Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[Peach]

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

Because Freeza is crazy powerful. He could probably finger flick Bardock's head off.

Gas is extremely powerful too. Even the younger version. It just doesn't make sense to me. "Absolute Victory" Instinct or whatever this is should have been enough to destroy Frieza too.

Is this a different continuity or something than Minus and the Broly movie? I also noticed that the tail which is present in those is gone here

[Hugo Boss]

Is this a different continuity or something than Minus and the Broly movie? I also noticed that the tail which is present in those is gone here

The Saiyans’ tail regrow after a while if their battle power hadn’t reached a certain level.

[kemuri07]

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

Because Freeza is crazy powerful. He could probably finger flick Bardock's head off.

Gas is extremely powerful too. Even the younger version. It just doesn't make sense to me. "Absolute Victory" Instinct or whatever this is should have been enough to destroy Frieza too.

Is this a different continuity or something than Minus and the Broly movie? I also noticed that the tail which is present in those is gone here

It's a problem that I'm having with as well. Just how strong is Gas supposed to be? I try to avoid power level scaling because I don't think its all that important, but I'm focusing more on an emotional front and its hard to gather how and why Bardock is able to defeat Gas. If it were something like outta Yu Yu Hakusho in which extreme duress causes Bardock to tap into some hidden reserve of power that is also killing him the more he uses it or he blacks out which explains why he can't tap that power again when up against Frieza. Granted that doesn't really deal with the issue because the fight is really fucking anti-climatic.

Something to consider: I went back and re-read the final pages of Dragon Ball minus, and it's really vague as to what actually happens to Bardock once he sends Goku to Earth. Presumably, Bardock has a month with the knowledge that something bad is gonna happen to Planet Vegeta, and this recent chapter seems to suggest that Bardock got a pretty substantial hint that Freeza is gonna be the cause of whatever is gonna go down. Granted ALL OF THIS assumes that the Minus as is is still canon, and that the DBZ Bardock movie is not (as some of you maintain). So I guess what I'm saying is: are we being set up for a reveal that Bardock is still alive?

[Koitsukai]

Gas was nowhere near as strong as Freeza, come on, he was just stronger than Bardock, who didn't even get to kill Gas, he only punched his lights out. How could he take on Freeza who in his suppressed form is at least 100x stronger?

Bardock, as a low class saiyan should be below 5k, weaker than Nappa, and Gas' FP could be somewhat above Nappa at best.
I don't know why people expect this type of "boost" -that Toriyama has mentioned in interviews and we've already seen in action- that couldn't even kill a child, to suddenly close gargantuan gaps like the one from a low level saiyan and the emperor who sits at 500k in his sleep.

Shouki, Yuuki and all that voodoo perfectly explain what happened, and it isn't the first time it happens either.

[Galan007]

If you guys *had* to speculate, what level would you put Chap. 83 Bardock/Gas at?

Nappa-level?
Saiyan saga Vegeta-level?
Dodoria-level?
Burter/Jeice-level?

Below that? Above that?

[TobyS]

If you guys *had* to speculate, what level would you put Chap. 83 Bardock/Gas at?

Nappa-level?
Saiyan saga Vegeta-level?
Dodoria-level?
Burter/Jeice-level?

Below that? Above that?

Between Raditz and Nappa. Works nicely. Big jump for Bardock to beat a stronger for but not betraying his reasonable limits in terms of what Saiyans are capable of.

It's not vegeta level he was shaking the entire planet and stuff.

[Cipher]

So I guess what I'm saying is: are we being set up for a reveal that Bardock is still alive?

We see Bardock die in Broly.

[Peach]

Gas was nowhere near as strong as Freeza, come on, he was just stronger than Bardock, who didn't even get to kill Gas, he only punched his lights out. How could he take on Freeza who in his suppressed form is at least 100x stronger?

Bardock, as a low class saiyan should be below 5k, weaker than Nappa, and Gas' FP could be somewhat above Nappa at best.
I don't know why people expect this type of "boost" -that Toriyama has mentioned in interviews and we've already seen in action- that couldn't even kill a child, to suddenly close gargantuan gaps like the one from a low level saiyan and the emperor who sits at 500k in his sleep.

Shouki, Yuuki and all that voodoo perfectly explain what happened, and it isn't the first time it happens either.

Golden Frieza, no.

But he seems pretty fucking powerful even before the wish. Elec did mention something about hiding your true hand...

[Koitsukai]

Gas was nowhere near as strong as Freeza, come on, he was just stronger than Bardock, who didn't even get to kill Gas, he only punched his lights out. How could he take on Freeza who in his suppressed form is at least 100x stronger?

Bardock, as a low class saiyan should be below 5k, weaker than Nappa, and Gas' FP could be somewhat above Nappa at best.
I don't know why people expect this type of "boost" -that Toriyama has mentioned in interviews and we've already seen in action- that couldn't even kill a child, to suddenly close gargantuan gaps like the one from a low level saiyan and the emperor who sits at 500k in his sleep.

Shouki, Yuuki and all that voodoo perfectly explain what happened, and it isn't the first time it happens either.

Golden Frieza, no.

But he seems pretty fucking powerful even before the wish. Elec did mention something about hiding your true hand...

In the flashback, Gas was not even close to first form Freeza, Golden Freeza is off limits even to pre-wish Gas from nowadays.

[Peach]

So I guess what I'm saying is: are we being set up for a reveal that Bardock is still alive?

Maybe?

Maybe they'll try to retell that lord chilled OVA...

[Grimlock]

It could be. All we see is Bardock's body vanishing. "Vanish" can mean/lead (to) a lot of different things: maybe his body disintegrated and he died; maybe he was transported back to the past, destined to become a legend; or maybe he was taken to the future, starting to wear a white mask eventually.

Point is, they can certainly pull the "look closely!" card whenever they feel like.

[Peach]

Gas was nowhere near as strong as Freeza, come on, he was just stronger than Bardock, who didn't even get to kill Gas, he only punched his lights out. How could he take on Freeza who in his suppressed form is at least 100x stronger?

Bardock, as a low class saiyan should be below 5k, weaker than Nappa, and Gas' FP could be somewhat above Nappa at best.
I don't know why people expect this type of "boost" -that Toriyama has mentioned in interviews and we've already seen in action- that couldn't even kill a child, to suddenly close gargantuan gaps like the one from a low level saiyan and the emperor who sits at 500k in his sleep.

Shouki, Yuuki and all that voodoo perfectly explain what happened, and it isn't the first time it happens either.

Okay, then why couldn't Bardock beat Dodoria then?

Can you at least see why this weird power up is a little confusing to some?

[mute_proxy]

Okay, then why couldn't Bardock beat Dodoria then?

Can you at least see why this weird power up is a little confusing to some?

Bardock didn't fight Dodoria in the current continuity.

[Koitsukai]

Gas was nowhere near as strong as Freeza, come on, he was just stronger than Bardock, who didn't even get to kill Gas, he only punched his lights out. How could he take on Freeza who in his suppressed form is at least 100x stronger?

Bardock, as a low class saiyan should be below 5k, weaker than Nappa, and Gas' FP could be somewhat above Nappa at best.
I don't know why people expect this type of "boost" -that Toriyama has mentioned in interviews and we've already seen in action- that couldn't even kill a child, to suddenly close gargantuan gaps like the one from a low level saiyan and the emperor who sits at 500k in his sleep.

Shouki, Yuuki and all that voodoo perfectly explain what happened, and it isn't the first time it happens either.

Okay, then why couldn't Bardock beat Dodoria then?

Can you at least see why this weird power up is a little confusing to some?

Do you mean in the TV Special? this isn't the same Bardock. Minus buried that Bardock, at least for the main continuity. And DBS Bardock is a 'continuation' of Minus'.

But even if this was TV Special Bardock, he would still be way weaker than Dodoria, and his determination would not have been enough to close the gap with him, while Gas was still on his vicinity so the proper mindset and courage were enough to get him the W. But still not enough to kill Gas.

I was confused, too, on the first read, but by now, I honestly can't see what's confusing about it. He is just performing slightly above his usual self, like Nappa did vs Goku after Vegeta told him to focus.

[Mr Baggins]

Nah. Gas told Bardock his blows felt like "pinpricks against katchin-tite" and also said that Saiyans in general are nothing to him. This was before he transformed (twice).

I'm done talking about this chapter on a critical level, but unless you think Gas was exaggerating/lying, the gap between them is distinctly implied to be huge.

[Necrosaber]

I think people losing track of things with all the flashback jumps. Gas was way weaker fighting Bardock than when you first see him in the beginning of the arc. If he was Frieza level, they would have taken over his forces a long time ago. You didn't even really see how strong he was prior to the wish Elec made, so that skews things even more.

Still not sure what Goku is supposed to learn from Bardock's battle though. I'm hoping it'll make sense in chapter 84.

[Xeogran]

You didn't even really see how strong he was prior to the wish Elec made, so that skews things even more.

That's what I'm kinda disappointed at. Elec hinted at current Gas being very strong even before the wish, but that's the one version we never got to see fight.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Just wanted to randomly toss in a neat-seeming possible tidbit.

In the technique name Migatte no Goku'i, "Migatte" (身勝手 - "selfishness", but also other stuff) happens to share a character with some Japanese words for victory - "Shōri" (勝利), as well as "Seishō" (制勝) and "Yūshō" (優勝). Taken alone, 勝 seems to be the character basically connoting the sense of "winning" common to these.

Now, I naturally have no idea whether Bardock actually uses one of these words for victory when he says that only an idiot would focus on anything other than victory in a life-or-death fight, or instead some other expression that lacks this character (e.g. "Bikutorī"), and it may be totally spurious or flawed or just plain irrelevant (which would serve me right for stuffing bits of words from a language I don't understand into internet translators/dictionaries), but it seemed neat to me that the "secret of selfishness" might maybe have a little secret, as it were, tucked away within its own key word, which now seems relevant for the arc in general and (prospectively) for development of the technique's focus - so I thought I'd stick my neck out and share.

Re: Bardock and Gas guess-o-rama - Even if one says that Gas starts at 10,000 BP, moves up to around 20,000 and then to 60,000 (he says his level is beyond the limits of what Saiyans can do, and this was a figure proposed by Ginyu when the same basic consideration was in view with Goku), and Bardock starts at something like 1500 BP and makes his way up to (a performance level on par with, if not just actually) something like 75,000 just while he has the aura going on, I don't see that there's necessarily any difficulty. I mean, really, so long as they're both well below Freeza, and you're not wedded to the idea that Bardock's power is there at any other time than when he's actually 'doing the thing', you can really take your pick.

[Koitsukai]

but unless you think Gas was exaggerating/lying, the gap between them is distinctly implied to be huge.

I absolutely think that is the case. Otherwise, Bardock wouldn't have lasted that long, or force Gas to unleash his instincts if there was no need for it, and he did so right off the bat. I mean, at the end of the day, Gas couldn't even break the scouter (not with his ki or with his fists).
The fight doesn't support Gas' words having much truth behind it, imo.

Still not sure what Goku is supposed to learn from Bardock's battle though. I'm hoping it'll make sense in chapter 84.

Usually, once Goku shows he is stronger and the fight becomes uninteresting to him, he doesn't want to fight anymore, it happened vs Nappa, vs the Ginyu Force, he let Freeza go once the guy got weaker. He kept SS3 from Majin Vegeta, he sparred with Fat Buu and took off. He also lost interest in Moro7-3. The fights continue because the villains never take Goku's handout.
It also ties to Goku letting his guard down, believing everybody thinks of fighting like he does, like a sport, and not like a battle to death.

Like Vegeta said, Goku doesn't fight to win. Bardock only fights to win. I think he'll learn how to approach fights for what they actually are(shouki), becoming a much more efficient fighter.

[capsulecorp]

I think people losing track of things with all the flashback jumps. Gas was way weaker fighting Bardock than when you first see him in the beginning of the arc. If he was Frieza level, they would have taken over his forces a long time ago. You didn't even really see how strong he was prior to the wish Elec made, so that skews things even more.

Still not sure what Goku is supposed to learn from Bardock's battle though. I'm hoping it'll make sense in chapter 84.

Yep, this is it. Gas was much weaker when he was so young. Yes, he talks a big game and boasted about how strong he was, but remember, he's a dumb kid from a family that loves stealing, hiding and dealing in intel. He's obviously lying.