Inconsistency with Raditz?

[Nazi Cola]

A lot of people "know" Raditz's power level is 1,200, but according to Kanzentai (and I guess, by extension, Nappa), it's 1,500. But then why did he say Piccolo's Masenkosappa(sp?) would kill him if it hit him? Didn't he notice the type of attack it was after he dodged it?

[Savage68]

Raditz only ever said that the attack would kill him after he had been weakened by Gohan's headbutt and the initial Makankosappo (when it damaged his shoulder).

[Nazi Cola]

Raditz only ever said that the attack would kill him after he had been weakened by Gohan's headbutt and the initial Makankosappo (when it damaged his shoulder).

So in essence, those two assaults weakened him to the point where just the raw power of the Makankosappo would kill him?

[Savage68]

That's what I assume. He appeared to be pretty beat-up.

[Kaboom]

Also, the Makankosappo is an attack with special properties. Even if its power is somewhat weaker than Raditz, it could still drill right through him if he got hit. Same for the Kienzan being able to cut Nappa and Freeza despite Kuririn and his attacking power being so much weaker than both enemies.

[Nazi Cola]

That's what I assume. He appeared to be pretty beat-up.

Hm, the first Makankosappo was 1,330 and he didn't say it would kill him, but he said there wouldn't be much left of him, and he sure looked pretty shocked. What's that all about?

And what about him looking shocked at Goku's 924 Kamehameha? Just surprised that he could muster up all that power?

And the same with Gohan's 710 reading? Just surprise?

Also, the Makankosappo is an attack with special properties. Even if its power is somewhat weaker than Raditz, it could still drill right through him if he got hit. Same for the Kienzan being able to cut Nappa and Freeza despite Kuririn and his attacking power being so much weaker than both enemies.

Yeah, but we don't know if Raditz knew that the first time.

[Bussani]

I think the first Makankosappo might have killed him if it had hit him dead on. The power reading from it was at least 1330--possibly higher when actually fired--and it's a concentrated beam designed to focus all its power onto a single point and penetrate the target. It's like the difference between poking someone with X force using your finger and poking someone with X force using a needle.

And what about him looking shocked at Goku's 924 Kamehameha? Just surprised that he could muster up all that power?

He made some comments showing that he was surprised they could focus all their power into such small places, particularly Piccolo's huge amount of power being focused just into his fingertips. Could just be that, although I think it's still reasonable to worry about being hit by an attack like that. I mean, even if he's stronger than it, it's still probably not something you'd want to take in the face. I guess it's worth noting that Goku's Kamehameha was also "still increasing!"

[EnmaDaiou]

Kuririn almost killed Nappa even being extremely weaker.

[rereboy]

A lot of people "know" Raditz's power level is 1,200, but according to Kanzentai (and I guess, by extension, Nappa), it's 1,500. But then why did he say Piccolo's Masenkosappa(sp?) would kill him if it hit him? Didn't he notice the type of attack it was after he dodged it?

You also have to remember that the reason why the guides (and etc) state that Radditz has 1500 is only because Akira Toriyama stated that although the saibamen and Radditz pretty much on par with each other, he felt that Radditz was somewhat stronger.

That doesn`t necessarily mean that Radditz had 300 more than the saibamen. Radditz could still have 1200 but have a much better technique at fighting than the saibamen, who are essentially drones. So, yeah, I don`t really agree with the 1500. Following the manga, and Akira Toriyama`s statement, I would place Radditz between 1200 and 1300.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Raditz stated if he had took the first Light of Death, there "wouldn't be much of me left", as mentioned. Pretty sure he thought it would've finished him, or at least do serious damage.

And I don't think Raditz is above 1,307, so yeah.

[Dayspring]

The manga statement says that a BP of 1,200 is on par with Radditz, not identical to. So the Daizenshuu BP of 1,500 is neither right nor wrong, as we are never given his actual BP in the manga.

Also keep in mind the it's not all about power, but how you use. Note that Goku's BP of 24,000 almost lost to Vegeta's 18,000. To make things worse, because he almost lost to Vegeta, he used kaioken x4, meaning the kamehameha that sent Vegeta flying came from someone with a BP of 32,000. That should have obliterated Vegeta, but it didn't. This tells us it's possible for someone weaker to create an attack that can defeat someone stronger than them, as well as to survive an attack from someone stronger than them.

[Savage68]

The only thing that beam struggle told us was that a significant difference in battle power is negligible when the weaker character charges their attack preemptively enough to make a difference. Or, 'some attacks are stronger than others.' I mean, Piccolo took Kamehamehas directly from a much stronger Goku, and not only did they do much less than 'obliterate' him, but they didn't even defeat him.

[dbgtFO]

Raditz' BP is not an inconsistency in any way, as we see later on in the same saga that it's possible to damage someone even though you are much weaker, than the one defending.
For example: Gohan after Piccolo's death had managed to gather all his energy into his palms and then fire it at Nappa.
Vegeta:"2800, how do they do it??",
Nappa: "2800??"
*After Nappa deflects the blast*
Nappa: "... my hand is still sore"
This pretty much shows that even though Nappa most likely had a BP of around 6000-7000 he was still damaged, by an attack that was half his full power!!
So Raditz at 1500 isn't impossible.

[Dayspring]

Raditz' BP is not an inconsistency in any way, as we see later on in the same saga that it's possible to damage someone even though you are much weaker, than the one defending.
For example: Gohan after Piccolo's death had managed to gather all his energy into his palms and then fire it at Nappa.
Vegeta:"2800, how do they do it??",
Nappa: "2800??"
*After Nappa deflects the blast*
Nappa: "... my hand is still sore"
This pretty much shows that even though Nappa most likely had a BP of around 6000-7000 he was still damaged, by an attack that was half his full power!!
So Raditz at 1500 isn't impossible.

Exactly. If it was so cut and paste, Vegeta wouldn't have feared Goku's 5,000 even if Goku did manage to team up with three people weaker than him.

[omegacwa]

Like someone else said the Makankosappo has special properties.

Lay flat on your back and have someone drop a twenty pound weight on your stomach. It will hurt, especially if you do nothing to deflect it, IE flex your abdominals, but you most likely wouldn't be killed. Now do the same thing but with a twenty pound spike. Nothing you do, shy of moving out of the way which isn't an option, will stop it from piercing your stomach and most likely killing you.

The Makankosappo is like the twenty pound spike.

The Kiezan is the same way, imagine trying to catch a frisbee vs trying to catch a rotating buzz saw blade.

These are special moves designed to take out stronger opponents no matter what the gap in power. How they are developed, or how they specifically work I don't know, but it's a cool concept.

[jjgp1112]

I'm pretty sure that the Special Beam Cannon would've been killed regardless. As others have said, the Special Beam Cannon is essential a big dagger that can impale someone. It's just like in real life - it doesn't matter how tough you are, you're still gonna get hurt when someone stabs you with a 10 inch dagger

[Nazi Cola]

I brought up the fact that the Makankosappo would've killed Raditz regardless to another debater, and apparently it's only a highly concentrated chi wave recognizable by observation alone? It's not a technique designed to penetrate the opponent no matter the gap in power?

If Piccolo's attack had an identical result regardless of power, why didn't Piccolo just fire it when he thought Goku was going to let go of Raditz's tail? Did he need to make it so powerful in order to do any damage to Raditz at all? I mean, Krillin can just whip out Kienzans and they'll have the same result either way, so why can't Piccolo do the same?

As for Gohan hurting Nappa, I don't think Nappa had powered up at that point.

[Bussani]

I didn't mean to imply that the Makankosappo is an instant kill no matter how powerful your opponent is. The point is that it concentrates all of its power onto a single point instead of spreading out the damage across a wider area. It's about focusing all of its force onto that one point and shooting through it. If that one point is strong enough to resist it, then you're not going to do much.

Think of it this way: we'll have guy A with an arbitrary power number of 1,000 defending and guy B attacking with a ki attack that is also 1,000. In the first example, guy B fires a wide ki wave and engulfs guy A; guy A may be damaged by this, but overall has enough power to survive it just by bracing himself.

In the second example, guy B uses the same power, but focuses the attack down to the size of his fingertips. He fires it at guy A, who braces himself. The attack has the same power behind it, but it's focusing all of that power on a tiny point on guy A, whose power is still spread evenly throughout his body. Even though guy A has an overall defensive power of 1,000, the tiny point all that ki is focused on does not, and the attack pierces him. For guy A to survive in this case, he'd probably have to focus his own power down to an equally small point (like Goku focusing ki to his finger before blocking Trunks' sword) and block the attack with that.

Of course, if guy A had been 1,000,000 times more powerful than the attack, it probably wouldn't have killed him even if he'd just stood there; the one point the attack was focused on would be enough to defend against it. That's how I see it, anyway.

[dbgtFO]

@ Bussani
That is also a good explanation of why Raditz was afraid of Piccolo's attack, because not only was it close to his power level, it was also concentrated in a single point(his fingertips) which Raditz also notices.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't believe Raditz was 1,500 because he was severely damaged by Gohan's attack of 1,307, to the point that Goku was able to lock him in a full nelson. No way could Raditz have been damaged that badly if he was that much more powerful than Gohan. I agree with the theory that the Makankosappo has special properties, but the Gohan thing makes it impossible for Raditz to be any stronger than 1,307. And then there's the fact that Toriyama mentioned something about Raditz being on par with Saibaimen, but still being a little bit stronger. (Herms, can you provide some information, please?) 1,500 is not "a little stronger" than 1,200. Remember, this is the same Daizenshuu that claimed Vegeta could beat Dodoria, who supposedly have a battle power of 22,000, and Zarbon, who supposedly had a battle power of 23,000.