The best translation for “Migatte no gokui”?

[Aim]

This has been on my mind again, because the name is not only extremely cool, but from the sounds of it far more accurate to the original version of the name.

I present: Transcendental Reflex

This translation actually comes from the French manga I believe, I don’t even think Herms has commented on it before. Looking at the original migatte name, it seems this might actually be the most accurate translation compared to Ultra Instinct, not to mention it sounds better and could definitely replace the god awful “autonomous ultra instinct”.

Are there any translators here and if so what are your thoughts? Is this possibly the best translation we have got and the most accurate?

[Cipher]

The Secret of Self-Centrism, Ultra Instinct

Keep the pun via gloss on first reference, keep the punch moving forward.

I like “Transcendental Reflex” as well, but there’s no denying the simple impact of the similar meaning-wise “Ultra Instinct.” My only misgiving with it has never been in how much it communicates what the technique is—which I think it does just fine—but in losing the double meaning of the Japanese phrase with “unconscious movement” and “selfishness.”

Also, ask me again tomorrow; I’ll feel differently.

[Aim]

The Secret of Self-Centrism, Ultra Instinct

Keep the pun via gloss on first reference, keep the punch moving forward.

I like “Transcendental Reflex” as well, but there’s no denying the simple impact of the similar meaning-wise “Ultra Instinct.” My only misgiving with it has never been in how much it communicates what the technique is—which I think it does just fine—but in losing the double meaning of the Japanese phrase with “unconscious movement” and “selfishness.”

Also, ask me again tomorrow; I’ll feel differently.

Right, I always thought Ultra Instinct was missing something, at least Transcendental Reflex you could argue combines the complex Japanese phrases into one with some like transcendental, godly secret, and with reflex it communicates that pretty well imo.

[Desassina]

Id for Ultra Instincts Omen, selfless and instinctive, whose actions are reflexive and not reflected.
Ego for Complete Ultra Instincts, selfish and aware, justifying its completeness as a selfish doctrine.
Super-ego for Full Ultra Instincts*, consciousness itself, when they become their own sanctioning entity.

*the upcoming "full transformation of ultra instincts" that makes Goku use it like Daishinkan. These concepts were taken from psychology.

[Aim]

Id for Ultra Instincts Omen, selfless and instinctive, whose actions are reflexive and not reflected.
Ego for Complete Ultra Instincts, selfish and aware, justifying its completeness as a selfish doctrine.
Super-ego for Full Ultra Instincts*, consciousness itself, when they become their own sanctioning entity.

*the upcoming "full transformation of ultra instincts" that makes Goku use it like Daishinkan. These concepts were taken from psychology.

I don’t understand

[Desassina]

It's just an exercise in finding words related to the concepts and not translations. I didn't give it too much thought.

[ayakuweb]

I'm a translator here.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking 身勝手の極意 means "secret of selfishness" (I think the DB Wiki lists as that).

The word 身勝手does mean "selfish, self-centered, egotistical" however, that's not the intended meaning. The characters are supposed to be read as 身 and 勝手 separately meaning "one's body" moving "on its own" (katte/gatte here is an adverb)

One of the Japanese bloggers I follow actually made a post about it

https://dragonball.littleair.xyz/dragon ... ttenogokui

They write

(身)が(勝手)に動くということ... (mi ga katte ni ugoku to iu koto...) <-- note it's read as katte here when written on its own

"When the body moves on it own..."

There's more about it if you want me to translate it.

Anyway, the latter character does mean "secrets (of an art)"

I think "ultra instinct" does a good job of capturing its intended meaning and it looks like it's caught on to the Western fans.

[Cipher]

I'm a translator here.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking 身勝手の極意 means "secret of selfishness" (I think the DB Wiki lists as that).

The word 身勝手does mean "selfish, self-centered, egotistical" however, that's not the intended meaning. The characters are supposed to be read as 身 and 勝手 separately meaning "one's body" moving "on its own" (katte/gatte here is an adverb)

One of the Japanese bloggers I follow actually made a post about it

https://dragonball.littleair.xyz/dragon ... ttenogokui

They write

(身)が(勝手)に動くということ... (mi ga katte ni ugoku to iu koto...) <-- note it's read as katte here when written on its own

"When the body moves on it own..."

The pun is undoubtedly this combination of meanings together though. Both the typical, compound meaning of 身勝手 (a term with plenty of thematic threadwork in Dragon Ball), and the literalization of the kanji it consists of to get the idea of the body moving on its own.

That's why my sole misgiving with Ultra Instinct is not capturing the play on words in any sense, although it's pretty cumbersome to try to find ways to do so.

(Coincidentally, as you note, "Secret of Selfishness" is also a half job for only getting one side of the gag.)

EDIT -- Even that blog post notes the convenient tie of the surface-level dictionary meaning to Goku's character:

『身勝手』とGoogleで検索すれば、『自分の都合・利益だけを考えて行動すること。わがまま』という結果が出ます。

……悟空のことじゃん……。

It'd be like if the word "ego" in English shared pronunciation with something that also meant "movement." Which ... it doesn't; hence the struggle of capturing the full wordplay there.

But Toriyama didn't just accidentally create a compound that happened to match a standard dictionary word that also fits Goku's character. If that was truly unintentional wordplay, it'd certainly be the first in DB, in addition to one of the most unnatural.

[JulieYBM]

I'm a translator here.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking 身勝手の極意 means "secret of selfishness" (I think the DB Wiki lists as that).

The word 身勝手does mean "selfish, self-centered, egotistical" however, that's not the intended meaning. The characters are supposed to be read as 身 and 勝手 separately meaning "one's body" moving "on its own" (katte/gatte here is an adverb)

One of the Japanese bloggers I follow actually made a post about it

https://dragonball.littleair.xyz/dragon ... ttenogokui

They write

(身)が(勝手)に動くということ... (mi ga katte ni ugoku to iu koto...) <-- note it's read as katte here when written on its own

"When the body moves on it own..."

The pun is undoubtedly this combination of meanings together though. Both the typical, compound meaning of 身勝手 (a term with plenty of thematic threadwork in Dragon Ball), and the literalization of the kanji it consists of to get the idea of the body moving on its own.

That's why my sole misgiving with Ultra Instinct is not capturing the play on words in any sense, although it's pretty cumbersome to try to find ways to do so.

(Coincidentally, as you note, "Secret of Selfishness" is also a half job for only getting one side of the gag.)

EDIT -- Even that blog post notes the convenient tie of the surface-level dictionary meaning to Goku's character:

『身勝手』とGoogleで検索すれば、『自分の都合・利益だけを考えて行動すること。わがまま』という結果が出ます。

……悟空のことじゃん……。

It'd be like if the word "ego" in English shared pronunciation with something that also meant "movement." Which ... it doesn't; hence the struggle of capturing the full wordplay there.

But Toriyama didn't just accidentally create a compound that happened to match a standard dictionary word that also fits Goku's character. If that was truly unintentional wordplay, it'd certainly be the first in DB, in addition to one of the most unnatural.

Maybe....'ego ebb'? As in, 'ebb and flow'?

[Cold Skin]

In a thread about the translation of that term, it doesn't hurt having the official translator explaining her choice herself, so I'll copy-paste what I posted in another thread: her own comment from her Twitter account (which is pinned).

"First things first, why not Ultra Instinct, which you can see pretty much everywhere? Because from my point of view, this adaptation is not precise enough. In Japanese, instinct is "honnô" (本能) and this is not a term you can see in the original text. So how to translate "migatte" then?
In this context, "migatte" goes with the meaning of automatic actions, something involuntary without any interference from one's conscience. But I didn't like how something "automatic" would sound, so I chose a close term with "reflex" (unconscious reaction preceding any thought process).
Gokui could be translated as "quintessence" or "esoteric practice": the highest degree of an art, knowledge or technic, which you can access after having been initiated. This is a very solemn, pompous, grandiose term. When you think of that, "ultra" is somewhat reductive compared to the word "gokui".
In Japanese, Migatte no Gokui is a mouthful: this is a technic that is the sole priviledge of Gods, and they are proud of it. That's why I tried to bring that spriritual aspect when choosing a term from esotericism. Transcendantal conscience is a state one can reach through meditation. In the Zen branch, it's the equivalent of the Satori (悟), the buddhist awakening - which is also the first of the two characters to spell Goku (悟空).
Finally, I kept it long (almost the same number of syllables in the original version than in the French version), one reason being that I love to work on the rhythm and also to keep the author's intention as he chose a term that is willingly complex and mysterious.
When you combine the terms "transcendental" and "reflex", you get the sense of awakening to a superior state of conscience in which the body acts automatically without interference from thoughts, which is exactly what this technic is about."

Before we had her translation in the manga (and explanation on Twitter), I already knew I didn't really agree with Ultra Instinct for being too generic: activating Lara Croft's capacity to highlight useful objects could have been called the "Ultra Instinct" (it's called Survival Instinct), activating the Assassins' powers to perceive things in Assassin's Creed could be called "Ultra Instinct", etc... There's no notion of automatic movement there, it could apply to a lot of simple perception abilities, especially since instinct is not something that makes you move unconsciously and instantly, instinct is something you perceive and willingly choose to listen to or ignore... Not too automatic and instant in the end.

I guess this is why they rectified it in the English dub by expanding the name to "Autonomous Ultra Instinct", to try and fit the missing idea of the body doing its own thing independently of the mind.

That being said, it doesn't really bother me to use it in international conversations, it is the widely accepted term after all, and the fact that it is not really precise doesn't take away from the incredibly stylish form it refers to.

[ayakuweb]

I'm a translator here.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking 身勝手の極意 means "secret of selfishness" (I think the DB Wiki lists as that).

The word 身勝手does mean "selfish, self-centered, egotistical" however, that's not the intended meaning. The characters are supposed to be read as 身 and 勝手 separately meaning "one's body" moving "on its own" (katte/gatte here is an adverb)

One of the Japanese bloggers I follow actually made a post about it

https://dragonball.littleair.xyz/dragon ... ttenogokui

They write

(身)が(勝手)に動くということ... (mi ga katte ni ugoku to iu koto...) <-- note it's read as katte here when written on its own

"When the body moves on it own..."

The pun is undoubtedly this combination of meanings together though. Both the typical, compound meaning of 身勝手 (a term with plenty of thematic threadwork in Dragon Ball), and the literalization of the kanji it consists of to get the idea of the body moving on its own.

That's why my sole misgiving with Ultra Instinct is not capturing the play on words in any sense, although it's pretty cumbersome to try to find ways to do so.

(Coincidentally, as you note, "Secret of Selfishness" is also a half job for only getting one side of the gag.)

EDIT -- Even that blog post notes the convenient tie of the surface-level dictionary meaning to Goku's character:

『身勝手』とGoogleで検索すれば、『自分の都合・利益だけを考えて行動すること。わがまま』という結果が出ます。

……悟空のことじゃん……。

It'd be like if the word "ego" in English shared pronunciation with something that also meant "movement." Which ... it doesn't; hence the struggle of capturing the full wordplay there.

But Toriyama didn't just accidentally create a compound that happened to match a standard dictionary word that also fits Goku's character. If that was truly unintentional wordplay, it'd certainly be the first in DB, in addition to one of the most unnatural.

Actually, while the author does write 『身勝手』とGoogleで検索すれば、『自分の都合・利益だけを考えて行動すること。わがまま』という結果が出ます。

……悟空のことじゃん……。

They then immediately follow it with: じゃなくて which is like saying "wrong!" or "just kidding" or "that's not it"

Kind of like saying... "Hercule is the strongest... wrong!"

[Aim]

I'm a translator here.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking 身勝手の極意 means "secret of selfishness" (I think the DB Wiki lists as that).

The word 身勝手does mean "selfish, self-centered, egotistical" however, that's not the intended meaning. The characters are supposed to be read as 身 and 勝手 separately meaning "one's body" moving "on its own" (katte/gatte here is an adverb)

One of the Japanese bloggers I follow actually made a post about it

https://dragonball.littleair.xyz/dragon ... ttenogokui

They write

(身)が(勝手)に動くということ... (mi ga katte ni ugoku to iu koto...) <-- note it's read as katte here when written on its own

"When the body moves on it own..."

There's more about it if you want me to translate it.

Anyway, the latter character does mean "secrets (of an art)"

I think "ultra instinct" does a good job of capturing its intended meaning and it looks like it's caught on to the Western fans.

Thank you for that, that was interesting. In your opinion, what should Migatte no gokui be? Ignoring the fact it’s caught on to western fans, what would you ideally choose?

[Cipher]

They then immediately follow it with: じゃなくて which is like saying "wrong!" or "just kidding" or "that's not it"

Kind of like saying... "Hercule is the strongest... wrong!"

I’m aware, but there’s no way the play on words is unintentional, to the point where no native speaker would miss the double-entendre.

It’s not a case or “it’s only this.” It’s wordplay.

Of the two readings, the one to port over if you can only take one is definitely the idea of unconscious movement, since that’s the in-universe idea behind the name (which makes “Secret of Selfishness” on its own probably the worst or the regularly suggested alternatives), but you’re still losing the wordplay the Japanese manages.

That’s why when I was thinking about it earlier, I leaned toward something like “self-centered movement” as a descriptive gloss before the first naming—a centering of self focus-wise/spiritually, that also plays on “self-centered” as in “selfish.” After that though, I agree that the vein of Ultra Instinct/Transcendental Reflex is better as the name-name, since I don’t see anyway to keep the wordplay in English outside of a longer description.

Maybe “unthinking movement” as a descriptive gloss hits it just fine too though, without bending over backward to hit the pun. “Unthinking” is also a pretty apt description of Goku’s approach to life, inclusive of some of his negative traits, while literally applying to the technique as well.

“The mastery of unthinking action (the mastery of **un**thinking?)—Ultra Instinct”?

EDIT — I wish there were a “th” synonym for pinnacle/mastery so you could get some nice alliteration out of “the ____ of thoughtlessness, Ultra Insrinct!” too.

EDIT EDIT—

“The sublimity of subconscious, thousandfold/thundering/better “th” adjective thoughtlessness, autonomous* Ultra Instinct” ?

*For rhythm, and honestly, I know some people get picky about it, but it’s totally fine as a lengthened descriptor.

Picturing something like this over Whis’ 正真正銘 ... 身勝手の極意 panels as Goku lands his first hit on Jiren. Not sure how Viz handled that (I’m sure it’s fine; we’re just brainstorming here well after the fact).

[Desassina]

Whenever in doubt, adapt names to a language in a manner that makes them as practical as they sound cool, by keeping the theme intact and not through the words' construction. Pocus was a great alternative to Pui Pui, because what the hell is the latter, when in the context of Bibbidi, Bobbidi, Boo and Dabra, the former gets the idea through just fine, in a way that an English speaking audience can understand? Must I summon Pokémon and how lame some of their names would have been had they not been adapted and they kept their original words? Nobody has given them a second thought.

Ultra Instincts gets the Omen state right through its name, but once Goku is accomplished in a new way of movement, suddenly the idea that he's acting on instinct (or being reflexive) is lost, because he's now aware of his own body, at a surface level at least (since he still has his vitals to take care of). I think that a good name adaptation would have to portray this process by which he reverts to his own id, so that he can work on his self in a new state, and become awareness without thinking. The word play would result in something along the lines of Reflexive Self Awareness. It sounds more like a state than the name of a technique too.

[Magnificent Ponta]

EDIT — I wish there were a “th” synonym for pinnacle/mastery so you could get some nice alliteration out of “the ____ of thoughtlessness, Ultra Insrinct!” too.

While it's not alliterative, you could use 'zenith' for retaining the 'th' phoneme and layering the pun with 'zen' allusions, whether those of Zen Buddhism and concepts of awakening, or even the English colloquial associations with general tranquility, either of which would jive well with Ultra Instinct.

Just a thought.

[pepd]

It seems a translation requires a lot of compromises, so for me is one more term to leave untranslated.
For where a translation is necessary, I think the priority should be to describe the technique as best as possible, and leave the wordplay as notes. "Absolute" could be a term to consider.

[JulieYBM]

I actually think that it's lame that they change Pokemon names. I for one think that 'Showers', 'Booster' and 'Thunders' are cool names.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Is Blacky a cool name too? Because that's Umbreon's name. Blacky.

[jjgp1112]

For something that whittles the meaning down to a catchy name, how about "Flow of Zen," "Zen Flow," or "Zen Step?"

[Hugo Boss]

For something that whittles the meaning down to a catchy name, how about "Flow of Zen," "Zen Flow," or "Zen Step?"

Or maybe Secret Art of Zen Movement?