Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Rafa Fast wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:52 pm
.....eavesdrops....idk man, didn't Akira do what he wanted in the manga?
How to spell it... no more?
TOEI incited Toriyama to write *subjects* on call for Super, as BoG was successful by Toriyama partnership too. In the meanwhile, another guy you met that morning is allowed to debate on you about how making Vegeta the star of this story. Add the manga is subsidiary to the TV show and the timeslot was especially made for kids.
Oh, and Dragon Ball Room, that decide what's proper and whatsnot.
You work very hand tied.
I will be not surprised if subjects were wrote mostly by external impulse, like "sensei, write something about a fallen Kaioshin" and he came up with Zamasu. "Official idea by Toriyama! We own it" then expand from it on the fly - I do remember how producers lamented this messy workflow.
This impression is reinforced by the fact arcs were self contained. No one was asked to write an actual plot behind Super as a whole. Toriyama had the full vision of the narrative universe, but was asked just to extrapolate tidbits from it.
That's why Toriyama is clearly pointing out this time he wrote a full story, not just subjects. Subjects alone doesn't make a narration. So you'll know is cohesive and (rationally) cohesive with his narrative style for once.
Last edited by ChronoTwigger on Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I learned english listening to songs. So I don't know anything about. The day you had to learn play piano by just listening .mp3, you'll understand.
I'm disappointed but I'll give it a try. Super's manga, Moro and Granolah's arc were trash. I'm curious what this Daima brings to the table. I hope they're going to be kids for like few episodes and after that we'll get back to grown up Goku (I like GT Goku but I'm not a fan of rehashing ideas).
"If it means having to live under your control, I'd rather be dead!" - Trunks
English is not my first language, if I've made a mistake, please, feel free to correct me. It will help, thanks.
Unlike the majority who usually like to disdain anything made by Toei regarding the franchise, I consider these two designs the best for the younger versions of Vegeta and Mutenroshi.
Spoiler:
And no, I don't care if they are or not part of the "canon," what matters to me is that it's ridiculous for Vegeta to be bald since childhood and for Mutenroshi to have always been bald since birth.
Also funny to notice that there were indications since DBS (or BoG) that the series would likely take this direction: Toriyama always liked the Pilaf Gang, so I wouldn't doubt it was his idea to have them having a role in GT, but knowing he couldn't reintroduce them in DBS as senior villains, the tactic was to rejuvenate them. This even served for Mai to form a bizarre romantic pair with Future Trunks. Toriyama also has an aversion not only to aging his characters, but also to going beyond the EoZ. He hinted in past interviews that he wouldn't know if it would be interesting to have a story where a large part of the cast is too old to contribute (which I strongly disagree with).
Analyzing from this perspective and coupled with a tactic to avoid power creep that always haunts the franchise, it makes sense that Toriyama followed this path. I hope he can really show us an interesting story or, if not, that it serves as a way for him to retire and let others have more creative freedom over his own series.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
I’ve been thinking and speculating about the creative process behind this series, and just how long Toriyama may have been cooking it up. It’s very possible that DAIMA represents Toriyama’s true vision for how he wanted Dragon Ball to continue which was never quite realized as he imagined it, until now.
As we all know, the idea of Goku being reverted into a child form was one of the key premises in Toriyama’s concept for Dragon Ball GT. Although he had no intention of being hands-on in the production after just completing the manga run, he was the one who fielded the idea of how Goku’s journey might continue after beating Buu.
As we also all know, Battle of Gods was first conceptualised by Toei’s writers before Toriyama latched onto the project and completely reworked it. Notably, the rewritten script still contains a plot beat of a major character (or three) being magically de-aged by the Dragon Balls, though Toriyama held off on repeating this same beat for Goku — although he is a hermit, I can’t imagine he was unaware of how controversial the decision to de-age him in GT was, and Battle of Gods was meant to be a feel-good movie for the masses in the wake of the tsunami. Nearly everything written after that has been designed to pander to the Z era nostalgia with big fights and transformations. Toriyama outright admitted that he wrote Resurrection ‘F’ specifically to appeal to fans of that stuff.
I don’t want to act like Toriyama is some 5D chess player with a grand plan because we all know he isn’t, but it’s quite possible that his tendency to write Goku (in the rare instances where he directly gets involved) in a more naive, selfish and childish way is a holdover from his original desire to de-age Goku. If he couldn’t regress him physically, he could do it psychologically.
I don’t think Toriyama would ever fully retcon Dragon Ball Super. He likes Beerus too much and he must acknowledge how influential the new stories have been, not just for the franchise but on a global level. But I predict DAIMA is a soft “requel” of sorts, showing how Toriyama would’ve done a Dragon Ball sequel without interference from anyone else. In a sense, DAIMA isn’t subverting expectations because Toriyama has been telegraphing his desire to tell a more low-stakes adventure story about Goku transforming back into a kid since the ‘90s. He just never got around to actually writing it himself. I don’t believe he’s trolling or being spiteful as some are suggesting — he sincerely believes this is where the story needs to go. And if that goes against what some people want or expect, so be it.
Anyway, Shin definitely has a big role to play here. He’s not the kind of crowd-pleasing character to be focused on in trailers unless there’s good reason for it. I was just spitballing about the wish defusing Shin and Kibito but the more I look at it, the more likely it seems.
Recall the popular speculation surrounding the Yamoshi teaser, which turned out to be a misdirection, and imagine the excitement that a revived Garlic Jr. could generate among Dragon Ball fans. Possible improved version:
Consider the possibility that Garlic Jr. could return from the Dead Zone and serve as the main antagonist in this story. Time travel and multiverse elements are involved, which may establish a connection between the Dead Zone and the events of the main timeline.
Although Garlic Jr. is not considered a canonical character, his unexpected return would be a significant plot twist, reminiscent of the Broly film in terms of surprise and impact.
I would've loved it, Z Movie 1 and the anime filler arc have very interesting concepts that I would've liked to see revisited, not only that but Garlic's past with Kami could make Dende have some spotlight.
But fans think Garlic Jr. Is boring, so nah, not happening.
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.
Dragmobot12 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:12 pm
Recall the popular speculation surrounding the Yamoshi teaser, which turned out to be a misdirection, and imagine the excitement that a revived Garlic Jr. could generate among Dragon Ball fans. Possible improved version:
Consider the possibility that Garlic Jr. could return from the Dead Zone and serve as the main antagonist in this story. Time travel and multiverse elements are involved, which may establish a connection between the Dead Zone and the events of the main timeline.
Although Garlic Jr. is not considered a canonical character, his unexpected return would be a significant plot twist, reminiscent of the Broly film in terms of surprise and impact.
This man actually being right, so that means of jr came back then kame must be an important character
Although Garlic Jr. is not considered a canonical character, his unexpected return would be a significant plot twist, reminiscent of the Broly film in terms of surprise and impact
]
But not really because Broly has always been an incredibly popular character. Garlic Jr not so much, especially since he seems more so associated with a not well liked filler arc instead of the much more stellar movie he appeared in.
Grimlock wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:27 pm
Unless we take into consideration the manga sagas (which... Does anyone still do that? We are to get yet another piece of material that will most likely ignore the manga events, so... Does anyone, deep down, really care about the manga sagas?)
Yes, many people do. You've read this thread. You know people care about the manga. Just because you don't care doesn't make our opinions less valid.
Hypocrisy coming from DB fans is super old news
-
I'm seeing reports that while they're making Daima, they want to leave Super 2 on a completely secondary plane until further orders are given, is it true?
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.
Noah wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:05 pmI don't know why people keep repeating this nonsense. Did they forget that the anime came first and was the main product? That the manga initially served only to promote the series? DBS (anime) was never adapted from anything other than the outlines that Toriyama provided to both Toei and Toyotaro. Therefore, they are not obligated to do anything related to Moro, Granola, or anything else. In fact, the only good part about DBD thing is finally ending this discussion: as it is now clear that Toei, Bandai, and Shueisha couldn't care less about this manga, having no mentions of exclusive events that happenned there in any animated media.
I'm not sure why the manga is treated like Toyotaro went rogue and writing whatever he wants. It's still supervised by Toriyama and outselling some manga that have an ongoing anime adaptation. This is an unrelated anime for the 40th anniversery and not evidence that the manga will never be adapted.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:06 pmAs we all know, the idea of Goku being reverted into a child form was one of the key premises in Toriyama’s concept for Dragon Ball GT. Although he had no intention of being hands-on in the production after just completing the manga run, he was the one who fielded the idea of how Goku’s journey might continue after beating Buu.
Did Toriyama come up with the idea of Goku being a kid? I thought Toriyama only drew the initial character drafts after Toei decided with the premise. I think he did give Vegeta a mustache since he said a few years ago that he gave Vegeta one after the manga's ending. He might've forgetten that was for GT or it's how he envisioned Vegeta after EoZ. The idea for this series could end up being another suggestion from the Dragon Room and one Toriyama liked enough to be more involved with.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:06 pmAs we all know, the idea of Goku being reverted into a child form was one of the key premises in Toriyama’s concept for Dragon Ball GT. Although he had no intention of being hands-on in the production after just completing the manga run, he was the one who fielded the idea of how Goku’s journey might continue after beating Buu.
Did Toriyama come up with the idea of Goku being a kid? .
It was Kozo Morishita
Toriyama-sensei christens the series! The origin of “GT”?
Planning for Dragon Ball GT went forward with the next generation of characters, but looking at the series as a whole, it ended up being Son Goku’s story.
When all is said and done, the protagonist of Dragon Ball is Son Goku. Characters such as Piccolo, Vegeta, or Trunks may be popular too, but in the end it’s Goku. As a creator I felt that in my bones, and Dragon Ball GT‘s biggest sticking point, was how to intertwine Goku into the story of Pan and the rest of the next generation of kids. That’s when I thought of turning Goku back into a kid himself. It was also determined that since Dragon Ball Z had taken its hard-edged story developments to their limit, it would be difficult for this original series to do “here comes an even stronger enemy”-type battle stories. There was also a thought that we should return to the initial Dragon Ball TV series. And so it ended up being an adventure story were they travel through outer space.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:06 pm
I’ve been thinking and speculating about the creative process behind this series, and just how long Toriyama may have been cooking it up. It’s very possible that DAIMA represents Toriyama’s true vision for how he wanted Dragon Ball to continue which was never quite realized as he imagined it, until now.
As we all know, the idea of Goku being reverted into a child form was one of the key premises in Toriyama’s concept for Dragon Ball GT. Although he had no intention of being hands-on in the production after just completing the manga run, he was the one who fielded the idea of how Goku’s journey might continue after beating Buu.
As we also all know, Battle of Gods was first conceptualised by Toei’s writers before Toriyama latched onto the project and completely reworked it. Notably, the rewritten script still contains a plot beat of a major character (or three) being magically de-aged by the Dragon Balls, though Toriyama held off on repeating this same beat for Goku — although he is a hermit, I can’t imagine he was unaware of how controversial the decision to de-age him in GT was, and Battle of Gods was meant to be a feel-good movie for the masses in the wake of the tsunami. Nearly everything written after that has been designed to pander to the Z era nostalgia with big fights and transformations. Toriyama outright admitted that he wrote Resurrection ‘F’ specifically to appeal to fans of that stuff.
I don’t want to act like Toriyama is some 5D chess player with a grand plan because we all know he isn’t, but it’s quite possible that his tendency to write Goku (in the rare instances where he directly gets involved) in a more naive, selfish and childish way is a holdover from his original desire to de-age Goku. If he couldn’t regress him physically, he could do it psychologically.
I don’t think Toriyama would ever fully retcon Dragon Ball Super. He likes Beerus too much and he must acknowledge how influential the new stories have been, not just for the franchise but on a global level. But I predict DAIMA is a soft “requel” of sorts, showing how Toriyama would’ve done a Dragon Ball sequel without interference from anyone else. In a sense, DAIMA isn’t subverting expectations because Toriyama has been telegraphing his desire to tell a more low-stakes adventure story about Goku transforming back into a kid since the ‘90s. He just never got around to actually writing it himself. I don’t believe he’s trolling or being spiteful as some are suggesting — he sincerely believes this is where the story needs to go. And if that goes against what some people want or expect, so be it.
Anyway, Shin definitely has a big role to play here. He’s not the kind of crowd-pleasing character to be focused on in trailers unless there’s good reason for it. I was just spitballing about the wish defusing Shin and Kibito but the more I look at it, the more likely it seems.
Wow! You know, that's been my mind of Daima thus far. Maybe this is too far-reaching of a prediction, but I've been wondering... what if Daima is meant to be something of a "VERY soft reboot" of DB's 'Super continuity'? I know, it sounds insane, but given how far Goku and the gang have come, power-wise...
Side note, but as someone who ADORES the Majin Buu arc, can I just say that I'm thrilled that the arc isn't getting JUST a movie to tie into it and its lore, but a whole-ass anime!
Frankly, this all feels a like a "reversal" of how the Majin Buu arc is generally treated by DB in a meta sense. Usually, it'd be Frieza and Cell getting this 'over-the-top' treatment with an anime, while BUU would be the one stuck with a single movie tie-in.
I really hope when Crunchyroll dubs this that they actually cast younger voice actors for the kid characters. I always hated how Sabat voiced Kid Vegeta and Vegeta Jr. I much preferred Kai having Laura Bailey voice Kid Vegeta since she also voiced Kid Trunks.
I'm cringing at the thought of Cynthia Cranz voicing Chi-Chi or Chris Rager voicing Satan and doing cheap kid voice imitations. I know Monica Rial can easily pull off a young kid so she'll probably still be Bulma (she seemed sure about that at the panel), but actors like Sean Schemmel or Mike McFarland, not so much. Also, let's get some new talent and fresh faces in the Dragon Ball VA community. Maybe someone like Jeannie Tirado can voice Chi-Chi since she already voiced Pan in Super and Super Hero. Or Todd Haberkorn as Kid Satan (I know he voices Jaco). Or completely new voice actors!!!
Honestly, if this turns out to be A Pup Named Scooby Doo, but for the Dragon Ball franchise, that can actually be kind of fun. And if it brings in new fans, then it's welcome.
Also, no more excuses, if this isn't a web series and does end up airing on streaming or TV, it NEEDS to be aired on kids networks/channels. The fact that Dragon Ball Super didn't air on Disney XD or Nickelodeon back in 2017 and how Funimation added more cursing to make it seem more adult was ridiculous to me.
Honestly, I think the primary reason why they used babatality on characters is because they want to recast the old voice actors with young ones, but that it feels more natural.
Series will probably start with classic seiyu, and when they are turned into kids, new ones will take over, and from that point on they will remain, even when characters are back to normal.
Similar thing that happened with Mai, Pilaf, and Shu.
Personally, I kind of wished for the new adaptation of manga as a new start, but I guess authors don't want to throw away all that history.
MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:00 amIt was Kozo Morishita
Thanks! I remember reading about it before but couldn't remember where exactly.
dragonballhero wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:04 amWow! You know, that's been my mind of Daima thus far. Maybe this is too far-reaching of a prediction, but I've been wondering... what if Daima is meant to be something of a "VERY soft reboot" of DB's 'Super continuity'? I know, it sounds insane, but given how far Goku and the gang have come, power-wise...
I think it'll be like the Justice League Unlimited episode, Kids Stuff that had some members turned into kids due to magic and go on an adventure to defeat the villain and return to their adult bodies. Well it was only one episode so not a long adventure. It might only be temporary for the 40th anniversery and status quo restored by the end. AnimeAjay implied the anime would return sometime after this series so it might more of a separate thing.
Noah wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:44 pm
Unlike the majority who usually like to disdain anything made by Toei regarding the franchise, I consider these two designs the best for the younger versions of Vegeta and Mutenroshi.
Spoiler:
And no, I don't care if they are or not part of the "canon," what matters to me is that it's ridiculous for Vegeta to be bald since childhood and for Mutenroshi to have always been bald since birth.
Also funny to notice that there were indications since DBS (or BoG) that the series would likely take this direction: Toriyama always liked the Pilaf Gang, so I wouldn't doubt it was his idea to have them having a role in GT, but knowing he couldn't reintroduce them in DBS as senior villains, the tactic was to rejuvenate them. This even served for Mai to form a bizarre romantic pair with Future Trunks. Toriyama also has an aversion not only to aging his characters, but also to going beyond the EoZ. He hinted in past interviews that he wouldn't know if it would be interesting to have a story where a large part of the cast is too old to contribute (which I strongly disagree with).
Analyzing from this perspective and coupled with a tactic to avoid power creep that always haunts the franchise, it makes sense that Toriyama followed this path. I hope he can really show us an interesting story or, if not, that it serves as a way for him to retire and let others have more creative freedom over his own series.
I don't believe we saw Kid Vegeta in the manga at all, while Master Roshi he showed a picture of himself when he used to be young. When he explained how he knew Master Shen.
Bulma assumed Master Roshi was always bald.
Remember this Goku and Vegeta had their tails as a kid, but I don't see any tail on them now in Dragon Ball Saima. They didn't lose their tails until they were adults, which they couldn't grow back.
Now that I think about it, we never saw baby Goten before, this is the first time seeing him. However making him into a baby so he can't do anything, that I am against.
