DBZ: Ultimate Blast/Tenkaichi (Pre-Release Discussion)

[ArchedThunder]

Maybe five years ago, nowadays hair and clothing clipping errors generally don't happen unless a game either has a low budget (Deadly Premonition) or the developers don't give a shit (Dragon Ball Z: Ultimate Tenkaichi)

Big games like Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mario, Gears of War, and especially Call of Duty have clipping errors on the character models and environment interacting. You obviously don't know much about games.

I never said it was non-existent, I said it wasn't as common as people are making it out to be. Yes those games have clipping problems, but you don't see them nearly as often in those games as you do a DBZ game. Most animators would notice when making that animation that the character's shoulder pads clip through their body and fix it.

No they wouldn't, Developers don't care about clipping, especially when it is with something unavoidable, like with the saiyan armor.

[Hao_Kaiser]

Most animators would notice when making that animation that the character's shoulder pads clip through their body and fix it.

Especially the sixth time that they press it onto a disc.

I don't think the issue is that there is clipping. The issue is that it's the exact same instance of the character model clipping through itself that they've pushed out since 2005.

You guys mention games like Call of Duty, GTA, and other AAA titles (not that these Dragon Ball games are "AAA titles"... Just roll with me here) also having clipping issues, and they totally do. But they don't ship what is essentially the same game with the same art/animation assets with the same graphical glitches year after year.

Like Taku said, I really don't understand why anyone is defending this. Clipping is obviously going to happen, but you would think they could bother to fix the animations that make it so obvious (like the Gohan screenshot that VegettoEX posted) - especially six iterations later. These games have always lacked polish, which is kinda silly when you consider how little is actually added every year.

[Jaruka]

VegettoEX is only stating that it can be avoidable because it's been a blatant problem (esp the Gohan arm) which should have been resolved 5 years ago and not just had a new set of clothes slapped on top instead of rotating the shoulder padding to avoid connection.

Yep, this. Forget other games -- this is about DBZ games, here.

I'm well aware of the problems that games still have to this day (pop-up, clipping, frame rate stutters, etc.), but this is specifically stuff in the DBZ games that I find unacceptable because it's literally the same character models and animations from a PS2 game being shoved in to the new era by a developer whose character models were never a strong point in the first place. It's yearly garbage that could be avoided with time and care; instead, I'm watching the same thing over and over and over.

I get that, to some degree, Namco-Bandai isn't willing to take the risk of a year off from a main console fighting game release to actually "fix" things and expect an audience to still be there two or three years later willing to give it another chance.

On the flip-side, were I not running a site about this stuff, I certainly wouldn't still be playing these games each year based on what they present to me.

A popular definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result at some point down the line. I've been playing this series of games (Sparking!-engine) since 2005. Thankfully I stopped paying for them after three.

Yet again, you don't know what you are talking about.

How about you actually say why, you know... Prove your point? It just makes you seem like the ignorant party in this 'argument'

[Eddie]

@ArchedThunder You're acting awfully absurd, you know. Who are you to say developers don't care about clipping, and how in the world is it unavoidable? Those statements are ridiculous and not factual. A little bit of clipping is unavoidable, sure. Advent Children (a very big budget film) even had a little bit of it. Was it on the level of Raging Blast, though? Hell no. The level of clipping present in Raging Blast is absolutely avoidable. It requires effort, but it certainly isn't impossible. As for whether or not certain people know what they're talking about, who are you to judge? You seem to want to school us on game design, but I've seen no indication that you are any more knowledgeable. Please, almighty video game knowledge God, please educate me, a mere peasant.

[ShinMassa]

Maybe five years ago, nowadays hair and clothing clipping errors generally don't happen unless a game either has a low budget (Deadly Premonition) or the developers don't give a shit (Dragon Ball Z: Ultimate Tenkaichi)

Big games like Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Mario, Gears of War, and especially Call of Duty have clipping errors on the character models and environment interacting. You obviously don't know much about games.

I never said it was non-existent, I said it wasn't as common as people are making it out to be. Yes those games have clipping problems, but you don't see them nearly as often in those games as you do a DBZ game. Most animators would notice when making that animation that the character's shoulder pads clip through their body and fix it.

You said that low budget or developers who don't give a shit have clipping problems, and I listed some games with fairly high budgets, and some developers who actually care.

I never said you thought it was non-existent. I don't think any devoloper should waste their time animating armor physics, because I sure as hell don't pay attention to that shit while pounding someone's face in during a battle.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Yet again, you don't know what you are talking about.

By itself, this is not a valid counter-argument. Rather, it is a means by which the supposed ignorance you are projecting onto other people is instead being tacked onto yourself. It causes you to appear defensive and robs your opinion of credibility.

Either develop your answers more fully in order that you may participate more properly, or yield the conversation to those that do. Please and thank you.


~Da Lemmy

[mckeg]

Ok I guess when all agree (sorta) on clipping. The extact same models as 2005? No.

Based on same original development art asset? Probably yes.

Same as RB & RB2 with a new lick of paint? quite obiviously.

Strange thing is no ones really mentioning much about how the new controls work etc... That's part of game play which is more important (to me), I can handle lazy slightly redone assets, if they make good major improvements and changes to the gameplay.

RB did good improvements over sparking, you could easliy add specials, supers and ultimates into a combo string. I hated how you backflipped first if too close in sparking, it basicly told the other player what your doing next.

RB2 gameplay improved again, but the 2d style combo chain animation cancels didn't quite look natural. It was the way you sorta kept sucking forward to the opponent wilst standing perfectly straight to keep the combo chain going. It just didnt look natural.

[ShinMassa]

Ok I guess when all agree (sorta) on clipping. The extact same models as 2005? no. based on same original development art asset? probably yes. same as RB & RB2? quite obiviously.

Yeah, I also find that funny people think these are the exact same models from 2005.

[ArchedThunder]

@ArchedThunder You're acting awfully absurd, you know. Who are you to say developers don't care about clipping, and how in the world is it unavoidable? Those statements are ridiculous and not factual. A little bit of clipping is unavoidable, sure. Advent Children (a very big budget film) even had a little bit of it. Was it on the level of Raging Blast, though? Hell no. The level of clipping present in Raging Blast is absolutely avoidable. It requires effort, but it certainly isn't impossible. As for whether or not certain people know what they're talking about, who are you to judge? You seem to want to school us on game design, but I've seen no indication that you are any more knowledgeable. Please, almighty video game knowledge God, please educate me, a mere peasant.

Well lets see, Advent Children is a CGI movie, not a game. There is no excuse for Clipping in a CGI movie as they are not intractable and thus you can manipulate the models in anyway. A game is not the same. The way that a video game model works is completely different than a CGI model. They have to be confined to set movements and are typically one large object with a few particles or sprites coming off of it, with a CG model you can segment them in anyway you want for a specific scene because it is pre-rendered. I could go on but I don't think that your arrogance deserves my time.

[goku the krump dancer]

I could go on but I don't think that your arrogance deserves my time.

If anything its you and a few others who are being arrogant. Your new here and yet as soon as you got on the forum you've done nothing but try to belittle everyone just because we had a different opinion on this most recent Dragon Ball game.

[Saimaroimaru]

I could go on but I don't think that your arrogance deserves my time.

If anything its you and a few others who are being arrogant. Your new here and yet as soon as you got on the forum you've done nothing but try to belittle everyone just because we had a different opinion on this most recent Dragon Ball game.

Oh? Does that list of arrogant people include me?

[goku the krump dancer]

I could go on but I don't think that your arrogance deserves my time.

If anything its you and a few others who are being arrogant. Your new here and yet as soon as you got on the forum you've done nothing but try to belittle everyone just because we had a different opinion on this most recent Dragon Ball game.

Oh? Does that list of arrogant people include me?

No, To be blunt I was reffering to ArchedThunder, Shin Massa and Shin Chou Senshi.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Yep, this. Forget other games -- this is about DBZ games, here.

I'm well aware of the problems that games still have to this day (pop-up, clipping, frame rate stutters, etc.), but this is specifically stuff in the DBZ games that I find unacceptable because it's literally the same character models and animations from a PS2 game being shoved in to the new era by a developer whose character models were never a strong point in the first place. It's yearly garbage that could be avoided with time and care; instead, I'm watching the same thing over and over and over.

I get that, to some degree, Namco-Bandai isn't willing to take the risk of a year off from a main console fighting game release to actually "fix" things and expect an audience to still be there two or three years later willing to give it another chance.

On the flip-side, were I not running a site about this stuff, I certainly wouldn't still be playing these games each year based on what they present to me.

A popular definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result at some point down the line. I've been playing this series of games (Sparking!-engine) since 2005. Thankfully I stopped paying for them after three.

Yet again, you don't know what you are talking about.

Oh wise and intelligent ArchedThunder please enlighten us! While you are at it, please watch your double posts(I'm no moderator but it's really hard to follow with you posting twice).



Also, yes, nobody is perfect and clippings will happen to even some of the best games but that doesn't make this point invalid. There is no denying that this is the same coding from SIX YEARS AGO; some characters have the same move animations(and it's not just Gohan) from 2005 and I'm seeing the same problems I've seen SIX YEARS AGO still here today(character's limbs falling through the ground). Again nobody is perfect but six years later you'd think(I EXPECT) Spike to come up with solutions to avoid this. Especially if they are pricing there games at $60 a pop (and rarely dropping price). Unlike, VegettoEX I don't need to purchase these games; and honestly I haven't. I've rented and borrowed Raging Blast and Raging Blast 2 because I refuse to pay for something I already own(3 times!!!)

[mysticboy]

Well in RB2 characters didn't clip through the ground as much. I guess that counts for something.

[Saimaroimaru]

Well in RB2 characters didn't clip through the ground as much. I guess that counts for something.

But in RB1 ugh.

That being said Spike knows how to make stages. Maybe they should specialize in it after this game or try a hand at console rpgs for dbz. The background(past the barrier) of their stages looks beautiful.

I wonder if they are gonna do dlc for the character creation or do pre-order stuff for it. If they are smart they can milk this feature.

[Hellspawn28]

I have not been on the site for a while and I have not read this thread for a while neither, I have hear about the character creation mode today. Sounds like a awesome idea but I imagine that it's going to be like the character creation mode in Mortal Kombat: Armageddon where a lot of characters play and feel the same.

I will be looking forward to it though, I have some old AF characters that I made years ago. I have a feeling that we will be seeing a lot of Xicor's being created.

[ArchedThunder]

I could go on but I don't think that your arrogance deserves my time.

If anything its you and a few others who are being arrogant. Your new here and yet as soon as you got on the forum you've done nothing but try to belittle everyone just because we had a different opinion on this most recent Dragon Ball game.

There is a difference between an opinion and being wrong. I could have an opinion that gravity doesn't exist, doesn't mean I'm not wrong.

[ArchedThunder]

Yep, this. Forget other games -- this is about DBZ games, here.

I'm well aware of the problems that games still have to this day (pop-up, clipping, frame rate stutters, etc.), but this is specifically stuff in the DBZ games that I find unacceptable because it's literally the same character models and animations from a PS2 game being shoved in to the new era by a developer whose character models were never a strong point in the first place. It's yearly garbage that could be avoided with time and care; instead, I'm watching the same thing over and over and over.

I get that, to some degree, Namco-Bandai isn't willing to take the risk of a year off from a main console fighting game release to actually "fix" things and expect an audience to still be there two or three years later willing to give it another chance.

On the flip-side, were I not running a site about this stuff, I certainly wouldn't still be playing these games each year based on what they present to me.

A popular definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result at some point down the line. I've been playing this series of games (Sparking!-engine) since 2005. Thankfully I stopped paying for them after three.

Yet again, you don't know what you are talking about.

Oh wise and intelligent ArchedThunder please enlighten us! While you are at it, please watch your double posts(I'm no moderator but it's really hard to follow with you posting twice).



Also, yes, nobody is perfect and clippings will happen to even some of the best games but that doesn't make this point invalid. There is no denying that this is the same coding from SIX YEARS AGO; some characters have the same move animations(and it's not just Gohan) from 2005 and I'm seeing the same problems I've seen SIX YEARS AGO still here today(character's limbs falling through the ground). Again nobody is perfect but six years later you'd think(I EXPECT) Spike to come up with solutions to avoid this. Especially if they are pricing there games at $60 a pop (and rarely dropping price). Unlike, VegettoEX I don't need to purchase these games; and honestly I haven't. I've rented and borrowed Raging Blast and Raging Blast 2 because I refuse to pay for something I already own(3 times!!!)

No, it is far from the same "Coding" I don't even think you know what coding pertains to in terms of games, most people don't, and no they are not the same animations, all animations have been redone, you can't just slap an animation that is rigged to a blocky low poly model onto a high poly, it just doesn't work like that.
Also feet haven't gone through the ground since RB1 and I will explain in more detail why we will not see this problem with Gohan fixed. The shoulder pauldrons of the Saiyan armor are non solids protruding from the model. They are not always there, they are only on an alternate outfit, which are the same models working with permutations in textures and particles. The design of the saiyan armor stops his arm from being able to move freely and thus it clips. It has nothing to do with Spike's game design or "coding", it is essentially Toriyama's fault.

[mysticboy]

Also feet haven't gone through the ground since RB1 and I will explain in more detail why we will not see this problem with Gohan fixed. The shoulder pauldrons of the Saiyan armor are non solids protruding from the model. They are not always there, they are only on an alternate outfit, which are the same models working with permutations in textures and particles. The design of the saiyan armor stops his arm from being able to move freely and thus it clips. It has nothing to do with Spike's game design or "coding", it is essentially Toriyama's fault.

The armor stretched and bent to fit shoulder movements in the series/manga, but I see what you're saying though. Since the armor stretches, wouldn't they be able to make that happen in game without them having to make a useless model or something like that?

[Rukura]

Maybe you still haven't noticed, ArchedThunder, but there's a world of a diference between replying something like "actually, that's not quite the case because *explanation with sources and examples to back up your statement*" and "As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.

Politeness. You might wanna learn some, if you wanna stick around.

The kinda atitude that you, Shin Massa and Shin Chou Senshi keep throwing around is helping nobody. One can't help but wonder why join in the first place, if that's all you're gonna contribute to conversations...