 where gohan fights kefla on equal footing?

No, not that - Mr Baggins is right to identify the referent as Roshi vs. Jiren. We evidently differ on the significance of that precedent, though.

Basically, the way I see it, you have two examples of a totally unremarkable individual (in strict power terms) performing vastly and 'impossibly' beyond a level that would be expected even of a power many times their own, thanks to their engaging in a particular state of mind. The state of mind for Roshi is clearing his mind and not thinking about anything at all. The state of mind for Bardock is thinking about victory, to the exclusion of anything else. It occurs abruptly and with only the barest foreshadowing within the same chapter for both, and astonishes those who behold it. Functionally, those both seem basically to be the same thing, even though the specifics differ somewhat.

It really doesn't matter how hard Jiren is or isn't 'trying', for instance, because (as many huffy power-scalers insisted at the time) there's no conventional way Roshi should be able to do even that well, because Jiren is simply immeasurably greater than him, and he 'should' win instantly either way - it just goes to show how massively effective the power of instinct is (even not done 'properly'). It's weird to me when people try to downplay the gulf Roshi makes up, because 'explanations' like that go against the grain of the whole scene - it only works if it's completely outrageous and doesn't admit of conventional explanation. Goku is totally astonished that Roshi (even briefly) puts on a more competitive showing against Jiren than SSjB, and he should be. It's wild. But it's also the point. (And it's great.)

Similarly, Bardock is up against a guy who's many times his power (almost certainly not as wide a gap as Roshi-Jiren, but plenty wide enough); he has no way of conventionally making that gulf up. But his state of mind allows him to perform on a level beyond any Saiyan's limit - as Gas insists, his inner nature represents a limit beyond what any Saiyan can do, which is why he's astonished and goes crazy over it at the end of the fight. There's admittedly a slight uncertainty as to the precise mechanism of how the instinct relates to the outcome, compared to Roshi's showing (in his case, it's instinct related to movement because his body is 'deciding' what to do for him - as later Chapters note, this also makes him "stronger" without actually changing his Battle Power), but the Chapter seems to indicate that Bardock's instinct towards victory seems to have some kind of synergy with his Saiyan nature - which, in itself, is a well-established (but not entirely well-defined, and frankly 'ultra-convenient') mechanism in Dragon Ball for moving past established limits to new levels of power. But otherwise, what plays for the first example should play for the second, in my opinion.

Maybe we'll get more to pin it down, and maybe we won't. Right now, it seems to be set up as something that can provide a synergistic, non-emotional focus for Goku's Ultra Instinct (and quite possibly his own Saiyan nature as well, uniting various threads in a single 'style'). That's how it seems to me at this point. Like I said earlier, it's funny to think of total nonsense like near-death power-ups and transformations getting a pass because those are simply 'the rules' hallowed by time, but something that both has apparent precedent in this series and actually has a little relevance to actual fighting is where the line gets drawn for people's suspension of disbelief.

[Mr Baggins]

Unrelated, but are you Baggie Saiyan on Twitter, Mr Baggins ?

No. I might have gone by a certain "Marlowe" once, though.

because (as many huffy power-scalers insisted at the time) there's no conventional way Roshi should be able to do even that well, because Jiren is simply immeasurably greater than him, and he 'should' win instantly either way

The huffy power-scalers continue to be gravely wrong about this scene. Jiren, upon seeing Roshi charge at him, was adhering to the "no killing" rule of the tournament and his own "no movements wasted" mantra -- meaning he wasn't immeasurably greater than him, but implicitly suppressed to accommodate Roshi's own strength. He was actually established to have been doing that ever since the match with Hit. Roshi then used fake UI to briefly overcome that drastically smaller gap, which confounded Jiren until he came to. He then immediately re-adjusted.

But as you've alluded to yourself in any case, it's the nature of these power-ups that are fundamentally different, and Bardock's is total hogwash to me. There are ways to expand on Saiyan growth without potentially undermining all that came before.

[Hugo Boss]

This tidbit about Saiyans evolving as they fight apparently comes from Toriyama himself.

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

I’d say it’s exactly what happened in this chapter. In the main series, we probably witnessed this happen with Goku vs. Nappa. Nappa was greatly outclassed in battle power, being only about half as strong as Goku (4,000 vs 8,000+), but because of his insane natural toughness he was able to brush off most of Goku's attacks and keep fighting back. Given how he gradually started putting up a better fight, it's possible his battle power was rising and he was like 8,000 or something by the time Vegeta called him off.

Dragon Ball Super tv anime also has plenty of references of this happening. You could describe it as a Saiyan-powered adrenaline rush. It also takes the old message that power gaps in numerical terms are largely meaningless, and emphasizes that they're a little extra meaningless for Saiyans, since under the right circumstances they can actually get stronger during a single fight. It wouldn't necessarily be permanent though, their power would likely revert back down to normal once they relax.

On a site note, I’m feeling Bardock and Vegeta also share a lot of similarities. Even Vegeta’s ultra ego is largely influenced by this Saiyan-ish particular trait, though he should definitely forget about atoning for the Saiyans’ sins, which is still holding him back.

[Miracles]

Still I don't know how this will connect with ramping Goku up in Ultra Instinct.

My assumption is that this will result in a more focused/determined Ultra Instinct, which I guess is fine. Dunno about any visual changes. Maybe his hair will go from gray to white, or something.

I am still thoroughly against the idea of an "emotional" UI. I have so many problems with that on so many levels.

Agreed. I do not think the story will upset it's foundations about UI being calm. Bardock's fight against Gas showed pure focus on victory no matter what. Such mental/spiritual concentration reconciles with the skill of UI. From a battle aspect, this is what Goku can gain from the audio.

A difference was shown in father and son's bouts against Gas. When both had no hope of victory. Goku ran and played defense against Gas instead of fighting to win. This is the reason Gas says Goku lacks the "fire/resolve" his father had.

[nato25]

Strong resolve is fine, but I think the main problem is the audience has been trained to expect a victory after a transformation (or major power up). Now this isn't always the case, but a transformation at least let's them fight evenly for a time.

Then you have a moment where Beerus takes ssj3 like it's nothing and it's so impactful where you know this guy means business.

Just off memory.

- goku vs nappa
- zarbon vs vegeta (and then zarbon flipping it back)
- piccolo vs frieza (and again, flipping it)
- ssj goku vs frieza
- ssj goku vs 19
- almost all cell and buu battles

And again from memory this trend largely continues into super.

Now in the span of a chapter you have a character that seems to be already dominating and then transforms not once, but twice. To a form we have also just seen dominant a couple chapters ago.

And the winner of the fight is bardock, who at least in my opinion, has been annoyingly turned from a common saiyan who tried to make a difference into a series golden child.

Combine it all together and I think that's the stem of the communities problem. There's portions of good writing with how gas resolve is weak and bardocks strong, but it's not overcoming the other issues for me.

[Zelvin]

Why would losing the tail make Bardock's power degrade?

To at last answer this after having been busy, because that's always been the case. When Goku as a kid initially had his tail cut off by Puar, not only did he not feel as strong, but since that was the first time in his life he'd ever been without a tail, his balance was off. When his tail later grows back during the 21st Budokai in the fight against Giran, Goku didn't have the strength to break Giran's Merry-go-Round Gum that was binding him until his tail popped back out. Indicating that his inherent strength was boosted as a result. Bringing with it the conclusion that losing their tail would cause Saiyans to become a bit weaker as a result.

It's even entirely possible that if Vegeta's tail had been able to be regrown by the healing pod, he may've been even stronger when he arrived on Namek. Without his tail, however, Vegeta was forced to make do and adjust to its loss. And while it is true that Saiyans like Nappa and Vegeta had trained against losing strength when their tail is grabbed, one of Goku's original weaknesses, including Raditz's, it was never suggested that they wouldn't become weaker upon losing their Saiyan tails. So it stands to reason that Bardock losing his tail would cause him to become a bit weaker.

Agreed. I do not think the story will upset it's foundations about UI being calm. Bardock's fight against Gas showed pure focus on victory no matter what. Such mental/spiritual concentration reconciles with the skill of UI. From a battle aspect, this is what Goku can gain from the audio.

A difference was shown in father and son's bouts against Gas. When both had no hope of victory. Goku ran and played defense against Gas instead of fighting to win. This is the reason Gas says Goku lacks the "fire/resolve" his father had.

But that's also utter nonsense. Goku was resolved to save Gohan no matter what against Raditz. Even going so far as to sacrifice his life to do it. Goku received no buff for that. Conversely, Nappa was determined to lay waste to the entire Z-fighter team, Goku included, and fought with everything he had, only to be laid out flat by Goku's Kaioken. Nappa got no Saiyan boost from that. Even Vegeta was determined to make them all suffer after receiving humiliation after humiliation while fighting them. Pushed to use Oozaru, blasted in the eye, having his tail cut off, then harassed fighting Gohan, getting blasted with the mini Spirit Bomb, then slashed by Yajirobe from behind, and finally put against the Oozaru Gohan. Vegeta was determined to win and take them all out at every point to prove his superiority. Yet no Saiyan Pride/Spirit boost was forthcoming.

This creates a fundamental problem with this idea of "Saiyan Evolution" being proposed at this point, but also with Bardock himself. Because if this was always true and was that common knowledge among Saiyans, then why didn't King Vegeta abuse this benefit relentlessly in an attempt to break free from the control of Freeza and King cold? All he'd have to do is get a group of Elite Saiyans together and battle them relentlessly. And in probably a few months he'd be on Freeza's base level, if not higher. Especially if they abuse the use of the healing pods. If they could evolve and unlock new levels of power like that so easily and so quickly, then King Vegeta would never have had to bank their entire future of his Son. He'd instead get strong enough himself by abusing their Saiyan physiology and mentality to do the job himself.

Without any other Saiyan even considering that or displaying that kind of ability, it inherently implies that Bardock, a "Lower-Class Warrior", is Special. That the way he fights and the way he thinks is the way of a True Saiyan and that's why he's the only one who 'evolves' like this at that point in history. Which then implies that if Bardock is special, then Goku was always special, and that everything attributed to Goku is just inherited from Bardock. We already had that line before about Goku's 'softness' coming from being his Father's Son. Thus if Bardock is a special Saiyan, then so is Goku and Goku gets his special'ness from Bardock. Which undermines everything Goku has achieved all throughout his life. Goku's not a "Low-Class Warrior" who, through training, resolve and determination, was able to overcome incredible odds. Naw. It's because he's Special.

It's why I hate the idea of this all being directly connected to Goku. And why I hate Vegeta's portrayal too and him being "ohh I understand why Granolah hates Saiyans and I feel bad about it", when he had no such feelings towards Broly and Paragus, who'd suffered because of the actions of his father, King Vegeta. Vegeta didn't care about things that he had "no involvement with". Well, Vegeta had no involvement with the Saiyans being ordered to attack Planet Cereal, but he's supposed to feel guilty about what happened to Granolah? At least with the Namekians you could say it's because he attacked them himself all those years ago, but the Cerealeans? Vegeta had no connection with them at all. And if he's going to be weepy about Granolah, then he's just going to be the same with every race and civilization the Saiyans have attacked/destroyed across the universe. Both before and after they came under the control of King Cold and Freeza.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The huffy power-scalers continue to be gravely wrong about this scene.

They are mistaken, but not (in my opinion) due to any reading that attempts to bring Jiren down to something like Roshi's normal level in that fight - for the simple reason that, if the specifics of that exchange were about Jiren coming down significantly below how he was already performing against other opponents, and he were messing around on a level vastly below what, say, Goku could ordinarily do, then the answer to why Roshi did so well would be really not at all surprising, the astonishment of onlookers would be hard to explain, and there'd be no real reason for Goku to dumbfoundedly ask "How were you able to move like that?". Roshi's performance level when using the technique has to be objectively impressive next to what we've already seen, and so has to vault (at least much of the way - he does, after all, still lose) over that absolutely massive conventional power difference.

And that's thanks solely to his state of mind finding concrete application in a fight; not a transformation or whatever. Roshi talks about using what you have in the most effective way rather than trying to become conventionally stronger, and the power his body is able to project as a result is vastly stronger than the limits his conventional power permits (which is why I think the huffy power-scalers are wrong - Roshi's working to different 'rules' when he does this). If Roshi can do so well by this means against someone so overwhelmingly more powerful than him, it doesn't seem to me like any kind of stretch that Bardock can use the same basic kind of means against someone rather less overwhelmingly powerful and end up winning his own fight. That's why I consider Chapter 39 to be the appropriate precedent for Chapter 83, despite the differences of detail. You could add Chapter 57, I suppose, which bolsters aspects of this for Roshi also.

But as you've alluded to yourself in any case, it's the nature of these power-ups that are fundamentally different

They are different, but only in specifics, not in fundamentals, so far as I can see. Like so (differences underlined):

1. Muten Roshi enters a special state of mind centred around not thinking about anything -> His Body responds automatically to this special state of mind -> He becomes stronger and performs radically beyond his established conventional limits.
2. Bardock enters a special state of mind centred around absolute focus on victory -> His Saiyan Body responds automatically to this special state of mind -> He becomes stronger and performs radically beyond his established conventional limits.

Is there a really fundamental difference in this formulation? Because these are the really important elements of what we've been given by Chapters 39 (and 57, if you like) and 83 respectively, to my mind. Bardock seems to indicate that his Saiyan nature is an important particular detail, and a more definitive pronouncement confirming the specifics of that linkage would be nice - and I'm naturally willing to concede that I could well end up clearly mistaken since the arc still has further to go and (probably) more to say - but at this current point in time I don't see how what's Sauce for the Roshi Goose isn't Sauce for the Bardock Gander.