How do the other Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin fit now?

[MasenkoHA]

In the original manga we had the 4 Kaio and then Dai Kaio above them and the 4 Kaioshin above him and the Dai Kaioshin above him. This seems a bit redundant to me. If we have 4 Kaios watching over a different cardinal direction of the universe and a Dai Kaio above them why do we need 4 even more powerful Kaio above them who ALSO apparently watch over a different cardinal direction of the universe. What exactly does North Kaioshin do over North Kaio?

Super seemed to have streamlined things so its just one Kaioshin over the four Kaio which makes way more sense to me.

But, I think we're suppose to still see the 3 Kaioshin Majin Buu killed/absorbed and Dai Kaioshin as canon right? Mr. Buu exist as he does because Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin so Toriyama and Toyatoro can't exactly ignore his existence.

[Grimlock]

What exactly does North Kaioshin do over North Kaio?

The former (supposedly) creates planet and life and the latter provides some help without getting involved.

Super seemed to have streamlined things so its just one Kaioshin over the four Kaio which makes way more sense to me.

It just complicated things to me. There should be five Kaioshins in the other Universes as well.

[MasenkoHA]

What exactly does North Kaioshin do over North Kaio?

The former (supposedly) creates planet and life and the latter provides some help without getting involved.

Toriyama's own wording makes it seem like there is one Kaioshin and 4 Kaios. I think he forgot there was even 3 other Kaioshin. I don't even recall if it was even suggested during the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai portion if Shin was one of 4 Kaioshin in the universe or if the 4 Kaioshin and a Dai Kaioshin came up when Kid Buu appeared.

It just complicated things to me. There should be five Kaioshins in the other Universes as well.

There should also probably be one God of Destruction for every Kaioshin. Buu killing the other 3 didn't impact Beerus's life but Shin's death would? Shouldn't there be a Dai God of Destruction as a counterpart to Dai Kaioshin?


Regardless, it makes more sense the way Super has it. One Kaioshin to create life in the universe and 4 Kaios under him to watch over a different cardinal direction of the universe and a God of Destruction to act as the Kaioshin's opposite and destroy worlds

[Grimlock]

Toriyama's own wording makes it seem like there is one Kaioshin and 4 Kaios. I think he forgot there was even 3 other Kaioshin. I don't even recall if it was even suggested during the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai portion if Shin was one of 4 Kaioshin in the universe or if the 4 Kaioshin and a Dai Kaioshin came up when Kid Buu appeared.

The latter. Two of them were killed and the other two absorbed. The anime expanded on this by actually showing them fighting Buu.

There should also probably be one God of Destruction for every Kaioshin. Buu killing the other 3 didn't impact Beerus's life but Shin's death would?

That's correct. A testament of how things are "thought-out" by Toriyama.

Shouldn't there be a Dai God of Destruction as a counterpart to Dai Kaioshin?

Probably. On that same note, if there is Daishinkan, I'm pretty convinced there should be Shinkans as well.

(Every time I think about this, I have a feeling the spelling would be "Dai Shinkan"...).

Regardless, it makes more sense the way Super has it. One Kaioshin to create life in the universe and 4 Kaios under him to watch over a different cardinal direction of the universe and a God of Destruction to act as the Kaioshin's opposite and destroy worlds

The Universe is a big place. There should also be a Kaioshin for each direction to create planets and lives there. I'm not a fan of Dragon Ball constantly forgetting the existence of Dai Kaio as well.

[MasenkoHA]

. I'm not a fan of Dragon Ball constantly forgetting the existence of Dai Kaio as well.

Right, I thought it was weird Zamasu, a Kaio, was in training to be a Kaioshin when his next step in the ladder would be a Dai Kaio

[Zephyr]

In the original manga we had the 4 Kaio and then Dai Kaio above them and the 4 Kaioshin above him and the Dai Kaioshin above him. This seems a bit redundant to me. If we have 4 Kaios watching over a different cardinal direction of the universe and a Dai Kaio above them why do we need 4 even more powerful Kaio above them who ALSO apparently watch over a different cardinal direction of the universe. What exactly does North Kaioshin do over North Kaio?

Super seemed to have streamlined things so its just one Kaioshin over the four Kaio which makes way more sense to me.

But, I think we're suppose to still see the 3 Kaioshin Majin Buu killed/absorbed and Dai Kaioshin as canon right? Mr. Buu exist as he does because Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin so Toriyama and Toyatoro can't exactly ignore his existence.

I believe the North Kaioshin administers the Northern cardinal direction of the afterlife, as well.

As for how the Dai Kaioshin and the four cardinal Kaioshin fit into the scheme provided by Super, I've just assumed that the Dai Kaioshin is "the Kaioshin of the 7th Universe", and he just happened to have four apprentices, as opposed to one (as in the case of Zamasu being Gowasu's apprentice in Universe 10).

As for the link to the Hakaishin, I guess maybe it was shared between the five, and all five of them need to die in order for Beerus to die? Maybe that's why the Dai Kaioshin had apprentices (and so many of them) in the first place. Alternatively, maybe the "link" to Beerus was passed on from the Dai Kaioshin to the East Kaioshin before the former was absorbed. They have to be able to transfer that "link" somehow; given that Beerus was around at the same time as the Kaioshin from 15 generations ago, he seems to have a much longer natural lifespan.

[MasenkoHA]

As for how the Dai Kaioshin and the four cardinal Kaioshin fit into the scheme provided by Super, I've just assumed that the Dai Kaioshin is "the Kaioshin of the 7th Universe", and he just happened to have four apprentices, as opposed to one (as in the case of Zamasu being Gowasu's apprentice in Universe 10).

That makes sense. Dai Kaioshin was the true Kaioshin of Universe 7 and Shin was promoted after Dai Kaioshin got absorbed and the rest were killed/absorbed

[nineko]

Right, I thought it was weird Zamasu, a Kaio, was in training to be a Kaioshin when his next step in the ladder would be a Dai Kaio

This is even werider if you remember that "our" Kaioh didn't even know how Shin looked like, until the latter revealed himself during the Boo arc. It looks like some Kaiohshins are more secretive than others (though it might have been Kibito's fault in this particular case, given how strict he was).

On a semi-related note, while Kaioh didn't know much about Shin, he sure knew all about Beerus.

Now that I think about it, the destruction ladder is missing the step equivalent to the regular Kaioh level, since there only is the god.

[SupremeKai25]

We have already seen that U6 Supreme Kai has various attendants, who can just be headcanon'd to help the Supreme Kai rule. Other Supreme Kais will have their own attendants, we didn't see Gowasu's simply because it wasn't important to the plot and/or they were elsewhere in the planet of the Kais.

Alternatively, you can simply headcanon that U7 is larger than the other universes (it being the "Main" universe of the series and the one where the massive Super Dragon Balls are kept) and so U7 requires several Supreme Kais. While the other universes are smaller and only one Supreme Kai is needed to rule them.

Zamasu was able to jump from North Kai to Supreme Kai and skip the Dai Kai tier because of his immense fighting potential and genius, so he was exception. Even the Angel Whis praised Zamasu for his fighting skills and genius, so it is not a surprise that Gowasu made an exception and hand-picked him as his successor, even though he was "just a lowly" North Kai.

[Cipher]

But, I think we're suppose to still see the 3 Kaioshin Majin Buu killed/absorbed and Dai Kaioshin as canon right? Mr. Buu exist as he does because Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin so Toriyama and Toyatoro can't exactly ignore his existence.

Dai Kaioshin and the existence of other previous Kaioshin directly come up in a big way in the Moro arc, so they haven't been written out of the story's history at least as far as the Super manga is concerned.

It does seem like it was kind of streamlined behind the scenes for the other universes though. I suppose Shin is just promoted to Dai Kaioshin upon the original's death, and that that link is the one that matters for Beerus. Maybe Universe 7 had a unique structure, with Dai Kaioshin really being its true Kaioshin, and the other four his apprentices. Or maybe all the universes used to work that way and restructured at some point. Who knows?

[Thani]

Who knows?

Toriyama, maybe, but he for sure ain't sharing that info

Nowadays I just imagine that the other kaioshin were just the 4 Kaioh of the time that Buu attacked, with Dai Kaioshin being the actual Kaioshin. Thus, before he fought Buu and died, he passed on the mantle to Shin, the only kaioh that remained.

All headcanon of course, but until they sort this mess it's what I have.

And I do prefer the streamlined setup as well. Could have the Dai Kaioh as a bridge between the 4 Kaioh and the Kaioshin, but it's largely unneeded. It does make for a good twist reveal in the Buu saga when Piccolo was to fight Shin, tho!

[theherodjl]

Dai Kaioshin isn't dead, he's just been transformed into the Good Boo with his original personality remaining dormant most of the time. However, the link with Beerus apparently only accounts for whichever Kaioshin is left to claim the title; and since Shin was the only alive & pure Kaioshin out of them all, he was seemingly appointed by default.

[Vegard Aune]

Short answer is... they just don't. Toriyama forgot they existed and unwittingly retconned the lore he had established. Didn't he also in 2013-ish introduce some new backstory for the Kaioshin that was completely at odds with the manga, too? And then later the whole "They are tied to the Gods of Destruction" thing kinda broke that backstory as well?

...This all does make it somewhat awkward that Toyotaro then decided to bring Dai Kaioshin back into the story, though. One would think that in light of this new lore where one really has to squint and make several assumptions for things to even fit together at all, they would just opt to pretend Dai Kaioshin was never a thing.

[Skar]

Since U10 had a North Kai, I assumed every universe had the same setup of four cardinal direction Kais and Kaioshin and they only invited each Grand Kaioshin to the ToP. I was confused how Zamasu was a Kai though since he looked like a Kaioshin and not like U7 Kais we're seen before. Maybe Toriyama forgot the explanation he gave about them being born from different fruits. I recall he gave another conflicting explanation about there being three Kaioshin per universe or something so maybe he forgot both and just thought that all the Kaioshin started out as Kais before being promoted.

[Majin Buu]

Perhaps Universe 7 was simply unique in having multiple Kaioshin serving at once.

Doesn't the Super manga establish that Dai Kaioshin wasn't very smart? That convoluted set up being the fault of a not very smart person in charge doesn't seem farfetched.

[Ronin]

I think it's mentioned in Daizenshuu 7 that the difference between the Kaio and Kaioshin is that the Kaioshin look over the living and the dead and the Kaios only look over the living. So the Dai Kaio and Dai Kaioshin are the head honchos of their groups, respectively.

I think it's weird that they apparently never got any replacements or tried to bring back the ones who were absorbed; even after Buu was beaten. Probably just a result of Toriyama not planning stuff out.

[ankokudaishogun]

DaiKaiohshin was just a Kaiohshin who had to chose a successor, but kept getting distracted\forgetting so he did end up gathering AND PROMOTING four Kaiohs. He wasn't one to sweat over details, and Beerus was perfectly fine having multiple Kaioshin backup should one or EVEN two manage the absurdly difficult challenge to get themselves killed.

So, yeah.