The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Yuji]

Who's the strongest character the 10 billion Meta Coolas could defeat? Fight takes place on an indestructible planet.

[Almighty Majin]

Who's the strongest character the 10 billion Meta Coolas could defeat? Fight takes place on an indestructible planet.

Let us figure out how strong 1 Meta-Cooler is:

Goku and Vegeta in this movie are supposed to be from early Android arc, so before the Time Chamber training. Both of them have to use their full power in SSJ to barely defeat 1 Meta-Cooler. In this movie, Dende is god of Earth which signifies that Kami has been assimilated into Piccolo already. Meta-Cooler should be stronger than this Piccolo as well. This means that 1 Meta-Cooler is somewhere between Android 17 and Android 16 in terms of power.

We are looking at 10 billion fighters on the level of Android 17 or above. Factoring in their regeneration and adaptation ability, they are both extremely resilient and can improve during battle if not defeated in time. With that in mind, I will say that the strongest opponent they will be able to defeat should be someone who cannot casually destroy an army of android-level fighters and lacks the stamina to last that much.

Honestly... I want to say that SSJ3 Buu arc Goku will likely fail to defeat all 10 billion of them in time considering his stamina and the rest will eventually adapt and overcome him. I could potentially see them outlasting Gotenks until he defuses as well. Ultimate Gohan might also be arrogant enough that the Meta-Coolers adapt to him and take him down.

That would be my take. I cannot see the Meta-Cooler army taking down someone like Majin Buu or anyone in the god tier ranges.

[Hugo Boss]

Since Goku and Vegeta had to go all out in Super Saiyan just to barely defeat a single Meta Coola, that suggests each one is at least on par with mid-Android arc SS1 levels. Given that there are 10 billion of them, they could likely overwhelm almost anyone through sheer numbers, even if their individual power isn’t overwhelming.

The strongest character they could defeat depends on stamina and endurance. Someone like Perfect Cell might be able to take out a huge number of them before tiring out, but he’d eventually be overwhelmed. Even SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games might not have the stamina to fight that many. A character with massive AoE attacks and near-limitless stamina, like Majin Boo with regeneration, would probably be needed to counter them effectively.

[dragon boss z]

What proof is there Piccolo got significantly stronger than his encounter vs #17? Cell only mentions Vegeta and Trunks holding their own against the Cell Jrs. They seem to be in regular Super Saiyan in the manga too, not even Grade 2. Sure, he went into the ROSAT, but we don't see anything impressive from him. Years later in RF he's struggling against an opponent a rusty SS Gohan one shots -- he's still far below CG Super Saiyans at least until Superhero.

Ironically I think the best scaling we have for Piccolo is him being stronger than the kids (per Boo's absorption), who scale to the adults somewhat relatively. The kids can one shot 18, and therefore 17, which means so can Piccolo, but then again so could Super Vegeta.

Piccolo was the only one standing along with Vegeta and Trunks against the Cell jrs. Even tired Goku was down meaning Piccolo>tired Goku. Now how much weaker do you think Goku actually got just from being tired? In the saiyan saga Vegeta was beaten to hell and back but even at the end (before being crushed by Gohan) he didn't even get 10x weaker and was still above Krillin.

Vegeta and Trunks weren't in grade 2 but that's because they realized it wasn't the optimal transformation. Their ssj forms during the Cell games were stronger than Super Vegeta, likely by a considerable margin considering how confident Vegeta was.

[dragon boss z]

Piccolo’s strength is a bit too ambiguous and probably the most difficult to scale in the series.

While he definitely improved after training in the time chamber, there’s little concrete evidence suggesting he surpassed Super Vegeta. Cell specifically notes that only Vegeta and Trunks were holding their own against the Cell Jrs., implying Piccolo wasn’t on their level. Also, while he trained for seven years before the Buu saga, we don’t see any feats suggesting a massive jump in power.

Given that Android 16 was much stronger than Android 17, who was equally matched with Piccolo, and Super Vegeta and Semi Perfect Cell were significantly stronger than 16, it’s reasonable to place Super Vegeta above Piccolo unless there’s something more concrete proving otherwise.

Resurrection F is tricky because Piccolo struggling against an enemy on Zarbon and Dodoria’s level seems hard to justify, especially given his general portrayal in the original manga. If we go by RF and the Frost fight, it looks like Toriyama sees Piccolo as weaker than Namek Freeza, which fits how often he’s treated as an equal to base Gohan and Goku in other parts of Super.

-It's implied Piccolo>Goten and Trunks, so it depends if you think their sparring matches against Gohan and Vegeta prove they should be above Super Vegeta. Piccolo wasn't on Cell games Vegeta and Trunks' level but he was still good enough to be standing against the Cell jrs while tired ssj Goku was down. He was weaker but probably not by a massive degree. Then he had 7 years of training after that. It's hard to believe he wouldn't at bare minimum be close to Cell games Vegeta and Trunks by that point.

-Piccolo definitely could theoretically be below Super Vegeta, but for the reasons above I find that unlikely, unless you think Cell games Vegeta and the Cell jrs aren't that much above Super Vegeta.

-It does seem like Toriyama completely forgot how strong Piccolo was by RoF. Though I don't know if we should assume Toriyama thought Frost was only equal to namek saga Frieza in power. In the tournament of power Frost didn't seem that far behind post training Frieza.

[Hugo Boss]

I see where you’re coming from, but I think the Boo arc suggests Goten and Trunks (in SS1) were not too far behind Gohan’s SS1 power. If Piccolo is comparable to base Gohan, then the kids would likely be superior to him, especially given that they were able to briefly tangle with Cell Jrs. in the Super manga.

As for Frost, I think it’s worth considering Goku’s comment that if Frost trained like Freeza did, they could have a rematch. That line suggests Frost hadn’t been training seriously at the time of the Universe 6 tournament, which makes it unlikely that he was anywhere near post-training Freeza. Also, despite his reputation, Frost was ultimately a fraud who manipulated his way into victory rather than winning through raw power, further supporting the idea that he wasn’t exceptionally strong at that point. His later portrayal in the Tournament of Power, where Hit implies he’s stronger, is what really makes him scale closer to Freeza.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo was already stronger than the kids by the RoF arc and considering the kids are confirmed to have gotten stronger at the start of DBS, Piccolo was most likely stronger than them in the Boo arc as well.

[Koitsukai]

Buu saga Piccolo vs LSS Broly (M8)

Seven years after being weaker than the Cell Jrs., has he gotten to the point of being able to beat Broly's 1st coming?

[Hugo Boss]

If we go by movie scaling, Broly (M8) was likely above Super Vegeta, given how easily he dominated everyone. Trunks and Gohan’s hairstyles suggest they’re around their Semi-Perfect Cell fight levels, and Goku and Gohan seem to be somewhere between their pre- and post-Time Chamber strength.

If Piccolo in Boo arc is still not beyond Super Vegeta’s level, then he probably wouldn’t stand a chance against this Broly. Even with seven years of training, there’s little evidence that he progressed enough to close that gap.

[Almighty Majin]

I personally have M8 Broly around or maybe a little below Perfect Cell's full power so I don't see Buu arc Piccolo beating him.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Buu saga Piccolo vs LSS Broly (M8)

Seven years after being weaker than the Cell Jrs., has he gotten to the point of being able to beat Broly's 1st coming?

I have M8 Broly ~ Perfect Cell (vs Goku) and Buu saga Piccolo is weaker than Shin who's on par with Cell Games Goku So Broly would clobber the green man.

[dragon boss z]

Piccolo was already stronger than the kids by the RoF arc and considering the kids are confirmed to have gotten stronger at the start of DBS, Piccolo was most likely stronger than them in the Boo arc as well.

When was it stated Piccolo was stronger than the kids? And when was it stated the kids at the start of Super were stronger?

[ZombieVito]

When was it stated Piccolo was stronger than the kids? And when was it stated the kids at the start of Super were stronger?

Goku and Vegeta choose Piccolo instead of the kids for the U6 tournament. It was based on power since when Trunks complains about it to Vegeta, he said they need to get stronger on their own and not rely on fusion.

Them being stronger was confirmed on the Dragon Ball Super: Super Start Guide.

[Hugo Boss]

The guide’s statement about Goten and Trunks being ‘even stronger than before’ is vague and likely just a general reference to them having fought Majin Boo, not concrete evidence of a power increase in the years that followed. The context of Episode 1 of Super actually suggests the opposite, they struggle against a giant snake, something that shouldn’t be a problem if they had gotten significantly stronger. If anything, it implies they’ve softened due to their reliance on fusion.

As for the U6 tournament, Vegeta telling Trunks that he and Goten need to ‘get stronger on their own’ doesn’t necessarily mean Piccolo is outright stronger than them individually. It could simply mean that, without fusion, they aren’t at the level needed for the tournament. Goku and Vegeta also value experience and discipline in battle, areas where Piccolo has a clear advantage over the kids.

[Almighty Majin]

The context of Episode 1 of Super actually suggests the opposite, they struggle against a giant snake, something that shouldn’t be a problem if they had gotten significantly stronger.

Hey! That snake is stronger than the entire Ginyu Force combined and can give Freeza a decent fight, show some respect!

On a serious note, I do find it strange whenever wildlife is involved in fighting the main cast. There seems to be an implication that some wildlife out there seems to be absurdly strong for no reason.

I mean some notable examples would be the giant beetles on Planet Vampa which are seemingly stronger than Paragus who was given a PL of 4,200. Those beetles are stronger than Raditz for some reason. Likewise, RoF had that one sea monster eating a whole bunch of Freeza Soldiers, guys who would be at least in the 1,000 range.

Not saying that the giant snake from episode 1 is stronger than the Ginyu Force for real, I am being hyperbolic of course, but it certainly is some food for thought regarding DB wildlife.

I agree with your take though that the snake should not have been a problem.

[TobyS]

The context of Episode 1 of Super actually suggests the opposite, they struggle against a giant snake, something that shouldn’t be a problem if they had gotten significantly stronger.

Hey! That snake is stronger than the entire Ginyu Force combined and can give Freeza a decent fight, show some respect!

On a serious note, I do find it strange whenever wildlife is involved in fighting the main cast. There seems to be an implication that some wildlife out there seems to be absurdly strong for no reason.

I mean some notable examples would be the giant beetles on Planet Vampa which are seemingly stronger than Paragus who was given a PL of 4,200. Those beetles are stronger than Raditz for some reason. Likewise, RoF had that one sea monster eating a whole bunch of Freeza Soldiers, guys who would be at least in the 1,000 range.

Not saying that the giant snake from episode 1 is stronger than the Ginyu Force for real, I am being hyperbolic of course, but it certainly is some food for thought regarding DB wildlife.

I agree with your take though that the snake should not have been a problem.

Large Bears are stronger than people.
Saiyans are alien people.
Giant alien animals are stronger than People.

I see no issue there.

Rof, the soldiers were not all 1000 between 1000 and 3000 is what freezas best goons on namek were.

But yeah earth animals shouldn't be shit to the main cast but the snake thing is toei filler.

This is leftover trash years later the army is running on fumes and duct tape at that point.

[picc]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

[Super-Shenron]

Buu saga Piccolo vs LSS Broly (M8)

Seven years after being weaker than the Cell Jrs., has he gotten to the point of being able to beat Broly's 1st coming?

Piccolo is inferior to Shin and the Super Saiyan kids. Broly wins.

[Yuji]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

Sounds good. Only real hiccup is pre-ROF Piccolo since he's much weaker than a rusty SS Gohan in that arc. I guess you can handwave it as Gohan was just having difficulty accessing Super Saiyan, his battle power didn't decrease much from the Boo arc necessarily.

CG SS Gohan: 50
Boo arc SS Gohan: 40
RF SS Gohan: 35
PIccolo: 25
SS Goten & Trunks: 20

[johnboy1]

Who wins between GT Super Saiyan 4 Goku and a pile of dirty dishes? I know it sounds lopsided in Goku's favor, but imagine that the dishes are really dirty.