Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Do my eyes deceive me? It's the start of the skirmish between Goku and Gohan, and people are writing Gohan off compared to Freeza? The guy whom Toriyama said is "actually" strongest and claimed or it is also said? Since all he has to do is get angry and sneeze and he explodes with more power? Who said Gohan was going all out? How do we know he released all of his potential? What if he needs training to access all of it?

Be careful folks, Drgonball precedent is going to come up and bite you.

[QuakingStar]

Do my eyes deceive me? It's the start of the skirmish between Goku and Gohan, and people are writing Gohan off compared to Freeza? The guy whom Toriyama said is "actually" strongest and claimed or it is also said? Since all he has to do is get angry and sneeze and he explodes with more power? Who said Gohan was going all out? How do we know he released all of his potential? What if he needs training to access all of it?

Be careful folks, Drgonball precedent is going to come up and bite you.

Yeah one thing people are missing.. is UI Auto-Dodges, it only blocks when it can't dodge doesn't it? Yet Gohan is casually forcing Goku to block and also seemingly casually blocking UI Goku's Auto-Attacks. His hair is smaller and his pupils are gone.. is this a first stage to Beast?? We don't know.

But yeah the people who kept claiming Gohan Beast was weaker than Moro Arc SSB and current SSB are awfullllllly quiet right now

[Alkiser]

Do my eyes deceive me? It's the start of the skirmish between Goku and Gohan, and people are writing Gohan off compared to Freeza? The guy whom Toriyama said is "actually" strongest and claimed or it is also said? Since all he has to do is get angry and sneeze and he explodes with more power? Who said Gohan was going all out? How do we know he released all of his potential? What if he needs training to access all of it?

Be careful folks, Drgonball precedent is going to come up and bite you.

Yeah one thing people are missing.. is UI Auto-Dodges, it only blocks when it can't dodge doesn't it? Yet Gohan is casually forcing Goku to block and also seemingly casually blocking UI Goku's Auto-Attacks. His hair is smaller and his pupils are gone.. is this a first stage to Beast?? We don't know.

But yeah the people who kept claiming Gohan Beast was weaker than Moro Arc SSB and current SSB are awfullllllly quiet right now

We are in 2024 and people are treating the moving body itself as if it were ultra evasive and not ultra instinct. Ultra instinct is not about automatic dodging only that the body moves itself by which it adapts perfectly to the fight, the opponent and the environment.

[QuakingStar]

Do my eyes deceive me? It's the start of the skirmish between Goku and Gohan, and people are writing Gohan off compared to Freeza? The guy whom Toriyama said is "actually" strongest and claimed or it is also said? Since all he has to do is get angry and sneeze and he explodes with more power? Who said Gohan was going all out? How do we know he released all of his potential? What if he needs training to access all of it?

Be careful folks, Drgonball precedent is going to come up and bite you.

Yeah one thing people are missing.. is UI Auto-Dodges, it only blocks when it can't dodge doesn't it? Yet Gohan is casually forcing Goku to block and also seemingly casually blocking UI Goku's Auto-Attacks. His hair is smaller and his pupils are gone.. is this a first stage to Beast?? We don't know.

But yeah the people who kept claiming Gohan Beast was weaker than Moro Arc SSB and current SSB are awfullllllly quiet right now

We are in 2024 and people are treating the moving body itself as if it were ultra evasive and not ultra instinct. Ultra instinct is not about automatic dodging only that the body moves itself by which it adapts perfectly to the fight, the opponent and the environment.

They stressed that Ultra Instinct attacks and dodges by INSTINCT in which there are levels of accuracy that each user can reach with the Grand Priest having the highest level of it and Whis having a far higher level of it compared to Goku. We've seen it since it was introduced, and Goku's only ever blocked when he couldn't dodge or the ONE moment where he let Moro break his hand on his chest. It's 2024 and you somehow forgot that.

[Hugo Boss]

But yeah the people who kept claiming Gohan Beast was weaker than Moro Arc SSB and current SSB are awfullllllly quiet right now

This was a thing?

From what I’ve seen the most common assumption around here is that Gohan was relative to SSB in Ultimate and to Ultra Instinct in Beast.

[Lukmendes]

But yeah the people who kept claiming Gohan Beast was weaker than Moro Arc SSB and current SSB are awfullllllly quiet right now

That happened? Lol

Why would anyone think that? Piccolo claims the Gammas are around Goku's and Vegeta's level, and later Gohan says Goku and Vegeta might not have been able to defeat Cell Max, this puts Gohan Beast at the very least around the same level as them (Since you can argue he's just making a guess), and at most completely outclassing them.

[ZombieVito]

But yeah the people who kept claiming Gohan Beast was weaker than Moro Arc SSB and current SSB are awfullllllly quiet right now

This was a thing?

From what I’ve seen the most common assumption around here is that Gohan was relative to SSB in Ultimate and to Ultra Instinct in Beast.

I have only seen Orange Piccolo be said to be SSB level by multiple people on Reddit.

No, I'm not making it up lol. I wish I was.

[Block88]

But yeah the people who kept claiming Gohan Beast was weaker than Moro Arc SSB and current SSB are awfullllllly quiet right now

This was a thing?

From what I’ve seen the most common assumption around here is that Gohan was relative to SSB in Ultimate and to Ultra Instinct in Beast.

I have only seen Orange Piccolo be said to be SSB level by multiple people on Reddit.

No, I'm not making it up lol. I wish I was.

I could understand folks thinking orange Piccolo being ssjb tier but given he put up a decent fight against Cell Max,states by AT to be on par with Goku and Co and have been training with Gohan lately it wouldn't surprise me if he's UI tier

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the best part is that Gohan Beast being up to snuff with Ultra Instinct also means that his Ultimate form has to be in the ballpark of one of Goku's lower forms, lending credence to the Gammas being as strong as Goku and Vegeta in SSB; this also naturally applies to Piccolo himself, with his Ultimate form being around SSB (while he was getting beaten, he was strong enough to fight Gamma 2 in even exchanges) and Orange Piccolo being somewhere around those upper forms.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah on tiktok and instragam they were saying Orange and Beast are Blue to Blue KK level at best, and both Ultimate Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan are not even SSGod level. They have literally no factual evidence to back any of it up and are just simply Gohan and Piccolo haters. I was sooo enjoying watching them seethe when I went back and lurked yesterday lol

[dragonball0900]

I do have to say that I did see plenty of people who were angry at the leaks showing Beast Gohan on par with UI Goku. On Twitter (mostly the spanish speakers, I know since I am spanish speaker myself), most of them complained at how illogical it was for a random power up like Beast being able to reach the same tier as UI and UE which were forms that Goku and Vegeta had to train all the time to obtain them. They don't like how Goku and Vegeta who got divine training for years were now caught up by a random power up from Gohan. And most are begging for UI Goku to one shot Beast Gohan next chapter since they assume Goku is not going all out in this chapter yet.

Most of them even place Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo and the Gammas as being between SSJ3 and SSG level rather than SSB level, and I did see a few people begrudgingly accept that Orange Piccolo got close to even SSB level (most seemed to accept him as being on par with SSB, but not more than that because they think that would be insane and illogical).

But with Beast Gohan, they usually had the idea that he reached at most at UI Sign level from the ToP but not more than that. At least until this recent chapter came around and debunked it. Some even thought he was just SSBKK level. But look at how wrong those people turned out to be. Now they are saying that the series is ruined, common sense is ruined, etc.

I do have to say, I always thought Beast Gohan being this strong was a possibility. I mean, this series is full of random power ups after all. It's nothing new. I do really like that Gohan has finally caught up with Goku and Vegeta once again.

[ZombieVito]

I do have to say that I did see plenty of people who were angry at the leaks showing Beast Gohan on par with UI Goku. On Twitter (mostly the spanish speakers, I know since I am spanish speaker myself), most of them complained at how illogical it was for a random power up like Beast being able to reach the same tier as UI and UE which were forms that Goku and Vegeta had to train all the time to obtain them. They don't like how Goku and Vegeta who got divine training for years were now caught up by a random power up from Gohan. And most are begging for UI Goku to one shot Beast Gohan next chapter since they assume Goku is not going all out in this chapter yet.

Most of them even place Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo and the Gammas as being between SSJ3 and SSG level rather than SSB level, and I did see a few people begrudgingly accept that Orange Piccolo got close to even SSB level (most seemed to accept him as being on par with SSB, but not more than that because they think that would be insane and illogical).

But with Beast Gohan, they usually had the idea that he reached at most at UI Sign level from the ToP but not more than that. At least until this recent chapter came around and debunked it. Some even thought he was just SSBKK level. But look at how wrong those people turned out to be. Now they are saying that the series is ruined, common sense is ruined, etc.

I do have to say, I always thought Beast Gohan being this strong was a possibility. I mean, this series is full of random power ups after all. It's nothing new. I do really like that Gohan has finally caught up with Goku and Vegeta once again.

SS3 tier lmao. Reminds me of the ridiculousness of some people when putting 17 there just because he fought SS3 Goku even though we have verbal confirmation that he was SSB tier by the end of the ToP by no other than Goku himself.

[Magnificent Ponta]

We've seen it since it was introduced, and Goku's only ever blocked when he couldn't dodge or the ONE moment where he let Moro break his hand on his chest.

This isn't accurate.

In Chapter 64 alone (arguably his most dominant display to date using Completed Ultra Instinct), Goku interchangeably dodges, blocks (one-handed, without even looking), or counterattacks Moro (to pre-empt his attacks and thus stop them), throughout. This does not appear to demonstrate some clearly-delineated hierarchy of response on the part of Ultra Instinct, like you seem to be implying.

[QuakingStar]

We've seen it since it was introduced, and Goku's only ever blocked when he couldn't dodge or the ONE moment where he let Moro break his hand on his chest.

This isn't accurate.

In Chapter 64 alone (arguably his most dominant display to date using Completed Ultra Instinct), Goku interchangeably dodges, blocks (one-handed, without even looking), or counterattacks Moro (to pre-empt his attacks and thus stop them), throughout. This does not appear to demonstrate some clearly-delineated hierarchy of response on the part of Ultra Instinct, like you seem to be implying.

Yet outside of blocking and being blocked he has not succeeded to do any of those against Beast Gohan. The accuracy of UI was brought up against Granolah, with it being why despite Goku using UI eventually Granolah was able to touch him(because his auto-dodge and auto-block as well as auto-attack failed at that point).

Regardless, Orange Piccolo was nowhere near FP when he fought Cell Max and didn't even take a Senzu Bean yet he was able to go toe to toe with him. OP is said by Toriyama to be on par with Goku and I assume this means a FP Orange Piccolo. So even Orange Piccolo is still in the same general range of power as UI Goku.

I thoroughly enjoy how salty they are about all of this.

[Magnificent Ponta]

We've seen it since it was introduced, and Goku's only ever blocked when he couldn't dodge or the ONE moment where he let Moro break his hand on his chest.

This isn't accurate.

In Chapter 64 alone (arguably his most dominant display to date using Completed Ultra Instinct), Goku interchangeably dodges, blocks (one-handed, without even looking), or counterattacks Moro (to pre-empt his attacks and thus stop them), throughout. This does not appear to demonstrate some clearly-delineated hierarchy of response on the part of Ultra Instinct, like you seem to be implying.

Yet outside of blocking and being blocked he has not succeeded to do any of those against Beast Gohan. The accuracy of UI was brought up against Granolah, with it being why despite Goku using UI eventually Granolah was able to touch him(because his auto-dodge and auto-block as well as auto-attack failed at that point).

I haven't mentioned either Granolah or Gohan, and I have no 'dog' in the 'fight' of where Gohan sits in relative power terms; I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that Gohan might be the strongest hero around right now (frankly, I thought it was a given). My issue is rather simpler:

You said quite clearly further up the thread that Ultra Instinct is simply an auto-dodge that only does different if it's forced to do otherwise:

Yeah one thing people are missing.. is UI Auto-Dodges, it only blocks when it can't dodge doesn't it? Yet Gohan is casually forcing Goku to block

...and when another user gainsaid that assertion, you said what I quoted first of all. Which, judging from what Goku has done even against foes he's easily superior to, is demonstrably inaccurate.

[Mr Baggins]

I was sooo enjoying watching them seethe when I went back and lurked yesterday lol

This reaction (theirs and yours) is bizarre. We're talking about power levels from a Japanese children's comic made up by an old guy that doesn't really care that much about power levels. It ain't that serious.

I've been saying that Piccolo and Gohan were meant to be compared to the Ultra forms rather than Blue even before the movie was adapted into the manga, mainly because it's doubtful that Toriyama would want to split all this stuff into separate contunuities in his mind, and I expected some contention from that. Lurking on other websites or insulting people because they had a different perspective is just plain silly, though.

[QuakingStar]

This isn't accurate.

In Chapter 64 alone (arguably his most dominant display to date using Completed Ultra Instinct), Goku interchangeably dodges, blocks (one-handed, without even looking), or counterattacks Moro (to pre-empt his attacks and thus stop them), throughout. This does not appear to demonstrate some clearly-delineated hierarchy of response on the part of Ultra Instinct, like you seem to be implying.

Yet outside of blocking and being blocked he has not succeeded to do any of those against Beast Gohan. The accuracy of UI was brought up against Granolah, with it being why despite Goku using UI eventually Granolah was able to touch him(because his auto-dodge and auto-block as well as auto-attack failed at that point).

I haven't mentioned either Granolah or Gohan, and I have no 'dog' in the 'fight' of where Gohan sits in relative power terms; I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that Gohan might be the strongest hero around right now (frankly, I thought it was a given). My issue is rather simpler:

You said quite clearly further up the thread that Ultra Instinct is simply an auto-dodge that only does different if it's forced to do otherwise:

Yeah one thing people are missing.. is UI Auto-Dodges, it only blocks when it can't dodge doesn't it? Yet Gohan is casually forcing Goku to block

...and when another user gainsaid that assertion, you said what I quoted first of all. Which, judging from what Goku has done even against foes he's easily superior to, is demonstrably inaccurate.

Whis when referring to Autonomous Ultra Instinct - "The ultimate technique, which severs the link between consciousness and body, Allowing one to dodge any attack subconsciously; Ultra Instinct." It dodges first and foremost and clearly has only NOT dodged when it couldn't do so which usually is because Goku either being simply unable to because the opponents speed and accuracy of their attack was too great therefor Goku blocks instead.. OR because UI's accuracy has dropped too much. He JUST turned into UI which Beerus and Whis confirm is his currently strongest usage of it. So if it dodges by instict, it should otherwise only block what it cannot dodge.

@bagg No, what's bizarre is you commenting at me claiming my reaction is bizarre. What's plain silly is you, a stranger on the internet thinking I give shit about your opinion on my enjoying them seething, little bud. That's very weird, but here you are.

[Mr Baggins]

@bagg kid No, what's bizarre is you commenting at me claiming my reaction is bizarre. What's plain silly is you, a stranger on the internet thinking I give single shit about your opinion on my enjoying them seething, little bud. That's very weird, but here you are.

Ironic, considering you sure seem to give a shit about the opinions of those other strangers on the internet you keep talking about.

You should probably relax.

[QuakingStar]

@bagg kid No, what's bizarre is you commenting at me claiming my reaction is bizarre. What's plain silly is you, a stranger on the internet thinking I give single shit about your opinion on my enjoying them seething, little bud. That's very weird, but here you are.

Ironic, considering you sure seem to give a shit about the opinions of those other strangers on the internet you keep talking about.

You should probably relax.

Or, you could just have not commented some stupid shit because somehow my comment bothered you. Don't be weird.

[Magnificent Ponta]

It dodges first and foremost and clearly has only NOT dodged when it couldn't do so which usually is because Goku either being simply unable to because the opponents speed and accuracy of their attack was too great therefor Goku blocks instead.. OR because UI's accuracy has dropped too much. He JUST turned into UI which Beerus and Whis confirm is his currently strongest usage of it. So if it dodges by instict, it should otherwise only block what it cannot dodge.

This does not at all explain why Goku blocks Moro's attacks in Chapter 64, a mere handful of pages after initially Completing Ultra Instinct and while still in the midst of showing everyone that he's hugely superior to Moro. Please address this point. By continuing to maintain that Ultra Instinct only blocks instead of dodging if it is 'forced' to, you're repeatedly asserting something that is directly contradicted by what is actually shown in the manga, and I'm not sure why you feel the need to do this.