Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help
- PrinceVegetto
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:39 pm
- Location: Papaya Island
Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
Genuinely curious as to why the franchise seems to be doing everything possible to remain in the 10 year time period between the end of the Buu arc & EoZ...is it because they don't want to take any chance of merging the timeline of Super & GT?
Granted, there's a 5 year time skip between EoZ and the start of GT but could it also be that EoZ is the definitive epilogue Toriyama wants people to adhere to and Super needs to be forever stuck in this time period?
Where do you predict the franchise goes after the Super Hero retelling is done in the manga?
Will Super end after the new characters are tied into the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai with Uub?
I think the franchise is in its biggest crossroad in a long time...
I personally would love Super to explore Goku getting out of his student role and becoming a mentor to Uub!
Granted, there's a 5 year time skip between EoZ and the start of GT but could it also be that EoZ is the definitive epilogue Toriyama wants people to adhere to and Super needs to be forever stuck in this time period?
Where do you predict the franchise goes after the Super Hero retelling is done in the manga?
Will Super end after the new characters are tied into the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai with Uub?
I think the franchise is in its biggest crossroad in a long time...
I personally would love Super to explore Goku getting out of his student role and becoming a mentor to Uub!
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
Toriyama has already said that he doesn't like stories with characters who have aged, and that's why "Super" takes place in the 10-year gap after Z, because the characters are too old at the end of Z. But now there won't be much room to squeeze in more story, as Super Hero takes place almost immediately before the tournament, so there are only two options for the future: end it or continue after the tournament. I hope for the latter.
HOST AND FOUNDER OF THE GERMAN DRAGON BALL PODCAST "KAMEHAMEHA".
ADVISOR FOR THE GERMAN DUB OF DRAGON BALL SUPER.
FAN FOR OVER 20 YEARS.
https://kame-hame-ha.de/
ADVISOR FOR THE GERMAN DUB OF DRAGON BALL SUPER.
FAN FOR OVER 20 YEARS.
https://kame-hame-ha.de/
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I've said this before, but I don't think they ever go past EoZ. Mostly because Super technically isn't a "sequel" in the traditional sense: the story still ends with Goku flying away Uub. so it gives them wiggle room to do whatever they want and still preserve Z's "ending." That and GT is clearly still popular enough that it keeps coming up in a variety of related media despite how controversial that series is.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
In any case, DBS and GT's timeline are incompatible no matter what happens with DBS or the epilogue. Toriyama's epilogue is the one that matters, I don't know why he'd care about GT or want people to adhere to something he had no involvement on instead of his own. It was already said GT is like an alternate story, so GT is not to blame here.
I guess he has Goku's end set on stone like initially planned, so he's detailing how he got there, adding more stuff instead of being Buu his last main event.
I guess he has Goku's end set on stone like initially planned, so he's detailing how he got there, adding more stuff instead of being Buu his last main event.
- VegettoEX
- Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
- Posts: 17631
- Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I don't think there's an actual, formalized, set "rule" about it within the comprehensive style guide and editorial direction for the series from the rights-holders and Toriyama himself, but I do think that it absolutely plays a role in everyone's story crafting. It's pretty transparent from an outsider's perspective, that's for sure. It may only be an "out of respect" sort of thing, and perhaps even entirely unspoken, but it's definitely there.
Time travel in the series-proper actually gave them the perfect "out" for this, because they can have all sorts of ancillary events "out of time" that have no impact back on the original serialization story: see things like Xenoverse and all of the Heroes stories. No shock to see them double-down on this over time and use it as an outlet for those kinds of stories.
That said, there HAS BEEN something officially published that takes place AFTER everything... and that's (spoilers, perhaps?) Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission, which turns out to be an actual sequel to Dragon Ball GT. Sure, it's not a "real" story the same way Dragon Ball Super wound up being, but it was something!
Time travel in the series-proper actually gave them the perfect "out" for this, because they can have all sorts of ancillary events "out of time" that have no impact back on the original serialization story: see things like Xenoverse and all of the Heroes stories. No shock to see them double-down on this over time and use it as an outlet for those kinds of stories.
That said, there HAS BEEN something officially published that takes place AFTER everything... and that's (spoilers, perhaps?) Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission, which turns out to be an actual sequel to Dragon Ball GT. Sure, it's not a "real" story the same way Dragon Ball Super wound up being, but it was something!
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
- GreatSaiyaman123
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1766
- Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
- Location: Somewhere beyond the sea
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I don't think GT is in Toriyama's mind at all. Doubt he even remembers it exists. I do believe EoZ might still be his official epilogue though: As VegettoEX said, it may not be a formalized thing, but Toyotaro is going to cram stories in this small timespan until Toriyama gives him the go. EoZ is a very definitive ending since it's a passing of the mantle, and Toriyama can't see anyone but Goku in the main role. He probably still feels the cast will be too old as well, that was the reason Battle of Gods was earlier in the timeline too.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I remember Toriyama saying that he gave Vegeta a mustache when he talked about characters being too old after EoZ. He might've gotten mixed up with how he drew Vegeta in the end or maybe the GT cast was how he envisioned them looking a few years after EoZ (aside from Goku being turned into a kid). I'm not sure how much he contributed to DBO but its timeline doesn't have anything happening for Goku and Vegeta between EoZ and their final battle and the next major antagonist is a few hundred years later. A few Z fighters open martial arts school but only threat they face are weak remnants of Freeza's army. It's all consistent with DBS in a way since the last of their adventures happen before EoZ.
- UpFromTheSkies
- I Live Here
- Posts: 2218
- Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
It seems to me like they're gearing up to move the story beyond EoZ, and it doesn't have to interfere with GT, they could easily come up with an in universe explanation for GT. For example, they could write a scene where Whis tells Goku that there are many different paths his development could have taken, and then clips of SS4 Goku appear in his staff. Goku asks what he is seeing, and Whis tells him that in an alternate timeline he achieved SS4 instead of SSG. Goku wants to meet his alternate self and spar with him, but Whis says that it's forbidden.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I’m still banking on them undoing all of Super completely. It just makes the most sense story wise really.
Like the excitement for Uub doesn’t make a whole lot of sense after the gangs progression and they’re long past the point where power progression is even in-universe believable anymore.
Also the color swaps make me vomit, not only the lack of originality but just the plan ugly color choice and designs. It’s almost parody or at least something I would have drawn up and thought was cool in middle school.
Like the excitement for Uub doesn’t make a whole lot of sense after the gangs progression and they’re long past the point where power progression is even in-universe believable anymore.
Also the color swaps make me vomit, not only the lack of originality but just the plan ugly color choice and designs. It’s almost parody or at least something I would have drawn up and thought was cool in middle school.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
It does make sense now. Since you don't know Uub's strength was retconned in the DBS manga during the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga about 2 years ago. He now has half of Dai Kaioshin's God ki power and even half of his God ki power was above standard SSB level from what this arc established.TheMikado wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:27 pm I’m still banking on them undoing all of Super completely. It just makes the most sense story wise really.
Like the excitement for Uub doesn’t make a whole lot of sense after the gangs progression and they’re long past the point where power progression is even in-universe believable anymore.
Also the color swaps make me vomit, not only the lack of originality but just the plan ugly color choice and designs. It’s almost parody or at least something I would have drawn up and thought was cool in middle school.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I get the feeling it's slowing down. Toriyama's is getting older so that could be why there was a longer break between each film and the manga adapting Super Hero. So far it's almost identical so I assume the only reason is to give Toriyama more time to decide on the next arc.UpFromTheSkies wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:11 pm It seems to me like they're gearing up to move the story beyond EoZ, and it doesn't have to interfere with GT, they could easily come up with an in universe explanation for GT.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I thought it was widely known that GT is non canon/side story/different timeline?
Also with Super creating a bunch of inconsistencies I was also under the assumption that the EoZ was going to be retconned. DB as a whole is super inconsistent (no pun intended) So I assumed there was always different continuities.
For example
1.Original canon DB/DBZ
2.DB/DBZ/GT
3.DB/DBZ/Super with the assumption that EOZ will be retconned since Super creates inconsistencies.
4....the other timelines from the games that I'm no familiar with.
I don't think Toriyama puts much thought into it so for me I have to contextualize it this way for it to somewhat make sense. They can easily move past Z and "retcon" or say GT is a different continuity to support the direction they are going. It sucks and I don't like the direction Super took the franchise but considering what they set up it would be unwise to be locked down to GT since it wouldn't make sense.
Also with Super creating a bunch of inconsistencies I was also under the assumption that the EoZ was going to be retconned. DB as a whole is super inconsistent (no pun intended) So I assumed there was always different continuities.
For example
1.Original canon DB/DBZ
2.DB/DBZ/GT
3.DB/DBZ/Super with the assumption that EOZ will be retconned since Super creates inconsistencies.
4....the other timelines from the games that I'm no familiar with.
I don't think Toriyama puts much thought into it so for me I have to contextualize it this way for it to somewhat make sense. They can easily move past Z and "retcon" or say GT is a different continuity to support the direction they are going. It sucks and I don't like the direction Super took the franchise but considering what they set up it would be unwise to be locked down to GT since it wouldn't make sense.
- Trouser
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:02 am
- Location: Capsule Corp.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
It's "forbidden" because Toriyama thinks the EoZ characters are too old. That's why events of Super happened during "10 year gap". I find his thinking stupid, but he's the author, so... whatever.
"If it means having to live under your control, I'd rather be dead!" - Trunks
English is not my first language, if I've made a mistake, please, feel free to correct me. It will help, thanks.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
His thinking is stupid and just one more example of how weirdly restrictive his approach to storytelling is. It does him no harm just...letting the characters age or hell, even just de-aging the characters with medicine or the Dragon Balls if he really wants them to appear younger.
SHE/HER
THE CUTEST GIRL YOU KNOW
THE CUTEST GIRL YOU KNOW
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
Or do good old "passing the torch" to newer generation, i wouldn't mind seeing more slice of life Trunks/Goten/Mai or Piccolo/Pan stuff Goku and Vegeta can still appear, just don't make Super Goku a dumbass, it's not funny, it never was funny, it's never gonna be funny!JulieYBM wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:10 amHis thinking is stupid and just one more example of how weirdly restrictive his approach to storytelling is. It does him no harm just...letting the characters age or hell, even just de-aging the characters with medicine or the Dragon Balls if he really wants them to appear younger.
My Twitter: @kamil198811
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
Completely agree with all of you here. I think the fear with passing on the torch or aging the characters is holding the series back and funny enough makes the Dragonball world seem small. The easy route is the one they took to get a quick audience but even so it still divided people and not given DB a redemption for its cliches people criticize it for. However to be fair to Toriyama, he's old and has done his part so I don't blame him for not putting much thought or energy into the franchise anymore. Toei on the other hand........coola wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:15 pmOr do good old "passing the torch" to newer generation, i wouldn't mind seeing more slice of life Trunks/Goten/Mai or Piccolo/Pan stuff Goku and Vegeta can still appear, just don't make Super Goku a dumbass, it's not funny, it never was funny, it's never gonna be funny!JulieYBM wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:10 amHis thinking is stupid and just one more example of how weirdly restrictive his approach to storytelling is. It does him no harm just...letting the characters age or hell, even just de-aging the characters with medicine or the Dragon Balls if he really wants them to appear younger.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
It would make much more sense to put Super into its own alternative timeline.Shinsa wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:28 pm I thought it was widely known that GT is non canon/side story/different timeline?
Also with Super creating a bunch of inconsistencies I was also under the assumption that the EoZ was going to be retconned. DB as a whole is super inconsistent (no pun intended) So I assumed there was always different continuities.
For example
1.Original canon DB/DBZ
2.DB/DBZ/GT
3.DB/DBZ/Super with the assumption that EOZ will be retconned since Super creates inconsistencies.
4....the other timelines from the games that I'm no familiar with.
I don't think Toriyama puts much thought into it so for me I have to contextualize it this way for it to somewhat make sense. They can easily move past Z and "retcon" or say GT is a different continuity to support the direction they are going. It sucks and I don't like the direction Super took the franchise but considering what they set up it would be unwise to be locked down to GT since it wouldn't make sense.
Literally ever single character got rehashed to the post just parts of EoZ make little sense.
Super is the odd ball out, not the other content.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
Super Hero is only a few years (?) out from EoZ. I dont think it would be difficult to move past it, but I would hope it would continue on from after EoZ immediately instead of a time skip.
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
I am honestly not sure if they will get past EoZ but I am sure they want to avoid it or hold it back as long as possible. It seems to me Toei is just frightened to touch original work, rewrite it, or go past where it would rewrite GT. The producers seem very terrified of the feedback it would give. That's my assumption frankly but I think there is truth to it, as if they wanted to, they would go past a long time ago and produce even better stories thanks to that.
That seems to be a problem with Super for me in general. They are milking status quo for as long as they can because things which fans are accustomed to, which is working at least properly, which is safe, isn't dangerous.
To be more creative would require some risk, changes, fresh air. And as a multi bilion dolar company Toei can't risk to alienate anyone.
I mean only now in manga and the movie the creators decided to age Goten and Trunks, while in the original the status quo was change itself. In Dragon Ball we had characters aging, story changing focus and in "Z portion of the story" we even expected characters will be different each arc, that Gohan will age, that new characters will appear.
Be it Toryiama thinking of new things as he goes, him needing longer limbs, editorial changes... Things kept changing all the time. Super does not have that energy left unfortunately. Every arc seems to be a self contained story stuck in Super limbo and while they aren't bad, they aren't also revolutionary.
Compare it to GT - while everyone is free to see it as a better series or fanfic garbage, it is anything but status quo. They seemed to experiment all the time there.
That seems to be a problem with Super for me in general. They are milking status quo for as long as they can because things which fans are accustomed to, which is working at least properly, which is safe, isn't dangerous.
To be more creative would require some risk, changes, fresh air. And as a multi bilion dolar company Toei can't risk to alienate anyone.
I mean only now in manga and the movie the creators decided to age Goten and Trunks, while in the original the status quo was change itself. In Dragon Ball we had characters aging, story changing focus and in "Z portion of the story" we even expected characters will be different each arc, that Gohan will age, that new characters will appear.
Be it Toryiama thinking of new things as he goes, him needing longer limbs, editorial changes... Things kept changing all the time. Super does not have that energy left unfortunately. Every arc seems to be a self contained story stuck in Super limbo and while they aren't bad, they aren't also revolutionary.
Compare it to GT - while everyone is free to see it as a better series or fanfic garbage, it is anything but status quo. They seemed to experiment all the time there.
- PrinceVegetto
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:39 pm
- Location: Papaya Island
Re: Is Post EoZ Content "Forbidden" Because of GT &/or EoZ serving as Toriyama's official epilogue?
What you said lines up with Toriyama's vision for Super, which he recently said is a series that's a "casual continuation" of DB.GokuHater wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 9:36 am Be it Toryiama thinking of new things as he goes, him needing longer limbs, editorial changes... Things kept changing all the time. Super does not have that energy left unfortunately. Every arc seems to be a self contained story stuck in Super limbo and while they aren't bad, they aren't also revolutionary.
Compare it to GT - while everyone is free to see it as a better series or fanfic garbage, it is anything but status quo. They seemed to experiment all the time there.
GT, on the other hand, is a "grand side-story".
I'm even more convinced now that the end of Super will tie into EoZ and that will be that. Toriyama seems to be perfectly content with how his manga ended.