Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1770 ... _&ref_url=

For the battle of UI Goku vs Beast Gohan, besides the obvious point of “who’s stronger?”, Toyotaro hopes readers will pay attention to the characters’ different attitudes and ways of thinking about fighting.

[theherodjl]

After reading it again, it looks like Gohan has three 'levels' to his Beast form; Base Beast(he simply activates the form and fights like normal), Controlled Beast(he powers up as much as he can without losing himself), and Rage Beast(he goes all out in fury). With that in mind and If I had to rank the Saiyans now, I'd put it down like this.

1. Rage Beast Gohan
2. True UI Goku/UE Vegeta/Full Power SSJ Broly
3. Controlled Beast Gohan/Perfected UI Goku
4. Base Beast Gohan/SSJ Broly
5. UI Sign Goku/SSJBE Vegeta
6. Ultimate Gohan

Given how True UI Goku & UE Vegeta got simultaneously one-shot by Black Freeza, I'd say Freeza is still firmly the strongest mortal in U7. However, if Gohan keeps up with his training while Freeza sits on his tail the whole time, Rage Beast Gohan ought to be able to fight on par with Black Freeza or even surpass him. We're just going to have to see if Freeza is that lazily-overconfident in his power, or if he does notice what's going on and decides to sneak back into his ROSAT for another day or two.

[ZombieVito]

After reading it again, it looks like Gohan has three 'levels' to his Beast form; Base Beast(he simply activates the form and fights like normal), Controlled Beast(he powers up as much as he can without losing himself), and Rage Beast(he goes all out in fury). With that in mind and If I had to rank the Saiyans now, I'd put it down like this.

1. Rage Beast Gohan
2. True UI Goku/UE Vegeta/Full Power SSJ Broly
3. Controlled Beast Gohan/Perfected UI Goku
4. Base Beast Gohan/SSJ Broly
5. UI Sign Goku/SSJBE Vegeta
6. Ultimate Gohan

Given how True UI Goku & UE Vegeta got simultaneously one-shot by Black Freeza, I'd say Freeza is still firmly the strongest mortal in U7. However, if Gohan keeps up with his training while Freeza sits on his tail the whole time, Rage Beast Gohan ought to be able to fight on par with Black Freeza or even surpass him. We're just going to have to see if Freeza is that lazily-overconfident in his power, or if he does notice what's going on and decides to sneak back into his ROSAT for another day or two.

True UI is not Goku's strongest.

[QuakingStar]

Not only that, Broly was using his "FPSS" but he controlled it. Goku even thought he went Berserk.

Gohan also cannot control Beast's full power yet, he goes Berserk when he tries to use its true full power and we don't even know exactly how much stronger that is so having it on a list is just guessing.

[Hugo Boss]

Based purely on what chapter #103 conveys, Goku and Gohan are pretty much rivals when they fight at full strength, being advertised as the strongest vs. strongest, so it’s not really surprising their match ended undecided.

Having said that, Gohan fought Broly and Vegeta after consuming some stamina, so Broly comes on third, and we don’t have any means to tell how strong Vegeta has become at full strength, since he only shows his Super Saiyan Blue form.

Anyway, so far Black Freeza’s position didn’t shift, despite the praises Gohan’s power received in this chapter, so I won’t say he has been surpassed yet. I will just assume the gap has got somewhat smaller, as Beerus reacts very attentively to Gohan’s presence in the fights.

So, my pecking order for now would be Beerus > Freeza > Goku = Gohan > Broly > Vegeta > Piccolo

[theherodjl]

True UI is not Goku's strongest.

I'm pretty sure it is, though, in the category of "strength" as opposed to "technique". Goku even says that he wasn't fighting to actually beat Gohan, just to test out Gohan's power. Such a statement could mean that Goku had something in reserve, and since his True UI form was able to match someone who his Perfected UI form was not able to overcome, I think it's a good indication that True UI is not yet obsolete.

Not only that, Broly was using his "FPSS" but he controlled it. Goku even thought he went Berserk.

Was he? He just appeared to be SSJ and wasn't raging out, something akin to Gohan's Controlled Beast state at best.

[QuakingStar]

True UI is not Goku's strongest.

I'm pretty sure it is, though, in the category of "strength" as opposed to "technique". Goku even says that he wasn't fighting to actually beat Gohan, just to test out Gohan's power. Such a statement could mean that Goku had something in reserve, and since his True UI form was able to match someone who his Perfected UI form was not able to overcome, I think it's a good indication that True UI is not yet obsolete.

Not only that, Broly was using his "FPSS" but he controlled it. Goku even thought he went Berserk.

Was he? He just appeared to be SSJ and wasn't raging out, something akin to Gohan's Controlled Beast state at best.

True UI is still a technique the same way UI is a technique. Goku and Whis referred to the Silver Haired UI as his best technique so I severely doubt True UI is needed anymore. Gohan was able to tap into a higher level of Beasts power but stopped before going Berserk, the power that he did use put his speed high enough that Goku's UI could not react to nor make him dodge it. Gohan then seemingly drops in power so I assume until he masters Beast he cannot use the higher levels of its power, let alone the true maximum it has since he will go Berserk in trying to do so. So in terms of power Gohan is above Goku even if it isn't all that much.

Broly in the manga panels we see of him as a Berserk don't look much different than what we see in this chapter, he is still buff and larger in the chapter when using his unique SS and his eyes are not blank, and not to mentione they never once referred to Brolys form as anything other than Super Saiyan in the manga to begin with and why? Because that's all it is. A unique variant of Super Saiyan that Kale and Broly as mutant Saiyans have access to.

Going by power alone Gohan is still above them other not including Beerus and Black Frrieza since we don't know how they currently would fare against Frieza. Including experience and UI's ability Goku has less power but evens it out. Vegeta with UE should be comparable in power to UI Goku but of course he has no auto ability like UI does. SS Broly MIGHT have the power advantage on Goku and Vegeta but seeing as how a Gohan who just spent a lot of energy was swinging him around and easily fighting him I think it's safe to say Broly is below the three right now. Orange Piccolo was low on energy and didn't take a Senzu yet he was able to fight Cell Max still and he and Gohan trained following the battle with Cell Max so I don't doubt Piccolo is up there with the 4 of them now generally.

[theherodjl]

True UI is still a technique the same way UI is a technique. Goku and Whis referred to the Silver Haired UI as his best technique so I severely doubt True UI is needed anymore. Gohan was able to tap into a higher level of Beasts power but stopped before going Berserk, the power that he did use put his speed high enough that Goku's UI could not react to nor make him dodge it. Gohan then seemingly drops in power so I assume until he masters Beast he cannot use the higher levels of its power, let alone the true maximum it has since he will go Berserk in trying to do so. So in terms of power Gohan is above Goku even if it isn't all that much.

They didn't actually say it was the best technique in terms of strength though. True UI not only allowed Goku to turn the tables on Gas where Perfected UI got overwhelmed in strength & speed, but Goku even managed to land several hits on and tank several hits from an even stronger Gas afterwards. Goku doesn't seem to have overcome the inadequacy of Perfected UI losing to simple greater strength, so I doubt True UI is gone when it still has a superior edge on competing with stronger opponents.

Broly in the manga panels we see of him as a Berserk don't look much different than what we see in this chapter, he is still buff and larger in the chapter when using his unique SS and his eyes are not blank, and not to mentione they never once referred to Brolys form as anything other than Super Saiyan in the manga to begin with and why? Because that's all it is. A unique variant of Super Saiyan that Kale and Broly as mutant Saiyans have access to.

From what I read, Broly took note on the lesson that Gohan demonstrated with Beast, and tried to tame his SSJ in a similar way. However, Beerus noted that Gohan was still better at it so Broly shouldn't yet be at his best with his SSJ, he's just improved. At best, I'd say Broly is most of the way towards his Full Power SSJ state, he just needs to work on it like Gohan does with Beast.

[Jack Bz]

They didn't actually say it was the best technique in terms of strength though. True UI not only allowed Goku to turn the tables on Gas where Perfected UI got overwhelmed in strength & speed, but Goku even managed to land several hits on and tank several hits from an even stronger Gas afterwards. Goku doesn't seem to have overcome the inadequacy of Perfected UI losing to simple greater strength, so I doubt True UI is gone when it still has a superior edge on competing with stronger opponents.

True UI was Goku's solution to a temporary problem. He wasn't managing to use perfected ultra instinct correctly because he was having trouble keeping his heart calm, so resorted to something else. And even in the same fight, Goku's best effort against Gas was him temporarily tapping into perfected ultra instinct again while practically unconscious to use the giant avatar move which Gas could do nothing against. So in that sense, his perfected ultra instinct was able to completely overpower someone true UI was losing to.

I admit it was somewhat ambiguous what exactly went down in that arc, but it's pretty clear with chapter 102 now, where after Goku transforms into perfected ultra instinct, Beerus and Whis clarify that it's his best "trick" as of now.

[theherodjl]

True UI was Goku's solution to a temporary problem. He wasn't managing to use perfected ultra instinct correctly because he was having trouble keeping his heart calm, so resorted to something else. And even in the same fight, Goku's best effort against Gas was him temporarily tapping into perfected ultra instinct again while practically unconscious to use the giant avatar move which Gas could do nothing against. So in that sense, his perfected ultra instinct was able to completely overpower someone true UI was losing to.

I admit it was somewhat ambiguous what exactly went down in that arc, but it's pretty clear with chapter 102 now, where after Goku transforms into perfected ultra instinct, Beerus and Whis clarify that it's his best "trick" as of now.

I'd say that more of surprising a foe with the God Ki technique that Goku developed with Perfected UI rather than being a true improvement with power. After Gas survived the big blast from Granolah, Goku switched back to using True UI to fight him again and to brace himself from Black Freeza's attack. If he had surpassed True UI at any level of power with his God Ki technique, why not use it again? That implies to me that Gas might have been able to break out of it had he not been surprised and had some more time. Certain techniques like that are hard to gauge, as Tenshinhan was able to blast Cell down despite being significantly weaker.

I'd agree that Perfected UI is Goku's best "trick" as well, as it's not him fighting by strength but by pure skill. You can't really get a much better trick than that.

[Miracles]

The point is, Goku and Gohan were the stars of the show. Heck you even have one translation stating it was "strongest vs strongest." Broly's SSJ couldn't even best Gohan when Gohan was not even at full power ["some gas left in the tank"]. Yet Broly got tossed by Gohan.

This is Goku and Vegeta's show. Gohan would be better than both if he stayed in shape. Broly is just side salad. He will be hype food for the next big bad anyway. With Goku and Vegeta being the ones to compete or clean them up. The main characters are the only ones prophesied to rival Beerus.

The point is this "spar" changed nothing of DBS's entire context. Beerus is still the man to beat. BTW, fun fact: Broly was never on Beerus's level.

[QuakingStar]

The point is, Goku and Gohan were the stars of the show. Heck you even have one translation stating it was "strongest vs strongest." Broly's SSJ couldn't even best Gohan when Gohan was not even at full power ["some gas left in the tank"]. Yet Broly got tossed by Gohan.

This is Goku and Vegeta's show. Gohan would be better than both if he stayed in shape. Broly is just side salad. He will be hype food for the next big bad anyway. With Goku and Vegeta being the ones to compete or clean them up. The main characters are the only ones prophesied to rival Beerus.

The point is this "spar" changed nothing of DBS's entire context. Beerus is still the man to beat. BTW, fun fact: Broly was never on Beerus's level.

Gohan can't actually use his full power, he goes berserk if he does but yeah in power Gohan is at the top between the 4 while Broly is clearly at the bottom. Goku's UI auto ability and experience help him rival Gohan though. Beerus is definitely above Broly and the rest including Black Frieza still.

[Mr Baggins]

Seeing some badly misguided takes in this thread.

This chapter specifically makes it a point that Broly has to access/control his power the same way that Gohan does; it's why he benefits from observing Gohan in the first place. So if there's some hidden "berserk" level of power for Gohan, the same idea obviously applies to Broly. They're both rage type fighters.

Also, when Gohan is tossing Broly around, Beerus attributes this to Gohan having more control of his power – not that he has more raw power per se. Doesn't that still put Gohan above Broly? Sure, but the implication is that Broly still has room to grow. Gohan was amazed by Broly's brute strength either way ("Such pure power!"), a reaction he didn't give to Goku.

But again, the overarching thrust is that even with Gohan at the top, they're all in the same league now. This is way higher than what Goku and Vegeta were capable of in the previous arc. The chapter leaves the exact pecking order ambiguous, and purposely so.

[SupremeKai25]

I think it will be very interesting to see how Goku will dethrone everyone else.

As we know, Goku by the 28th Tournament will be the Most Powerful, the "Number 1", in the Universe.

Not Gohan, Not Broly, Not Vegeta, Goku. The strongest and highest potential Saiyan ever. He is the one destined to surpass everyone else.

Dragon Ball is Goku's story. Goku will always surpass everyone else. Don't forget that.

I cannot wait to see how Goku will dethrone everyone else and secure his place, once and for all, as the top dog. Oh, I can hardly wait for Broly and Gohan to be dethroned, in fact.

[TobyS]

I think it will be very interesting to see how Goku will dethrone everyone else.

As we know, Goku by the 28th Tournament will be the Most Powerful, the "Number 1", in the Universe.

Not Gohan, Not Broly, Not Vegeta, Goku. The strongest and highest potential Saiyan ever. He is the one destined to surpass everyone else.

Dragon Ball is Goku's story. Goku will always surpass everyone else. Don't forget that.

I cannot wait to see how Goku will dethrone everyone else and secure his place, once and for all, as the top dog. Oh, I can hardly wait for Broly and Gohan to be dethroned, in fact.

We don't know that. It's never said he's the strongest only that he's been bored.

In the og manga it's because a kid boo powered good guy is equal to him and can give him a fair fight. Gohan would stomp him and he'd stomp ss2 vegeta.

Now he wants good fights but also cares about the world being in safe hands too.

[SupremeKai25]

I think it will be very interesting to see how Goku will dethrone everyone else.

As we know, Goku by the 28th Tournament will be the Most Powerful, the "Number 1", in the Universe.

Not Gohan, Not Broly, Not Vegeta, Goku. The strongest and highest potential Saiyan ever. He is the one destined to surpass everyone else.

Dragon Ball is Goku's story. Goku will always surpass everyone else. Don't forget that.

I cannot wait to see how Goku will dethrone everyone else and secure his place, once and for all, as the top dog. Oh, I can hardly wait for Broly and Gohan to be dethroned, in fact.

We don't know that. It's never said he's the strongest only that he's been bored.

In the og manga it's because a kid boo powered good guy is equal to him and can give him a fair fight. Gohan would stomp him and he'd stomp ss2 vegeta.

Now he wants good fights but also cares about the world being in safe hands too.

Wrong, Toriyama himself stated that Goku is "always the pure strongest in the Universe".

Out of all your characters, which one is the most (blank)?
Cool: Goku
“I think it’s Goku.” The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... yama-best/


He may stumble for a time against the likes of Gohan and Broly, but in the end he will always be the pure strongest in the Universe. He will always be #1.

Dragon Ball is Goku's story, not Gohan's or Broly. Gohan or Broly are not the MC of Dragon Ball, Goku is.

It is logical that Super will end the same way DBZ did, with Goku as the top dog.

The only one who will pose a challenge to Goku in the end will be Uub, the boy who inherited the Dai Kaioshin power.

So we just established that Goku will eventually put Gohan and Broly in the dust, so I can't wait to see how the story will get to that confirmed end-point.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama’s comment is only concerned about who is the character he finds the most cool. The “strongest” part of the line is a editor’s note with inner thoughts about Toriyama’s answer to the question. He does that in other instances, like with Kame Sen’nin.

[Yuji]

In the manga, Black's Rosé seems to function as the equivalent of Blue, but in the anime, it seems like it's just his equivalent of Super Saiyan. You could have argued this already because his base form was already strong enough to contend with SS2 Goku and later even SSB Vegeta, but in Heroes we see him ascend into SSR2 and SSR3, which all but confirms it considering Goku and Vegeta are unable to do the same with Blue and Vegeta tapped into a different evolution method.

So if Black actually ascended past SSR in the regular anime, how strong would he be assuming 2 and 3 still follow the standard SSx2 and SS2x4 multipliers? This would likely still place him below Kaioken x10 SSB Goku, right?

[SupremeKai25]

In the manga, Black's Rosé seems to function as the equivalent of Blue, but in the anime, it seems like it's just his equivalent of Super Saiyan. You could have argued this already because his base form was already strong enough to contend with SS2 Goku and later even SSB Vegeta, but in Heroes we see him ascend into SSR2 and SSR3, which all but confirms it considering Goku and Vegeta are unable to do the same with Blue and Vegeta tapped into a different evolution method.

So if Black actually ascended past SSR in the regular anime, how strong would he be assuming 2 and 3 still follow the standard SSx2 and SS2x4 multipliers? This would likely still place him below Kaioken x10 SSB Goku, right?

Can't we simply look at the Heroes Anime to find the answer, considering how it is written by Toei and follows the Toei continuity (see Fused Zamasu clearly being the Anime version who had the purple damaged side)?

If we look at Heroes, we can see that a SSR2 and SSR3 Black is able to pose a challenge to Ultra Instinct Goku. The peak evolution of Black has developed a form of pseudo-regeneration and can only be defeated by Gogeta Blue.

This is in line with the Future Trunks saga, where SSR1 Black could pose a challenge to Goku's peak form at the time (SSB), but he would have easily been defeated by Vegito Blue.

So, according to Toei, Black with his Rosé form is always capable of challenging the Strongest form of Goku at any time, but falls short of a Blue fusion.

I have no doubt that this is how powerful Black would be if Toei brought him back for a "Resurrection of Z" movie.

If Toei actually makes a movie where Black returns, I have no doubt that they will "upscale" him to pose a major threat to UI Goku and Beast Gohan, but he will likely be taken out by a Blue Fusion.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Read the translation recently.

When it comes to Broly, and Gohans utter shock at just his pure physical strength, pretty much confirms to me at least that Broly has raw power above UI Goku. Potentially Gohan too, but gohan is just overall better than broly.




But I've also come to doubt how i viewed Broly at his max in the broly arc. If whis is correct in that broly has had "some growth" until now, then how strong was Broly in the manga at his peak against SSB Gogeta? I had him at the bottom of the barrel of Hakaishin strength, on par with UI Goku and Jiren from the T.o.P. but this seems go imply him to have had been much stronger.