What makes the handling Dragon Ball different from other franchises that failed to catch on worldwide?

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball definitely had to catch a lot of lucky breaks to get where it's at in the US.

But if it went the way of Saint Seiya or FotNS, it would have been the preferable outcome.

FOTNS was popular here in the states during the 80s and 90s. Heck, they even made an American live action movie out of it. The 1986 animated movie was one of those animated movies that pretty much every anime fan during the VHS days talks about. It was one of those titles along with Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Ninja Scroll, Ghost in the Shell, etc that help anime sell to people in the states. Anime was view as the anti-cartoons because people watch anime to escape from the kids animation on TV.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Taking Cure Dragon at his request and leaving quality out of it for argument's sake, what has always churned my noggin is how often DBZ's novelty is mentioned by those former US kids (of which I was one). Novel as compared to the episodic sitcoms and toothless episodic action cartoons DBZ would have been aired alongside at the time. That almost suggests there was a waiting audience to be claimed by any franchise fighting anime, that anything could have been what Dragon Ball Z became. Dragon Ball Z just happened to be what came along. That the likes of Power Rangers, later Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh! rode so high from relentless marketing blitzes and that same novel "foreign" vibe, it gives the impression that the specific product never really mattered. It raises other interesting questions of why Asian media of all kinds took different trajectories in different regions but then we would be here all day. Saint Seiya's being so popular in some regions but not others you all have mentioned also gives an air of good timing to it all. That is overly simplistic, of course. Not every Japanese hit has international legs, and Dragon Ball Z had a few factors in its favor to both be considered for international release and thrive there.

As I said marketing no doubt helped Dragon Ball, but I don't think any fighting anime would have had the same level of success if they were in the same place at the same time. Regardless of quality, Dragon Ball has broader appeal than many other battle shounen.

Goku is a much more likeable main protagonist than, say, Yusuke Urameshi because kids are drawn to a happy-go-lucky, always positive lover of fighting than the worst punk in high school. The former has more universal appeal and is more easily digestible. As such its safe to assume in some alternate timeline where Gen Fukanaga's uncle was employed by Pierrot not TOEI and Yu Yu Hakusho was the first anime Funimation picked up, dubbed, had success with, and landed a major deal on Toonami it wouldn't have been what Dragon Ball became. Would it have been more successful than it was? Perhaps, but its doubtful it would have reached Dragon Ball's heights even under all the same circumstances.

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball became a big hit all over the world because it was a cartoon that felt different than what else on TV at the time. In America, you had X-Men, Transformers, Batman: TAS, etc, but didn't feature the fast action that DB had.

Saint Seiya was the one franchise I wanted to mention the most. And despite all the censorship DB went through I think DB was luckier. It took 30 years to get a complete uncut Saint Seiya dub. And even now people dont care about it.

Saint Seiya came in too late in America. It should have came out in the early-mid 90s at least on VHS. Viz Media release Ranma 1/2 on VHS and it was a hit. They should have release SS around the same time.

[GhostEmperorX]

FOTNS was popular here in the states during the 80s and 90s. Heck, they even made an American live action movie out of it. The 1986 animated movie was one of those animated movies that pretty much every anime fan during the VHS days talks about. It was one of those titles along with Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Ninja Scroll, Ghost in the Shell, etc that help anime sell to people in the states. Anime was view as the anti-cartoons because people watch anime to escape from the kids animation on TV.

Yes, although it didn't travel through the same kids TV avenue that DB/Z eventually went through (which is mainly what I was getting at) and for that reason is still recognized as is in its proper form. City Hunter being another such example.
With Saint Seiya, it was no doubt also a thing in the VHS tape trader era, especially if there were official attempts to bring it stateside later.

So what I meant was that if DB/Z only remained in that lane (which seems like it wasn't going to happen to begin with considering that it was HG of all companies that had the license first before FUNi stole it) then it wouldn't have had to deal with a lot of the unfortunate developments surrounding it now (primarily in the US/Canada but also wider reaching since apparently they're the ones with the original film master material now because Toei doesn't want to put it to good use like everyone else).

Saint Seiya came in too late in America. It should have came out in the early-mid 90s at least on VHS. Viz Media release Ranma 1/2 on VHS and it was a hit. They should have release SS around the same time.

It's also noteworthy that a bunch of Saint Seiya's clones also became hit series in the US.

[Cure Dragon 255]

FOTNS was popular here in the states during the 80s and 90s. Heck, they even made an American live action movie out of it. The 1986 animated movie was one of those animated movies that pretty much every anime fan during the VHS days talks about. It was one of those titles along with Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Ninja Scroll, Ghost in the Shell, etc that help anime sell to people in the states. Anime was view as the anti-cartoons because people watch anime to escape from the kids animation on TV.

Yes, although it didn't travel through the same kids TV avenue that DB/Z eventually went through (which is mainly what I was getting at) and for that reason is still recognized as is in its proper form. City Hunter being another such example.
With Saint Seiya, it was no doubt also a thing in the VHS tape trader era, especially if there were official attempts to bring it stateside later.

So what I meant was that if DB/Z only remained in that lane (which seems like it wasn't going to happen to begin with considering that it was HG of all companies that had the license first before FUNi stole it) then it wouldn't have had to deal with a lot of the unfortunate developments surrounding it now (primarily in the US/Canada but also wider reaching since apparently they're the ones with the original film master material now because Toei doesn't want to put it to good use like everyone else).

Saint Seiya came in too late in America. It should have came out in the early-mid 90s at least on VHS. Viz Media release Ranma 1/2 on VHS and it was a hit. They should have release SS around the same time.

It's also noteworthy that a bunch of Saint Seiya's clones also became hit series in the US.

Was it? Sailor Moon was indeed a hit in the bootleg world but not Saint Seiya, sadly there are almost NO english sites where this sort of thing could be confirmed or debunked.

[GhostEmperorX]

Was it? Sailor Moon was indeed a hit in the bootleg world but not Saint Seiya, sadly there are almost NO english sites where this sort of thing could be confirmed or debunked.

Well, for what it's worth, I saw at least one video where someone from that era had some tapes of Saint Seiya along with DB/Z and other stuff.
But true, I don't know any specifics about its status there. Wasn't this scene mainly an 80's thing going into the 90's though?

[Cure Dragon 255]

As Late as GT there were bootlegs still.

[Kunzait_83]

In fact, Saint Seiya isn't even a very popular property in its home country.

Nonsense. Saint Seiya was plenty popular in its native Japan during its time.

Unless you're making the mistake of comparing its height of popularity to something like Dragon Ball: in which case MOST things are going to come up short and look not so popular by comparison. Everything from Rurouni Kenshin to Ranma 1/2 would look unpopular and small scale when stacked next to Dragon Ball at its height.

But on a normal metric of popularity? Saint Seiya did more than fine in Japan (and in plenty of foreign markets, particularly in Latin American territories, where it damn near DID reach Dragon Ball levels of popularity). Not absolutely everything needs to be The Beatles of anime (i.e. a once in a lifetime lightning in a bottle example) to be considered popular and successful. That's an idiotic and insane metric to go by.

Was it? Sailor Moon was indeed a hit in the bootleg world but not Saint Seiya, sadly there are almost NO english sites where this sort of thing could be confirmed or debunked.

Saint Seiya did indeed have a more than decently-sized presence in the fansub/bootleg world of the late 80s/early 90s. Not quite as big of one perhaps as Dragon Ball, Macross, Urusei Yatsura, Kimagure Orange Road, Dirty Pair, or the aforementioned Sailor Moon... but it wasn't that far behind them either, and was certainly plenty visible at the time. And yes, there were definitely some English fan sites for it in the very, very early-ass days of the internet (though god knows probably few to none of them are left standing, outside of an Internet Wayback Machine search).

People in 80s and 90s anime communities (both English-speaking and otherwise) certainly knew what Saint Seiya was back then. Again, contrary to what most folks on this site have seemed to believe for much of the last 20 years or so now, anime in the 80s and 90s wasn't this hidden Lost Ark treasure that Japan was keeping hidden away from the eyes of the rest of the entire world behind a lead-lined vault filled with laser trip wires but-for whatever made its way onto broadcast children's TV in chopped and censored fashion. The reality of the time was quite starkly different from that in fact.

FOTNS was popular here in the states during the 80s and 90s. Heck, they even made an American live action movie out of it. The 1986 animated movie was one of those animated movies that pretty much every anime fan during the VHS days talks about. It was one of those titles along with Vampire Hunter D, Akira, Ninja Scroll, Ghost in the Shell, etc that help anime sell to people in the states. Anime was view as the anti-cartoons because people watch anime to escape from the kids animation on TV.

Yes, although it didn't travel through the same kids TV avenue that DB/Z eventually went through (which is mainly what I was getting at) and for that reason is still recognized as is in its proper form. City Hunter being another such example.
With Saint Seiya, it was no doubt also a thing in the VHS tape trader era, especially if there were official attempts to bring it stateside later.

So what I meant was that if DB/Z only remained in that lane (which seems like it wasn't going to happen to begin with considering that it was HG of all companies that had the license first before FUNi stole it) then it wouldn't have had to deal with a lot of the unfortunate developments surrounding it now (primarily in the US/Canada but also wider reaching since apparently they're the ones with the original film master material now because Toei doesn't want to put it to good use like everyone else).

I've said this many times in the past and will continue to say it: Dragon Ball would have been FAR better off - both creatively/artistically as well as in limiting the overall toxicity of the fandom - had this been its North American/Western fate.

Would it have reached the same ubiquitous level of mainstream/commercial height that it did in the U.S.? Probably not: but that isn't (and should never be) the be-all, end-all end goal of absolutely everything, despite what a lot of backseat wannabe marketing executives on this site/in this fanbase seem to think.

There's absolutely nothing at all wrong whatsoever with having an Evil Dead-level of popularity (i.e. absolute peak-height of a B level popularity among a mostly older/adult audience) instead of a Power Rangers-level of popularity (i.e. absolute peak-height level of mainstream ubiquity among primarily an audience of either actual children or man-children). In fact, I personally tend to much prefer that. As would probably most sane, well-balanced people who are over the physical or mental age of 10 and who aren't cult-like obsessively devoted to a capitalistic ideal "forever perpetual growth".

I think that from both a creative/artistic end and from a health of the fanbase perspective, this would have been vastly better for DB overall in the long run: to have been a straight to VHS in the 90s among then-older teens and adults phenomenon instead of a kiddie pow-pow Ninja Turtles-esque phenomenon among kids in the early 2000s.

And my heartless response to all of the people who cry "But... but then that means that I never would've found it or got into it, since I only ever was allowed to watch kids' cartoons on TV back then!" is...

...well, yeah. That's true. Tough shit for you then. Parents shouldn't media-shelter their kids like that in general in the first place: go rail against THAT cultural practice instead, so that kids can get exposed to better, cooler shit at a younger age instead of just shit-ass kiddie cartoons on TV (presuming we're somehow still in an anachronistic culture where TV is even relevant at all: replace that with whatever else paranoid helicopter parents are using to attempt to media-shelter their kids with these days).

(And yeah, before anyone asks given the example I just used above, yes I do in fact also have pretty much the exact same perspective as this when it comes to Ninja Turtles vis-a-vis the Mirage comic vs the 80s cartoon adaptation: not anyone's fault other than sheltering helicopter parents if you weren't allowed to venture inside of a comic book store as a kid during the 80s or 90s)

And as far as FOTNS goes as a prime example of the "popular in the U.S. as a VHS title for adults" goes: I sincerely hope that there are no wannabe-marketing executives in this place who are SO far fucking gone that they'll try and make the argument that FOTNS would've somehow also been better off had it been given the "American kids action cartoon TV" treatment similar to Dragon Ball - which only could've POSSIBLY happened had it been censored and chopped to absolute ribbons to the point of unrecognizability on a level that would've made even Saban-era Dragon Ball look positively restrained by comparison.

To any of those folks in here who are so much as thinking about making that particular argument: may I preemptively suggest being fitted for a straight-jacket instead?

But I STILL would have loved for kids in the USA to fall in love with Saint Seiya, Kunzait can write essay upon essay about how overrated mainstream popularity is and how much artistic integrity is what matters most in the end. To which I agree! But he'll never convince me kids loving and embracing a piece of media as their own as "Not worth it."

And given what overall mainstream media as a broader whole was like in the 80s and 90s (where almost no one other than an insular niche of "concerned parental groups" gave so much as a flying fuck what children were interested in media-wise) vs today (where mewling manchildren and overgrown toddlers obsessively fixating on children's schlock of both yesteryear and today pretty much IS a substantial bulk of the mainstream, and has been since at least the mid-2000s)... I'd argue that the former is at least one solidly specific instance where "we were better off in past decades".

Anime was view as the anti-cartoons because people watch anime to escape from the kids animation on TV.

Seriously guys, this bit of U.S. anime historical trivia is something that has NEVER been stressed nearly enough on this forum (because virtually almost everyone here, with only the tiniest handful of exceptions, were all people who were firmly outside of and ignorant of that realm back during that time, and have never had so much as the slightest intellectual curiosity to go back and at least research it), but its SUPER key to understanding and having a full breadth of the scope of anime's trajectory and history in the U.S.

As such, the historical lens that U.S. anime is always looked at on here is solely on the "kids broadcast TV" end of things, and thus is left laughably, embarrassingly incomplete and leads a lot of people here who do armchair "alternate history" analysis of this stuff to incredibly dumb, ahistorical conclusions.

As Late as GT there were bootlegs still.

Anime fansub VHS bootlegs as a cottage industry in general had lasted WELL into the early 2000s, overlapping with a decent chunk of the early Cartoon Network anime bubble. Most things that had a VHS fansub presence in anime prior to that point still had one by the early aughts in the final waning years of VHS fansub anime's existence: in some cases more so due to the renewed interest in certain titles that had gotten CN exposure.

For reference, you could easily get Cowboy Bebop fansubs on VHS in the late 90s right after the episodes had first aired in Japan, and before they had shown up on CN (that was how me and my friends had first seen it at the time). GT having a very large fansub presence during its original '96-'97 run (to the point where some bits of Japanese GT merch were being sold in some U.S. chain video and comic book outlets at the time) was about the most unremarkable and expected thing about it.

[MasenkoHA]

And my heartless response to all of the people who cry "But... but then that means that I never would've found it or got into it, since I only ever was allowed to watch kids' cartoons on TV back then!" is...

I do find this notion to be more than a bit ridiculous. (Not your statement but the idea some fans have they wouldn't have known about Dragon Ball if it wasn't put on kids television)

I never grew up with Ranma 1/2 or Neon Genesis Evangelion but I certainly heard of those shows through pop culture osmosis, being two of biggest animes in the 90s.





To anyone who thinks they never would have discovered Dragon Ball if it hadn't aired on kids tv syndication/Cartoon Network and went straight to the home video market or on a teen/adult network like Syfy or MTV, bullshit I say. If you had dipped your toes in anime even if it was initially through the likes of Digimon or Sailor Moon or Pokemon you would have inevitably at least heard of the show Dragon Ball at some point.

[Kunzait_83]

And my heartless response to all of the people who cry "But... but then that means that I never would've found it or got into it, since I only ever was allowed to watch kids' cartoons on TV back then!" is...

I do find this notion to be more than a bit ridiculous. (Not your statement but the idea some fans have they wouldn't have known about Dragon Ball if it wasn't put on kids television)

I never grew up with Ranma 1/2 or Neon Genesis Evangelion but I certainly heard of those shows through pop culture osmosis, being two of biggest animes in the 90s.

To anyone who thinks they never would have discovered Dragon Ball if it hadn't aired on kids tv syndication/Cartoon Network and went straight to the home video market or on a teen/adult network like Syfy or MTV, bullshit I say. If you had dipped your toes in anime even if it was initially through the likes of Digimon or Sailor Moon or Pokemon you would have inevitably at least heard of the show Dragon Ball at some point.

This is also true. Plenty of those people more than likely would've still found it and had gotten into it... just at a later time probably.

But that being said, if I learned nothing else from my many years on this site, its to never underestimate how ABSURDLY sheltered and walled-off from wider media a lot of folks in forums like this tend to be: to the point where as late as the early 2010s, there were still a not-insubstantial number of people (even notable regulars) on this forum who, despite being grown well into adulthood, were still *self-sheltering themselves* from non-kids media, as if their parents still had an invisible hold on them from afar.

Those sorts of people who are/were that far gone may well have never found it: most anyone else probably would have though (sooner or later).

[GhostEmperorX]

And my heartless response to all of the people who cry "But... but then that means that I never would've found it or got into it, since I only ever was allowed to watch kids' cartoons on TV back then!" is...

...well, yeah. That's true. Tough shit for you then. Parents shouldn't media-shelter their kids like that in general in the first place: go rail against THAT cultural practice instead, so that kids can get exposed to better, cooler shit at a younger age instead of just shit-ass kiddie cartoons on TV (presuming we're somehow still in an anachronistic culture where TV is even relevant at all: replace that with whatever else paranoid helicopter parents are using to attempt to media-shelter their kids with these days).

Absolutely, this is for the sake of the series and its perception itself, not as a slight against those who came across it in the wrong form and liked it (which they had nothing to do with anyway, though I doubt most of them realize that, just like they don't realize that this isn't about personal preference in the first place).
I also saw that kind of response in a certain place not too long ago. And if they don't like the way the series is in its original presentation, then it's fine, they can likely find something else that works for them (and there's no doubt plenty of that within anime even back then). It's better than holding up a compromised version as the proper one to see

Side note: Glad to see you come on again, I really wanted a chance to apologize for subjecting you and others to many ignorant statements back when I first joined this place 3 years ago (that is, if you saw them), really had no idea what it is I was talking about back then. (I also happened to crib a few of your exact points in this thread, but that's because I finally understand it properly.)

And as far as FOTNS goes as a prime example of the "popular in the U.S. as a VHS title for adults" goes: I sincerely hope that there are no wannabe-marketing executives in this place who are SO far fucking gone that they'll try and make the argument that FOTNS would've somehow also been better off had it been given the "American kids action cartoon TV" treatment similar to Dragon Ball - which only could've POSSIBLY happened had it been censored and chopped to absolute ribbons to the point of unrecognizability on a level that would've made even Saban-era Dragon Ball look positively restrained by comparison.

As with every other example of this, it's nothing more than middle man propaganda.

[Zephyr]

And my heartless response to all of the people who cry "But... but then that means that I never would've found it or got into it, since I only ever was allowed to watch kids' cartoons on TV back then!" is...

I do find this notion to be more than a bit ridiculous. (Not your statement but the idea some fans have they wouldn't have known about Dragon Ball if it wasn't put on kids television)

I never grew up with Ranma 1/2 or Neon Genesis Evangelion but I certainly heard of those shows through pop culture osmosis, being two of biggest animes in the 90s.

Speaking as someone who become aware of, and got into, Dragon Ball via DBZ on Toonami in 1998 at the age of 6, yeah, it'd be practically impossible to somehow not be aware of Dragon Ball by this point in 2023.

Would I have gotten into it, though? That's honestly impossible to say for me, really. I got into DBZ at such a young and formative age, and have been a very big fan of it since then, that it's influenced subsequent interests, hobbies, and friendships I've had over the years in ways that are incalculable. I couldn't begin to outline a plausible alternate reality for myself where I didn't get into DBZ, because it wasn't on Toonami. I don't know if I'd be as into anime in general, or if I was, if I'd be as into fantasy kung fu stuff as I presently am. If I was a fan of fantasy kung fu stuff, yeah, I'd obviously have gotten into Dragon Ball by now. But were I not already into Dragon Ball, would I have been into fantasy kung fu stuff in the first place? I mean, possibly, but I would have no way of knowing how.

But that being said, if I learned nothing else from my many years on this site, its to never underestimate how ABSURDLY sheltered and walled-off from wider media a lot of folks in forums like this tend to be: to the point where as late as the early 2010s, there were still a not-insubstantial number of people (even notable regulars) on this forum who, despite being grown well into adulthood, were still *self-sheltering themselves* from non-kids media, as if their parents still had an invisible hold on them from afar.

Those sorts of people who are/were that far gone may well have never found it: most anyone else probably would have though (sooner or later).

As for this point, it's not even always a matter of parents sheltering, or even a matter of incuriosity. Not everyone grew up with easy access to the internet during their childhood. I didn't have solitary and unmonitored internet access outside of school or a friend's house until the age of 14 in 2006. So there's two phases there where I was poised to potentially do research and look for and discover new things. In the first phase, prior to getting internet access, I'd have been subject to whatever I saw on TV, or in print, or at stores and shops, or what I'd have heard of by word of mouth. In both phases, there's the constraint that you don't know what you don't know. It's impossible to know that Dragon Ball is just out there waiting to be discovered by me if I've yet to discover it. And while that doesn't mean I couldn't discover it, there's still no guarantee that I would, or that it would grab me.

There's a lot of stuff out there competing for a person's attention. There's only so much time in a day, and only so much of that is leisure time. The sheer amount of options available can be daunting, even overwhelming and discouraging. You don't know that X thing you could look into will be interesting and/or worthwhile, and you don't know that it won't be. So sometimes you pick your battles, and go with something you think will be more interesting; sometimes that results in you going further down a rabbit hole, and sometimes it doesn't. Each time is a roll of the dice with your limited free time.

Speaking personally, I can't really remember much about my life prior to the age of 5, and I only lived with my parents until the age of 10. That stretch of time between 1996 and 2002 was very formative for me and my interests and sensibilities. During that time, I can recall exactly two instances of my parents having any interest in the way I was consuming media:
1. while playing Mortal Kombat or Primal Rage on my Genesis, my mom talking to me and making sure I understood that this is fantasy violence, isn't real, shouldn't inform how I treat other people, etc etc.
2. my dad telling me to go play outside if I was playing video games a lot, which I mean, fair honestly

During this stretch of time, we had three video game consoles: an NES, a Genesis, and a PS1. The Genesis was technically my sister's, and the PS1 was technically my dad's, but I played them the most and would bring them with me to friends' houses; so they were effectively mine. We honestly had a pretty sizeable library across all three platforms, and we even had the Sega Channel for a brief period of time. So it's hard to say I was ever exactly wanting for more new games to play. And given that video games were the main form of media consumption I engaged in during my free time, I wasn't exactly hungry for more new stuff to consume. I had plenty of games I hadn't beaten yet.

Another important factor here is that my parents, especially my dad, love being in nature. When I was 4 years old we lived in a plywood cabin for a few months, in Alaska. Suffice to say that I did not come from a family who thought of going through the gauntlet that is the endless art and media rabbithole as a very huge priority in life. Much more, active, outdoorsy, DIY, and off-the-grid kind of people. Today my dad literally lives in a camp in the woods (thankfully not in Alaska). So, I wasn't sheltered in my media consumption, but I also wasn't exactly encouraged to go and stretch my wings and push the boundaries of my aesthetic sensibilities. I certainly technically could have asked my parents to take me to the public library where I could browse the internet and learn about foreign works and chat with people online, or let me rent anime tapes from Blockbuster, or import things from Japan, or what have you, but the thought never really crossed my mind.

So between being from a very "go play outside" kind of family, and already having a ton of video games, it would have been contextually pretty silly to want for more than I already had. But then there's the big third factor, which is domestic violence. My dad had been yelling, breaking things, and abusing my mom since I was an infant, as far as I'm aware. So I was a very timid child, and wouldn't have really dared to ask my often terrifying father for new games, or anime tapes, or the like.

The fourth factor is friends. If one's home life doesn't exactly facilitate the exploration of new art and media, then sometimes your friends' might. I had one friend in particular whose parents would take us to Blockbuster, and her grandparents had a computer with the internet. But the other side of this coin is that you're not doing this stuff solo. You can only rent so many tapes at a time, and you're only allowed on the computer for so long. And multiple people are coming at these opportunities with different tastes and priorities. We'd usually end up renting episodes of the Pokemon anime; I do recall a time I really wanted to rent the Sonic OVA, and she didn't (despite herself being a Sonic fan), but she caved and we did; there was also a time where her parents rented Candyman, which was great. So anime was not really an avenue we were going to branching out in, with live action horror being the usual type of adult-aimed content we'd see. At the computer, we'd usually be playing flash games on Cartoon Network's website, though Ski Resort Tycoon was also installed on the computer which was pretty cozy.

---

So, given all of this, had I not seen DBZ on TV the way I did, there's no way of telling if I'd have gotten into it whenever I finally did come across it. Really unlikely I'd have thought to rent it from Blockbuster when going there with my friends' parents, and if I did then fat chance I'd have convinced her to give it a shot (I remember us both thinking DBZ looked stupid based on the initial Toonami promos, but we did both become fans after actually watching it). I'd have probably still learned of its existence in 2006 when I finally got the chance to freely look stuff up online in my leisure time, but there's no guaranteeing that I'd have actively sought out anything resembling it, so who knows how long it would have taken before I thought "maybe I'll check this out".

I certainly wouldn't have signed up for this place in 2010, and I'd certainly not be as interested in discussing art and media the way I am now. The process of coming to appreciate Dragon Ball's Japanese version helped provide a framework for my appreciation of foreign works in general, and of things like the DNA that creators add to works they make. That Wuxia Thread did a lot to help me appreciate the importance that antecedents can have on a work.

And that's all a bigger deal to me than "I know about this cartoon". Ain't even about the cartoon at this point. Maybe some other show might have taken its place? Maybe something else would have grabbed my attention, hooked me into being a fan for over a decade, motivated me to sign up for a message board, have been so poorly localized that discussions about it on that message board stimulated my thinking about localization in general, had such a poorly understood genre make up in the mainstream popular culture that it motivated the creation of an incredibly thorough breakdown as to its influences on that message board which made me reflect more on how art gets influenced and remixed by other art? Maybe. I sure as hell don't know what, but I can't say it wouldn't or couldn't have happened. Sure feels like it was a perfect storm though, honestly.

So, I've had immense personal intellectual benefit from the utter mess that English speaking Dragon Ball fandom became as a result of a shitty Texan company acquiring the license through nepotism and butchering it to Hell and back. And, upon reflection, I can't say I'd change it, unfortunately.

After all, I've found enough circles to discuss DB in that focus on the Japanese side of things and treat it like one among countless other martial arts stories about martial artists doing martial arts. And, honestly, I don't even end up discussing Dragon Ball in those places very often, and when I do, there's not even a whole lot to say at this point! So the wider fandom not engaging the story and the IP in this way isn't even depriving me of something I desperately need, or anything like that.

[MasenkoHA]

Speaking as someone who become aware of, and got into, Dragon Ball via DBZ on Toonami in 1998 at the age of 6, yeah, it'd be practically impossible to somehow not be aware of Dragon Ball by this point in 2023.

Would I have gotten into it, though? That's honestly impossible to say for me, really. I got into DBZ at such a young and formative age, and have been a very big fan of it since then, that it's influenced subsequent interests, hobbies, and friendships I've had over the years in ways that are incalculable. I couldn't begin to outline a plausible alternate reality for myself where I didn't get into DBZ, because it wasn't on Toonami. I don't know if I'd be as into anime in general, or if I was, if I'd be as into fantasy kung fu stuff as I presently am. If I was a fan of fantasy kung fu stuff, yeah, I'd obviously have gotten into Dragon Ball by now. But were I not already into Dragon Ball, would I have been into fantasy kung fu stuff in the first place? I mean, possibly, but I would have no way of knowing how.

I do think it is fair to assess a lot of people on here may have never watched Dragon Ball, even if they had heard of it, if they hadn't grown up with as kids and had gotten nostalgic attachment to it. But, I think a lot of fans on here are largely "shonen anime" fans and if they had gotten into that through One Piece or Naruto or Yu-gi-oh they inevitably would have probably checked Dragon Ball out simply for it's reputation as THE shonen anime, which,yes, it absolutely would of had that reputation even if it hadn't gotten mainstream kidvid success in North America. Even now I'll see the occasional Reddit thread of someone who never grew up with Dragon Ball (presumably because they didn't have cable tv, were forbidden from watching it by their parents or were simply too young in its American heyday) asking what's the best way to get into the series, with fans eager to give their input "Start with Z that's what we all did" "You must watch the original Dragon Ball first" "Watch Kai instead it skips most of the filler."

I could be wrong, but it sounds like Dragon Ball was more of a gateway to fantasy kung fu media for you, whereas for most members on here Dragon Ball was a gateway anime series and with or without Dragon Ball anime was getting bigger and bigger anyways. The only real change is people would be crediting Yu-gi-oh or Pokemon or Naruto as what got them into anime instead of DBZ

[Zephyr]

I do think it is fair to assess a lot of people on here may have never watched Dragon Ball, even if they had heard of it, if they hadn't grown up with as kids and had gotten nostalgic attachment to it. But, I think a lot of fans on here are largely "shonen anime" fans and if they had gotten into that through One Piece or Naruto or Yu-gi-oh they inevitably would have probably checked Dragon Ball out simply for it's reputation as THE shonen anime, which,yes, it absolutely would of had that reputation even if it hadn't gotten mainstream kidvid success in North America. Even now I'll see the occasional Reddit thread of someone who never grew up with Dragon Ball (presumably because they didn't have cable tv, were forbidden from watching it by their parents or were simply too young in its American heyday) asking what's the best way to get into the series, with fans eager to give their input "Start with Z that's what we all did" "You must watch the original Dragon Ball first" "Watch Kai instead it skips most of the filler."

I could be wrong, but it sounds like Dragon Ball was more of a gateway to fantasy kung fu media for you, whereas for most members on here Dragon Ball was a gateway anime series and with or without Dragon Ball anime was getting bigger and bigger anyways. The only real change is people would be crediting Yu-gi-oh or Pokemon or Naruto as what got them into anime instead of DBZ

Yeah, I can only speak for myself with regards to whether or not I'd have likely checked Dragon Ball out online in this alternate timeline. Dragon Ball was indeed not my 'gateway into anime', since I was already watching Voltron and Sailor Moon on Toonami when it started playing on Cartoon Network. In trying to imagine what my tastes would be like without Dragon Ball, and thus trying to guess if they would have pointed me in its direction anyway, the best I can do is to dig up one of my very early posts here from 2010 where I explain my relationship to the medium in general, as well as listing some titles that I liked and disliked:

Spoiler:

I'm not a fan of Anime/Manga in general, but there are plenty that I like (if that makes any sense).

Ones I like include:
Ronin Warriors
Kikaider
G Gundam
Cowboy Bebop
Ruroni Kenshin
Trigun
Scryed
Big O
Yu Yu Hakusho
Outlaw Star
and of course Dragonball (Z).

Ones I can't stand:
Naruto
Bleach
Death Note

And I'm entirely indifferent towards One Piece.

Plenty of shonen anime here, and even some Shonen Anime™, as well as some fantasy kung fu stuff, between G Gundam and Yu Yu Hakusho. Though notably absent is anything that didn't air on Toonami, Adult Swim, or the Fox Box (where I saw One Piece). So, by 2010, I wasn't yet making a conscious effort to step outside of that realm. The very next year, however, I began dating my now-wife, and she introduced me to a ton of stuff from outside of that realm, including stuff I now consider favorites like Azumanga Daioh, Berserk, Perfect Blue, Millennium Actress, Monster, and 20th Century Boys. Dragon Ball played no part in my meeting or courting her, so that would have happened anyway. It's very possible that after 2011 I'd have checked Dragon Ball out.

One thing does remain unclear, though. And that is how my interest in Dragon Ball, from the age of 6, may or may not have influenced my tastes, sensibilities, and interests, such that other fantasy kung fu stuff like Yu Yu Hakusho and G Gundam me grabbed when I saw them on Cartoon Network. Or how my interest in Dragon Ball may or may not influenced my bouncing off of things like Naruto and Bleach.

Hell, thinking more about it, I'm not even fully sure Dragon Ball was my gateway to fantasy kung fu media. Do TMNT and MMPR count? There's no flying around or firing ki blasts, but they do involve martial artists doing martial arts? I couldn't give you specific examples beyond some really broad strokes, because, as said, my memory from before the age of 5 is very spotty and fuzzy, and it was pretty much exclusively during that primordial section of my life that my "TMNT and MMPR fandoms" could be said to have existed. So I don't remember a single solitary episode of either, and couldn't tell you what grabbed me about them in the first place. All that being said though, I think having been a fan of both of those during my infancy would have definitely made me likely to be grabbed by Yu Yu Hakusho and G Gundam on Cartoon Network, such that I may have eventually sought out Dragon Ball at some point in 2011, or later.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

Well, now that this thread has basically turned into another “was it good for Funi to get the DB license” thread, I guess I should offer my two cents.

In my opinion, there’s a dichotomy being assumed with these replies that might not necessarily be true: “Either DB was butchered by Funi and became wildly popular, or it was adapted respectfully and stayed as an obscure cult classic.” I think this idea comes from a wild misunderstanding of what made DBZ popular in the first place. It wasn’t anything that Funimation did that made DBZ a phenomenon; it was being broadcast on Toonami.

Seriously, I can not underestimate how important Cartoon Network was for anime gaining mainstream recognition in the Anglosphere. Pretty much every “classic” 90s and 2000s anime that US anime fans love was broadcast on either Toonami or Adult Swim at some point (unless it was on 4Kids, obviously). And Dragon Ball was no exception. Remember, every attempt at dubbing the franchise failed to make it a hit… until it was shown on Toonami.

It wouldn’t matter who got the rights, how good the dub was, and for what demographic it was intended: as long as Cartoon Network got the rights to show Dragon Ball on their brand-new anime programming block, it would be a hit. Which just makes it more upsetting that Gen Fukunaga and his idiot crew happened to be the ones to strike gold.

[GhostEmperorX]

it was being broadcast on Toonami.

Seriously, I can not underestimate how important Cartoon Network was for anime gaining mainstream recognition in the Anglosphere. Pretty much every “classic” 90s and 2000s anime that US anime fans love was broadcast on either Toonami or Adult Swim at some point (unless it was on 4Kids, obviously). And Dragon Ball was no exception. Remember, every attempt at dubbing the franchise failed to make it a hit… until it was shown on Toonami.

However, it (the Z series) was apparently a hit back in syndication even during the Saban-Ocean era, which was pre-Toonami. Not that it couldn't air on that network either uncut or without massive changes like the BGM or most things from syndication (see the Gundam series that ended up on there, namely W and G which did get changed to some degree albeit not as extensively), but it wasn't exactly what made the show a hit the first time either.

Apparently the Pioneer movie dubs had TV airings as well, without those aforementioned massive changes, so that would support your main point. But it's possible that the ones who would have respectfully adapted it probably wouldn't have looked in the direction of TV.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Well, now that this thread has basically turned into another “was it good for Funi to get the DB license” thread, I guess I should offer my two cents.

In my opinion, there’s a dichotomy being assumed with these replies that might not necessarily be true: “Either DB was butchered by Funi and became wildly popular, or it was adapted respectfully and stayed as an obscure cult classic.” I think this idea comes from a wild misunderstanding of what made DBZ popular in the first place. It wasn’t anything that Funimation did that made DBZ a phenomenon; it was being broadcast on Toonami.

Seriously, I can not underestimate how important Cartoon Network was for anime gaining mainstream recognition in the Anglosphere. Pretty much every “classic” 90s and 2000s anime that US anime fans love was broadcast on either Toonami or Adult Swim at some point (unless it was on 4Kids, obviously). And Dragon Ball was no exception. Remember, every attempt at dubbing the franchise failed to make it a hit… until it was shown on Toonami.

It wouldn’t matter who got the rights, how good the dub was, and for what demographic it was intended: as long as Cartoon Network got the rights to show Dragon Ball on their brand-new anime programming block, it would be a hit. Which just makes it more upsetting that Gen Fukunaga and his idiot crew happened to be the ones to strike gold.

I actually want to make clear this isnt the was it good for Funi to get the DB license thread. I explicitly mentioned other companies and so on that aimed DB at kids for better or worse.

[ZeroIsOurHero]

However, it (the Z series) was apparently a hit back in syndication even during the Saban-Ocean era, which was pre-Toonami. Not that it couldn't air on that network either uncut or without massive changes like the BGM or most things from syndication (see the Gundam series that ended up on there, namely W and G which did get changed to some degree albeit not as extensively), but it wasn't exactly what made the show a hit the first time either.

But if the Saban dub was such a hit, then why did it get canceled? It’s not like they wanted to cancel it or anything, it’s just that Saban didn’t have much faith in it, most likely because of poor ratings. And even if it was a moderate hit, Toonami elevated the series from “decently popular cult classic” to “literal nationwide phenomenon”.

But it's possible that the ones who would have respectfully adapted it probably wouldn't have looked in the direction of TV.

That is certainly possible, yes. However, I’d say odds are that whatever company bought the rights in Funi’s absence would be at least somewhat open to their dub reaching a much wider audience. I’m mainly thinking of series like Tenchi Muyo and Inuyasha here: series that got incredibly faithful, uncut dubs for the home video market, and were later brought over to Toonami with massive success. Dragon Ball is a kids series at heart, so I doubt whoever owned the rights to it would be reluctant to let kids actually watch it.

[Cure Dragon 255]

However, it (the Z series) was apparently a hit back in syndication even during the Saban-Ocean era, which was pre-Toonami. Not that it couldn't air on that network either uncut or without massive changes like the BGM or most things from syndication (see the Gundam series that ended up on there, namely W and G which did get changed to some degree albeit not as extensively), but it wasn't exactly what made the show a hit the first time either.

But if the Saban dub was such a hit, then why did it get canceled? It’s not like they wanted to cancel it or anything, it’s just that Saban didn’t have much faith in it, most likely because of poor ratings. And even if it was a moderate hit, Toonami elevated the series from “decently popular cult classic” to “literal nationwide phenomenon”.

But it's possible that the ones who would have respectfully adapted it probably wouldn't have looked in the direction of TV.

That is certainly possible, yes. However, I’d say odds are that whatever company bought the rights in Funi’s absence would be at least somewhat open to their dub reaching a much wider audience. I’m mainly thinking of series like Tenchi Muyo and Inuyasha here: series that got incredibly faithful, uncut dubs for the home video market, and were later brought over to Toonami with massive success. Dragon Ball is a kids series at heart, so I doubt whoever owned the rights to it would be reluctant to let kids actually watch it.

I dont mean to be rude but you are going agaisnt the actual, tangible proof DBZ was a success in Syndication. And it did NOT get cancelled, its just that since Funi wanted to cut corners they fired Ocean and went to Texas. I agree Toonami did make DBZ into a nationwide phenomenon.

[MasenkoHA]

[quote]
But if the Saban dub was such a hit, then why did it get canceled? It’s not like they wanted to cancel it or anything, it’s just that Saban didn’t have much faith in it, most likely because of poor ratings. And even if it was a moderate hit, Toonami elevated the series from “decently popular cult classic” to “literal nationwide phenomenon”.[/quote]

As Cure Dragon said it wasn't canceled.

Saban pulled out of the syndication business to focus on their acquisition of the Fox Kids network and Fox Family channel. Gen Fukanaga was able to get a deal with Cartoon Network to run the show there with more episodes to be ordered if if it was warranted (and new episodes were announced less than 6 months after DBZ made it's debut on Toonami)

It was a top rated syndicated kids show. It was given an hour time slot in its second year because if its success.This idea it didn't do so well until Cartoon Network gave it a chance is a myth. Toonami picked it up and gave it a choice after school timeslot from the word go BECAUSE it was a proven success all they wanted to see that it could keep that momentum before committing to more episodes.



[quote]
, and were later brought over to Toonami with massive success. Dragon Ball is a kids series at heart, so I doubt whoever owned the rights to it would be reluctant to let kids actually watch it.[/quote]


Inuyasha and Ramna 1/2 are also in the exact same demo as Dragon Ball (and I think Tenchi as well)

And we've seen faithful Dragon Ball even when edited to kids tv standards. See the Toonami edited versions of the first 2 Z movies and Dragon Ball Kai on Nicktoons. Edited for content doesn't excuse complete rewrites in scripts just cuz, replacement music, and miscasted/misdirected actors.