You're leaving out the obvious fact that they were comparing Trunks to Cell's power level at the time, not his absolute full power. Cell made two significant powerups afterwards, each of which revealing a new level of power that no one was previously aware of. You can be forgiven for overlooking it, seeing as how since the dawn of transformations people have all but forgotten that powerlevels can be modified without transforming as well. One such example is Freeza's power-up while in his second form that took him from "over a million" to somewhat more than that, which could be anywhere from 1,2-1,4 million. It's almost universally overlooked in most power level listings.Grimlock wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:53 pm If I were to guess, I think Super Saiyan Grade 2 multiplier is x75, making it a perfect "Super Saiyan 1.5". I also assume Super Saiyan Grade 3 to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 2, by having a multiplier above x100. I think that's a nice trade-off since, as we know, its speed/muscle mass is a major hindrance. Cell says Trunks is stronger than him (and Piccolo also says Trunks is stronger than Cell, for what is worth).
It's very low-key in the manga, but happens mostly on this page:
and is commented on on this one:
The anime instead presents a full powering-up sequence with floating rocks and whatnot. In any case - after this, Freeza gains a clear advantage over Piccolo, at least until the latter removes his weighted clothing.
The same thing, but much clearer and less subtle, happens with Cell after the initial phase of his fight against Goku. Since nothing hints otherwise and no one makes any statements to the contrary, we can assume Perfect Cell was using the same "standby" powerlevel that he used earlier against both Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks.
We also know from Goku's demonstration at Karin's that his own standby power must be considerably less than half of his full power, as half is what he worked up to in his prolonged demonstration to Karin before he had to stop:
He then appears to return to his standby powerlevel, since he uses "was" relating to his previously elevated level of power.
And then when the Cell Games begin, Goku starts out at this very same standby level, and is evenly matched with Cell:
What does that show us? That Goku at less than half, probably closer to a third (or fourth, if you're generous) of his full power already does a better job against the same version of Perfect Cell that Vegeta and Trunks had fought than both Grade 2 Vegeta (who was plain weaker) and Grade 3 Trunks (who was stronger but slower). That means a 1/3x or less power Super Saiyan Goku after a single visit to the RoSaT that lasted less than a full year would already beat Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks low-diff.
Most people like to assume that Goku's superior full strength is solely attributable to Goku's greater talent and the fact that he had a sparring partner, since training with a partner is more efficient than solo. And these two factors definitely do contribute, and hugely - but they're already sufficiently illustrated by the fact that after 10,5 months of training Goku's already better in a basic form than Trunks and Vegeta were in elevated forms after 12 months of training. That means Goku's superior training methods and talent have overcome even whatever extra multipliers Grade 2 and Grade 3 provided Vegeta and Trunks, and that's only at a fraction of his full power - and it's even further cemented by the fact that Goku and Vegeta were very close to each other in power before beginning the RoSaT training, with Vegeta even arguably being slightly superior. Many others theorize that once Grade 4 is reached, either the speed of power gains from training accelerates, or the base power gets dragged up to keep the multiplier at 50, but these honestly just sound like a cope to avoid even considering that Grade 4 might allow a higher multiplier).
It's therefore not unreasonable to think that this standby level of Goku's power is what he would have had as an unmastered Super Saiyan. It's his "base Super Saiyan" level. Of course this one is just my own assumption, but I feel it makes a lot of sense. So:
Ssj Goku = Perfect Cell -> Grade 3 Trunks (in speed only, somewhat inferior in power) > Grade 2 Vegeta. Which, if you assume Grade 3's multiplier to be 2x over regular Super Saiyan, means that Goku's training was around twice as efficient as Vegeta and Trunks' - and that only widens if you think the multiplier is higher. I used to give Grade 2 a 2x boost and Grade 3 a further 2x boost (4x Super Saiyan).
But then the power-up comes in.
Both Goku and Cell power-up, with Goku powering up to his max, and Cell to a matching, but slightly superior level that makes the fight relatively comfortable, yet still challenging for him - a level that at the time is once again considered to be Cell's full power, as per Karin's earlier estimate that "Cell's probably a bit stronger than Goku", which turns out to be quite accurate.
Vegeta at this point once again feels utterly defeated and humiliated, since he assesses Goku's power to still be superior to his own, even after his 2nd visit to the RoSaT. But you need to notice that while Vegeta trained alone even the second time (again diminishing his effectiveness), he did acknowledge the superiority of Goku's direction with the Super Saiyan form and attempted to replicate it. This is proven by Vegeta and Trunks not transforming to 2nd Grade during the Cell Games in the manga - just like Goku - even though there were no apparent reasons against doing so:
There are several such shots in the manga of Trunks and Vegeta who are shown with the same kind of aura that Goku has after powering up to the maximum, along with comparatively lean muscles that don't imply Grade 2.
Still, Vegeta and Trunks were able to go toe to toe with the Cell Juniors, meaning they must at least have come somewhat close to Goku's full power this time - perhaps around 70-80%.
So if we assume that Goku's full power was 3x that of his standby power, that would make him at least 4,5x stronger than Grade 2 Vegeta was in the latter's fight against Cell (assuming Cell/standby Goku were 1,5x stronger than Super Vegeta, completely sufficient to hand him the defeat he was handed). If you want Grade 2's multiplier to be 1,5x that of regular SSj, that would mean full power SSj Goku was 6,75x stronger than SSj Vegeta after one visit to the RoSaT for both (for a 2x multiplier for Grade 2, that would be 9x) - but having Goku at standby be 2,25x Super Saiyan Vegeta (3x if Grade 2 is 2x SSj). A difference of 2,25x-3x could be explained by more efficient training and innate talent, but one of 6,75x-9x couldn't - it's simply too much, the transformation itself has to account for part of the difference.
Vegeta after his 2nd visit in the RoSaT came from being at around 22% of Goku's full power at Grade 2 to 70 or 80% at "regular" Super Saiyan - that's not an inconsiderable jump either - even though his training methods remained inefficient due to him training alone and not having proper rests.
That all leads me to conclude that Grade 4 must allow powering up to at the very least the Grade 2 multiplier without strain or changes to the body. Not to mention that no one ever used Grade 2 at or after the Cell Games, even though there were no practical reasons not to do so. In fact, it could have provided the much-needed momentary boost for both Vegeta and Trunks to instantly overcome the Cell Juniors - even if it's just a 1,5x multiplier, the Juniors would have been killed in a few moments. Yet I continue to hear excuses such as that Grade 2 was simply shunned because of how much stamina it drains. Once again - stamina is of absolutely no consequence if you can finish your opponent off in two seconds. Goku could have transformed to Grade 2 as well and flat-out kill Cell without having to place his bets on Gohan (at least assuming Cell was displaying his true power, which Goku didn't yet know he wasn't) - yet he didn't, while also mentioning that he was going all out against Cell. That, once again heavily hints that Grade 4 must incorporate the multiplier of Grade 2 at the very least.
It's definitely not "based on nothing", and plenty things in fact do hint to that, as I have just enumerated. These things are just a bit more subtle than the usual direct verbatim statements that tend to be required to satisfy people. Here's a TL;DR list:As for Super Saiyan Full Power/Super Saiyan Grade 4, there's nothing "underselling" it, it's just another case of people misinterpreting stuff. Its purpose was to get rid of all drawbacks, to make Super Saiyan easier to maintain for longer periods and whatnot. All of this is reiterated throughout the following chapters by characters making comments after Goku and Gohan left the chamber. It was never supposed to provide a bigger increase in power (i.e. to have a bigger multiplier) over the regular Super Saiyan, this is a misconception based on nothing.
As nothing even hints to that.
- Grade 4 allows you to power up while in Super Saiyan - previously there was only a single level of power afforded by the form, with no hints of being able to take it higher. The first ways shown of doing that were in fact Grade 2 and Grade 3. You could argue that it's only suppression, and not powering up beyond previous limits - but the fact remains that Goku in a relaxed state was already 2-3x stronger than SSj Vegeta after a year of RoSaT - just the amount that could be explained by his more efficient training. He could still take his power 3x higher, which suggests that the power-up possible while at Grade 4 is indeed incremental/limit breaking.
- Grade 4's aura while powering up to the maximum is drawn in the manga in a very similar fashion to Grade 2's standby aura. It then settles to a calmer SSj-like aura. It is a hint that power beyond that of the regular Super Saiyan is being accessed.
- Goku's extreme difference in power compared to Vegeta after both had a single visit to the RoSaT cannot be explained only by Goku being smarter at training and having a sparring partner in Gohan. That definitely covers part of the difference, but not all of it - it's just too huge. The transformation itself has to play a role as well. Goku would already have beaten Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks post 1st RoSaT at only his standby powerlevel which was considerably less than half his full power.
- No one used Grade 2 again, even though it should be possible if Grade 4 was just regular Super Saiyan, and would have provided immediate and tangible benefits in all the scenarios (Goku destroying Cell; Trunks and Vegeta destroying Cell Juniors). Explanations given as to why Grade 2 was not used are usually weak and unconvincing as its potential advantages far outweigh any stamina or efficiency concerns. The only sensible explanation is that there are no advantages at all, because Grade 4 already offers that power, only with no drawbacks.
So all in all, I feel there is quite a lot that hints that Grade 4 is in fact the full mastery of the 1st Super Saiyan level, and that includes Grade 2 and Grade 3. So no, Grade 3 is not stronger than SSj2, in fact it's not even close - given that SSj2's multiplier (whatever we agree it is) builds off Grade 4's powerlevel - and that's already at the very least beyond Grade 2 and possibly on par with Grade 3. In simplest terms, since Goku's standby powerlevel was probably around 1/3 of his full power, it could be a 3x multiplier over an untrained Super Saiyan - meaning that to align, you could put Grade 2 at 1,5x and Grade 3 at 3x (twice that of Grade 2). Now of course you don't have to agree with it, but you can at least acknowledge that there is quite a bit of stuff in the manga that would lead one to believe so - definitely not nothing.
SSj2 Gohan (definitely more than 32000) > Perfect Cell, full power (anywhere from 12000 to 24000) > Perfect Cell, "true speed" (8000) > Grade 4 Gohan at 100% (7500) > Perfect Cell, powered up (7000) > Grade 4 Goku at 100% (6750) > Grade 4 Vegeta/Trunks at 100% = Cell Juniors (5400) > Grade 4 Goku at 50% (3375) > Grade 3 Trunks (2700, speed of 1800) > SSj Goku = Perfect Cell at standby (2250) > Grade 2 Vegeta (1500) => Grade 2 Trunks (1425) > Semi-Perfect Cell (1100-1300) > SSj Vegeta (1000) => SSj Trunks (950)