Vegeta learned to hide his true strength while on Earth??

[Senzu_Bean]

But Goku couldn't suppress his battle power before training with Kaio. If he could neither him, or Piccolo, would stand in his maximum doing nothing.

Suppressing battle power isn't the same as increase battle power through attacks. It is indeed a plothole Vegeta saying the Earthlings can suppress their battle powers, cause no one have done it before.

[rereboy]

But Goku couldn't suppress his battle power before training with Kaio. If he could neither him, or Piccolo, would stand in his maximum doing nothing.

Suppressing battle power isn't the same as increase battle power through attacks. It is indeed a plothole Vegeta saying the Earthlings can suppress their battle powers, cause no one have done it before.

If he couldn`t, then how could Krillin and the others learn it by doing basically the same training Goku did years ago?

As for why it looked different later on, I`ve already explained it. The ability to control the ki was something that evolved as the fighter`s power evolved. During the Radditz fight, their ability to control their power level was little more than accessing what they had in reserve to apply a finisher at full power. Then, as Goku evolved, he became able to increase and decrease his power from 8000 to 5000 like it was nothing. Then, it was from 90000 to 5000. And finally, Trunks showed us that he could decrease his power to 5 and still be able to have power in reserve to kill Freeza. The evolution in this ability is very clear in the manga/story.

But one thing is for sure. Goku and Piccolo`s increases in power during that fight were due to them being able to control their power.

[Senzu_Bean]

But Goku couldn't suppress his battle power before training with Kaio. If he could neither him, or Piccolo, would stand in his maximum doing nothing.

Suppressing battle power isn't the same as increase battle power through attacks. It is indeed a plothole Vegeta saying the Earthlings can suppress their battle powers, cause no one have done it before.

If he couldn`t, then how could Krillin and the others learn it by doing basically the same training Goku did years ago?

The Earthlings are trained by Kami and Goku was only trained by Mr. Popo. Piccolo also learnt it by himself.

[rereboy]

But Goku couldn't suppress his battle power before training with Kaio. If he could neither him, or Piccolo, would stand in his maximum doing nothing.

Suppressing battle power isn't the same as increase battle power through attacks. It is indeed a plothole Vegeta saying the Earthlings can suppress their battle powers, cause no one have done it before.

If he couldn`t, then how could Krillin and the others learn it by doing basically the same training Goku did years ago?

The Earthlings are trained by Kami and Goku was only trained by Mr. Popo. Piccolo also learnt it by himself.

No, it was the same training. And I`ve complemented my previous response.

[Senzu_Bean]

No, it was the same training. And I`ve complemented my previous response.

No, it wasn't. Goku was special training by Mr. Popo. Kami didn't had any input on his training. The Earthlings are trained by Kami himself.

Even if it was the same training that doesn't explain why everybody can suppress their battle power and yet Goku couldn't.

But one thing is for sure. Goku and Piccolo`s increases in power during that fight were due to them being able to control their power.

So you are saying Goku's maximum was over 900?

[rereboy]

No, it wasn't. Goku was special training by Mr. Popo. Kami didn't had any input on his training. The Earthlings are trained by Kami himself.

Even if it was the same training that doesn't explain why everybody can suppress their battle power and yet Goku couldn't.

I don`t have my manga with me but I´m pretty sure that Kami had as much input as he had during Goku`s training. And I`ve alredy told you that Goku could control his power level after that training. Only not to the same extent that he could later on.

But one thing is for sure. Goku and Piccolo`s increases in power during that fight were due to them being able to control their power.

So you are saying Goku's maximum was over 900?

Of course. Otherwise he wouldn`t be able to strike at over 900 would he?

[Senzu_Bean]

Our opinions diverge then. We should agree to disagree.

[rereboy]

Our opinions diverge then. We should agree to disagree.

Sure . But, don`t take this the wrong way... But then, how do you explain that Vegeta knew that the earthlings can control their power levels, before fighting them, if nobody during the fight with Radditz, did it? I`m just curious.

[dbgtFO]

I agree with Rereboy, because it makes sense, as has all ready been said no technique, but the kikoho and kaioken can put out a greater power level, than a persons max power. It's obvious, that it's hard for the body to gather all the available energy into one attack, if you haven't had enough training in that departement, for example in the 23rd TB, after regenerating his arm Piccolo gathers all his power into one big explosion(the one that blew up the island) Goku thinks to himself: "What an enourmous energy, I've never felt anything like it! Now it is really on!"
After the completion of the attack Goku remarks to Piccolo: "Forget about winning! You've used all of your power. You're done for." And after that he gathers his energy/powers up(meaning he was suppressed after the smoke had cleared) and starts attacking the defenseless demon prince.
And the Kamehameha and any other similar ki based techniques are NOT power level multipliers or whatever, you can't use ki based techniques that exceeds your body's limit.
The first time it is used Yamcha describes it as :" It is the Turtle wawe. All the hidden energies in the body is unleashed at once! Muten Roshi is famous because of it. That I would experience it..."
Not once implying that Kamehameha's power would exceed what his body could do, only saying that you gather the energy all ready there, that is hidden in the body.
Besides where is it stated that Goku learned how to suppress his power while with King Kai??

[FindKenshi]

So do you think that a scouter would have showed Vegeta at 18000 at all times during the Earth battle, even if Piccolo, Krillin, and the like couldn't tell if Vegeta was stronger than Nappa or not? I'm not quite sure I understand that theory, nor can I agree with it.

Battle power and "sensing ki" are very directly related. Krillin says "Gohan, release your ki!" and then the number on a scouter will rise up.. for the Ginyu force.

So ki level certainly is what battle power measures. Right?

In such a case, we know it is the ki of a warrior that Z-senshi "senses". So what they're sensing is the same as Battle Power. Is it not? If I'm off base here, just tell me.

So in order for them not to be able to sense who has the higher ki, then certainly Vegeta's ki level was reduced at the time, and he should not show up as 18000 on a scouter. Wouldn't make any sense.

[Dayspring]

Vegeta claims to have learned how to control his "psychic" energies on Earth, implying that his and Nappa's power ups are purely physical in nature. In other words:

Physical Energy Manipulation:
1) Is compared to kaioken by Vegeta, implying that it transfers energy into your strength, pushing you above your normal BP level.
2) Judging by Nappa's reaction to Goku increasing his strength (he asks Vegeta what the new reading is), this is uncommon, not unheard of. Raditz and Zarbon's comments give us the impression that it's about as common in the Universe as finding an Earthling who can use ki attacks and fly.
3) Always detected by scouters.

Psychic Energy Manipulation:
1) A more efficient way of increasing your BP above its normal level (Goku goes over 3,000, Vegeta less than 2,000).
2) Can also decrease your BP beneath its normal level, which results in:
-A) energy being conserved.
-B) hiding your strength for ki sensors and scouter readings.
3) Allows you to sense other people's ki.
4) Much more rare than physical manipulation.

So it's two different things. So 95% of people have no form of energy manipulation, whereas 5% have physical manipulation. Pretty much only Goku and co have psychic.

In other words, let's say Vegeta has an at rest BP of 16,500. Without the ability to focus his energy into his strength, it will stay that way, which is why Zarbon, Raditz, etc, never have changing BPs. But because Vegeta can manipulate his physical energy, he can increase it to 18,000 on Earth. This is rare enough as it is, but if he had psychic energy manipulation back then, it would have probably gone a bit higher, as well as given three other helpful abilities.

[Herms]

Goku only learned that with Kaio, at least that is what the SEG says.

That's what we actually see him learn from Popo in the series though, and he uses it at the 23rd TB. What the SEG was talking about Goku learning from Kaio was controlling ki for the Kaio-ken and Genki Dama.

[rereboy]

So do you think that a scouter would have showed Vegeta at 18000 at all times during the Earth battle, even if Piccolo, Krillin, and the like couldn't tell if Vegeta was stronger than Nappa or not? I'm not quite sure I understand that theory, nor can I agree with it.

Why not? Kiwi clearly expected his scouter to read Vegeta`s total power level accurately even though Vegeta was doing nothing. When Vegeta showed him that he was wrong, he was shocked and almost crapped his pants. Why exactly would this happen if Vegeta could make his scouter reading change before coming to Earth? It doesn`t make sense at all.

[FindKenshi]

Vegeta claims to have learned how to control his "psychic" energies on Earth, implying that his and Nappa's power ups are purely physical in nature.

I'm one who likes to use the facts. Such a statement was never dropped in the manga, anime, guidebooks, video games, etc.. was it not? Please, correct me if I'm wrong here.. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, it's just that I've never heard this before now. The word psychic is only used in Dragonball to refer to techniques used by Chaotzu, Blue Shogun, Guldo, and the like.. is it not? Or was VIZ's translations off by this much?

Also this whole "at rest" thing doesn't account for the huge difference in power between a Nappa and a Vegeta. Vegeta's power was certainly low enough where Piccolo wasn't positive that Nappa was stronger than him. And also Goku initially misjudging him and admitting at length that Vegeta appeared "tougher than I original thought."

If this was simply the difference between being "at rest" and being "all tensed up" then certainly the difference could not be that big. Certainly, Vegeta's power was supressed. Explain to me why I'm wrong, if I am.

Why not? Kiwi clearly expected his scouter to read Vegeta`s total power level accurately even though Vegeta was doing nothing. When Vegeta showed him that he was wrong, he was shocked and almost crapped his pants. Why exactly would this happen if Vegeta could make his scouter reading change before coming to Earth? It doesn`t make sense at all.

'Why not?' I just explained why not. And the reason Kiwi should have expected that, is because Toriyama Akira wrote himself into a plot hole? Why would a scouter be "better" at reading ki then the Z-Senshi.. when Krillin stated he could even tell the Namekians were holding back, which the scouters couldn't tell. We know that sensing the ammount of ki in their body, is equivalent to what a scouter will show.

There's never been any sign or hint or implication of a scouter displaying someone's hidden power while a Z-warior could not sense that power.

Are you saying we should just ignore Piccolo's and Goku's statements from the Saiyan saga? If so, then you're implying that the comments about raising power made on Namek are simply a retcon. If so, then what happened during the earth battle!? Magic??

EDIT: Basically, rereboy , it seems to me you're expressing what you thought just in order to make statements on Namek make sense, without trying to justify or make sense of what had happened on Earth basically.

[rereboy]

I`ve already said my explanation to the earthlings` actions.

Its obvious that, especially that early in Dragon Ball, scouters did a better job at measuring the exact power level of a fighter than the humans did by just sensing ki.
The humans would feel the power levels/ki of their enemies much more accurately and powerfully when their enemies started to actively use their power. The scouters, however, would record the same whether the fighter was actively using his power or not (as long as the fighter didn`t know how to suppress his power).

I`m not ignoring anything and I have my own opinion on everything that happened that actually provides an acceptable explanation.

Yours, however, do not explain certain things acceptably (your explanation for Kiwi (and reactions such as Kiwi`s) is just "plothole"). And that is why I don`t agree.

(One more thing I would like to add is that Krillin, sensing Freeza and his men pass by, was only able to tell that Freeza was surely stronger than Vegeta, when, in fact, there were three fighters there stronger than Vegeta was on earth. A scouter, as long as it didn`t explode, wouldn`t make that mistake, since they were unable to suppress their powers).

[FindKenshi]

You explain everything? In what way do you explain Piccolo and Goku not being able to sense Nappa's and Vegeta's true powers on Earth then? I'm curious to hear this explanation >_>

[rereboy]

I explain everything, in my opinion. I`m not trying to say that its the absolute truth. Its just my opinion. But it does explain everything, in my view.

If you don`t agree, well, too bad. What can I say? You just disagree with me. And I disagree with you.

As for your question, I`ve just answered that in my quote (and provided one more example of the differences in scouter reading and ki sensing with the Krillin and Freeza/Zarbon/Dodoria situation).

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm already out of the debate just wanted to point out Freeza can manipulate his battle power. He and Ginyu are the only one inside of "Freeza empire" capable of such thing.

[FindKenshi]

I guess we'll also have to agree to disagree then, since after all you're saying post-kaio training Son Goku also is worse than a scouter at sensing ki? Yep, I'll never agree with that, so we might as well end it here.

[rereboy]

I'm already out of the debate just wanted to point out Freeza can manipulate his battle power. He and Ginyu are the only one inside of "Freeza empire" capable of such thing.

I agree, but I think that in his first form he is always in the hundreds thousands. I do not believe that he can lower his power as much as Goku, for example, can, hence why he needed different transformations. But thats another debate. What I wanted to point out is that Krillin couldn`t even tell that there were more people there much stronger than Vegeta was on earth.