South Kaioshin...

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I discovered a hole in the Evil boo > Pure boo believers (which I discover a lot of holes in this belief), this is simply just making a point on South kaioshin and his true power. Some of you believe that South Kaioshin increased Pure boo's strength dramatically. How does your conclusion come to this when it's been established by kaioshin that none of the Kaioshins (I repeat!!!!!!! NONE of the Kaioshins) have managed to pull out the Z sword or even a match for Boo for that matter when all it took was Ssj Gohan to barely manage that. Please note that this was a weaker Gohan not as strong as he was 7 years prior. That ultimately concludes that South Kaioshin is weaker than Ssj1 Goku and it being illogical to believe that South kaioshin gave boo such a gigantic increase...

This won't change my belief that Pure boo > Evil boo, I am just wanting to round up your opinions on the case. I still believe that South kaioshin's goodness lowered boo's power since he was not connected to Boo anymore when Boo's power rose. Dai kaioshin just gave him a jolly nature making him controllable as shown with Evil boo and Fat boo having more of a conscience. Technically all the kaioshin's are pure good since they are Gods and boo is a demonic being ultimately lowering his power through a heart obtained through absorption allowing Boo's power to increase after Good boo was torn out.

[Bussani]

That ultimately concludes that South Kaioshin is weaker than Ssj1 Goku and it being illogical to believe that South kaioshin gave boo such a gigantic increase...

I don't see why that's illogical to believe. Characters in Dragon Ball get gigantic increases in power for all sorts of reasons, and we don't really know how Buu's absorptions work to begin with.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

That ultimately concludes that South Kaioshin is weaker than Ssj1 Goku and it being illogical to believe that South kaioshin gave boo such a gigantic increase...

I don't see why that's illogical to believe. Characters in Dragon Ball get gigantic increases in power for all sorts of reasons, and we don't really know how Buu's absorptions work to begin with.

So care to explain why when Evil boo absorbed Gohan it added the power that his body offered? Also if that were the case, then South Kaioshin would have been able to pull out the Z sword. The guy wasn't a match for boo for crying out loud.

[rereboy]

- Kaioshin saw Gohan turn into SSJ2 at the tournament. Later, he saw Gohan fight with Dabura and Buu, without Gohan visibly turning into a SSJ2 and said that Gohan was much stronger than he thought he was. Because of this, its uncertain if Gohan was supposed to be using his SSJ2 power or his SSJ1 power when he was fighting those guys and when he removed the sword. It seems to fit much better in the story that Gohan used his SSj2 power, but since he visibly didn't have the sparks of lightning, we can't be sure.

- It was said that no Kaioshin had been able to remove the sword, not that every Kaioshin had tried it. We don't even know if South Kaioshin tried it.

- We don't even know exactly how the sword worked. Sure, it was heavy, but that couldn't be the only reason why it had been proven impossible to remove by many Kaioshins, who were most likely all much stronger than Freeza and therefore able to lift insane weights. It was probably tied down to the ground with magic, since magic or a similar technique was used to imprison the elder Kaioshin in the sword. So... What does it take to overcome that magic or whatever? Just power? We basically have no idea. Elder Kaioshin mentions that he was imprisoned in there by a villain who feared him and that obviously didn't wanted him to be released... What if that villain also made the sword extra resistant to Kaioshins since the sword was in the Kaioshin realm, where only Kaioshins are supposed to live, and therefore were the only creatures likely to try to remove the sword? We know so little about the sword that this is entirely possible, but we just don't know... If this was true, South Kaioshin could have tried to remove it and despite the fact that he had enough power to remove it if he wasn't a Kaioshin, he couldn't because he was a Kaioshin... We just don't know for sure exactly how the sword works.

- We also don't really know for sure how Buu's absorptions work. If his power becomes exactly his previous plus the entirety of the power of the one absorbed, if his power increases by a amount that corresponds to most of one absorbed power, if his power actually increases by more than the power of the one absorbed (kind of like fusion provides with more power than the sum of the fighters, but not as great as fusion in providing that bonus power)... And the fact that there was one absorption that actually had a negative effect on Buu only confuses us further (and kind of reminds me of the failed fusions of Gotenks)... So yeah, we don't know much about the absorptions either.

[mattymoron]

I've never understood this confusion. Where is it EVER implied that Kid Boo is the strongest form of Boo?

[rereboy]

I've never understood this confusion. Where is it EVER implied that Kid Boo is the strongest form of Boo?

It was implied in the anime. Hence the confusion. In the manga, there is no such thing. In fact, its only implied the opposite.

[Bussani]

So care to explain why when Evil boo absorbed Gohan it added the power that his body offered?

What do you mean? He absorbed Gohan and it made him stronger. I don't see how that applies to anything.

Also if that were the case, then South Kaioshin would have been able to pull out the Z sword. The guy wasn't a match for boo for crying out loud.

How does Buu getting stronger from absorbing South Kaioshin mean that South Kaioshin should have been able to pull the Z-sword out? I could be misinterpreting, but I think you're just deciding for yourself how Buu's absorptions work.

[Darkprince410]

The thing is, is that even though it would be obvious that the strongest Kaioushin would want to give it a shot, there's nothing actually saying that he had attempted to pull it out. The way it's worded isn't a matter of all of them have tried and failed, just that all THAT have tried have failed.

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

So care to explain why when Evil boo absorbed Gohan it added the power that his body offered? Also if that were the case, then South Kaioshin would have been able to pull out the Z sword. The guy wasn't a match for boo for crying out loud.

We don't know what exactly it did. No one makes a comment suggesting that it simply added Gohan's power to Buu, like "Absorbing Gohan nearly tripled my power" or something along those lines, just that absorbing Gohan made him vastly stronger.

[Fox666]

and it being illogical to believe that South kaioshin gave boo such a gigantic increase...

It has never been explained in the manga how Majin Boo increases his power by absorbing other people.

Technically all the kaioshin's are pure good since they are Gods and boo is a demonic being ultimately lowering his power through a heart obtained through absorption allowing Boo's power to increase after Good boo was torn out.

The manga is clear about Dai Kaioshin being different of the others, and it doesn't matter if you don't understand why.

What you are saying is nothing but a fan theory.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

and it being illogical to believe that South kaioshin gave boo such a gigantic increase...

It has never been explained in the manga how Majin Boo increases his power by absorbing other people.

Technically all the kaioshin's are pure good since they are Gods and boo is a demonic being ultimately lowering his power through a heart obtained through absorption allowing Boo's power to increase after Good boo was torn out.

The manga is clear about Dai Kaioshin being different of the others, and it doesn't matter if you don't understand why.

What you are saying is nothing but a fan theory.

And saying that South Kaioshin increased boo's power isn't a fan theory?? No offense but you are coming off as a hypocrite now. All that was said was the "heart that lowered his power through absorption has changed back to the way it once was". How is a clear explanation on why Boo's power rose instead of dropped a fan theory?
No actually, to say that boo's power rose, then dropped back down is a theory. South Kaioshin was not connected to Boo anymore when his power rose. How can you gain power off of no source? Also the manga was clear that Dai kaioshin's jolly nature made him controllable as in Fat boo and Evil boo were more controllable while Pure Boo was unrestricted. Nature has nothing to do with lowering his power since with that logic, Goten and Gohan would have lowered his power. I still rest my case on this and as I said, I was just gathering up your opinions to see what other people feel about how strong South Kaioshin really is. You are trying to treat this as an actual phenomenon. Why wouldn't South Kaioshin try to pull the sword out? See, that is another excuse man.

[Darkprince410]

The Dai Kaioushin's nature of being "extra" pure, pious, etc was brought up specifically as being a reason for why his strength was suppressed. If his purity wasn't unique to himself, then they wouldn't have mentioned it as being why he was suppressed at all. As for it being more of a fan theory than anything else, you have to look at it from this perspective.

Goku, when alone with Vegeta inside Buu, adamantly states that the two of them stand no chance of beating Buu at their current strength, even though they've weakened him to his normal Evil Buu form. Goku not only chastises Vegeta twice for having destroyed the Potaras, but also suggested they perform the fusion dance once they escape. Their size is a non-issue here, because Goku is establishing this as a matter of when they escape (thus regaining their original size), but for him to feel that fusing with Vegeta, permanently or otherwise, was the only way for them to win, that establishes quite clearly that Evil Buu is more powerful than him.

Then we have the obvious fact of Buu's power increasing as he regressed from Evil Buu to South Kaioushin Buu, nothing really to elaborate on there.

Then finally we have Goku and Pure Buu. For the entire duration that he had the ability to transform and maintain Super Saiya-jin 3, he believed he was strong enough to destroy Pure Buu on his own, and only felt like fusing would have made the fight super easy for them to beat. Why would Goku, who clearly can tell how powerful both of them are, feel that he has a chance against Pure Buu but have no chance against Evil Buu unless Evil Buu was the stronger, and in turn that only absorbing Dai Kaioushin weakened his power.

My theory, supported by what we see in the manga, is that even if there is a sudden change to who Buu has absorbed, it takes him a bit of time before his body physically shows the results of that change (like it's adjusting to the change in ki he is receiving or not receiving), and, in the case of losing an absorption, the longer they had been a part of him, the longer it will take for his body to adjust because their ki has saturated him more. I come to this theory based on what we see with Gotenks Buu reverting to Piccolo Buu, and later when Gohan Buu reverts down to Piccolo Buu. In both cases, we see Buu seem to notice the change (such as Gotenks Buu suddenly halting in his charge towards Goku) and then a few seconds later actually make the change to the new form, even though we've seen that Gotenks's fusion, when it wears off, it's an instant separation. Since Evil Buu had Mr. Buu in him far longer than he had Gotenks or Gohan, his body would have been saturated by the kis of the South and Dai Kaioushin, thus when Mr. Buu was finally removed, their kis took longer to dissipate, with Dai Kaioushin's dissipating sooner because it was the weaker of the two.

As for why South Kaioushin may or may not have attempted to remove the Z Sword, who's to say? We can't say for certain that he did attempt to or didn't attempt to, just that how it's worded in the manga leaves room for the possibility that he didn't.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Since the guy that sealed Ru Kaioshin was an enemy of the Kaioshins and used magic to seal him, it doesn't sound to me too unbelievable that the seal was a special seal that prevented the Kaioshins to pull the Z-Sword.

[Blackstripe]

Since the guy that sealed Ru Kaioshin was an enemy of the Kaioshins and used magic to seal him, it doesn't sound to me too unbelievable that the seal was a special seal that prevented the Kaioshins to pull the Z-Sword.

That's just a DBM fan theory. If we're going to play this tired old record again, let's at least use facts we can back up.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's just a DBM fan theory. If we're going to play this tired old record again, let's at least use facts we can back up.

I know, I didn't use it as a fact. I just say that it makes sense this way (to me at least).

[dprez]

The guy who sealed him up could've made it so no Kaioshin could release him. If he was that powerful and had magic like that, who knows...

[rereboy]

Since the guy that sealed Ru Kaioshin was an enemy of the Kaioshins and used magic to seal him, it doesn't sound to me too unbelievable that the seal was a special seal that prevented the Kaioshins to pull the Z-Sword.

That's just a DBM fan theory. If we're going to play this tired old record again, let's at least use facts we can back up.

Given the fact that we simply don't know exactly how the magic or whatever it is that was holding the sword on the ground works, that theory has as much merit as any other that tries to elaborate on how it works, especially since we know that the being that sealed the elder Kaioshin in the sword was a villain and most likely didn't want him to be released by other Kaioshins and that makes the whole theory pretty logical.

But, like I said in my post, that is the whole point. We simply don't know enough on how it works.

[Darkprince410]

Since the guy that sealed Ru Kaioshin was an enemy of the Kaioshins and used magic to seal him, it doesn't sound to me too unbelievable that the seal was a special seal that prevented the Kaioshins to pull the Z-Sword.

That's just a DBM fan theory. If we're going to play this tired old record again, let's at least use facts we can back up.

Given the fact that we simply don't know exactly how the magic or whatever it is that was holding the sword on the ground works, that theory has as much merit as any other that tries to elaborate on how it works, especially since we know that the being that sealed the elder Kaioshin in the sword was a villain and most likely didn't want him to be released by other Kaioshins and that makes the whole theory pretty logical.

But, like I said in my post, that is the whole point. We simply don't know enough on how it works.

Not to mention, though it's played out more that way in the anime than it is in the manga, it has a very Arthurian/Excalibur feel to it, that Gohan was destined to remove the sword and, no matter the strength of the others that tried, they wouldn't be able to move it.

However, if there was a seal placed around it so that Kaioushin couldn't move it, it seems that Rou Kaioushin wasn't aware of it, since he commented that he always assumed that it'd be a Kaioushin that would free him, though that might at the same time still imply the same situation of a single person being destined to, just that he thought it'd be a Kaioushin that'd be the destined one.

[Bussani]

That's just a DBM fan theory. If we're going to play this tired old record again, let's at least use facts we can back up.

The thing is, many people here here has been over this a million times. No one in this thread has posted anything I haven't seen brought up or suggested before. No one will change their mind or form new opinions if they're just retreading the same arguments and looking at the same facts for the hundredth time. Of course, there are probably people who haven't done this a hundred times, but they don't seem to be who OWmyDragonBallz is aiming this at.

I'd like to try to make a point--the same point I often try to make in these sorts of discussions, as a matter of fact--despite it usually being futile.

No actually, to say that boo's power rose, then dropped back down is a theory.

After Vegeta comments on Buu's final transformation, Goku says: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Did what? According to you they only made him worse. Goku's comment makes no sense if you take it that way. Can you explain it? I'll bet you can--but I don't see how it wouldn't be an "excuse" or "over-thinking it".

So in the end, am I even saying you're wrong to interpret it the way you are? No. You're free to interpret it however you want. But so is everyone else, and your interpretation isn't any simpler, more logical, or more obvious than theirs. I think you're being a bit hypocritical when you accuse others of coming up with conspiracy theories.

[Fox666]

And saying that South Kaioshin increased boo's power isn't a fan theory?? No offense but you are coming off as a hypocrite now.

No. I am not posting it as if it was a fact like you. You should at least put before your post "I like to think that Boo can't take power from the Kaioshins" instead of trying to convince others based on that.

All that was said was the "heart that lowered his power through absorption has changed back to the way it once was". How is a clear explanation on why Boo's power rose instead of dropped a fan theory?

This is the entire text:

Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

I believe the interpretation of these panels is very simply: Dai Kaioshin lowered Boo's power. Of course since nothing is mentioned about South Kaioshin lowering Boo's power, but instead East Kaioshin is specific about Dai Kaioshin, the conclusion is that it is not the case with South Kaioshin.

No actually, to say that boo's power rose, then dropped back down is a theory.

No, it's just a possible interpretation of the manga.

South Kaioshin was not connected to Boo anymore when his power rose. How can you gain power off of no source?

Boo was slowly returning to his original form. One of the intermediate states was the South Kaioshin-absorbed form. That's what we know from the manga.

If you don't understand how the organism of a magical and fictional being works, frankly that doesn't prove anything.

Also the manga was clear that Dai kaioshin's jolly nature made him controllable as in Fat boo and Evil boo were more controllable while Pure Boo was unrestricted. Nature has nothing to do with lowering his power since with that logic, Goten and Gohan would have lowered his power.

It does, it is said in the manga. If you don't agree send a letter to Toriyama complaining about it.

I still rest my case on this and as I said, I was just gathering up your opinions to see what other people feel about how strong South Kaioshin really is. You are trying to treat this as an actual phenomenon.

I am not trying anything, except maybe pointing out the flaws in your argumentation.

Why wouldn't South Kaioshin try to pull the sword out? See, that is another excuse man.

So that proves that South Kaioshin did? That's an absurd fallacy.

"Why wouldn't Obama drink milk last night? That proves he did!" No it doesn't, we have no means to know about what Obama does in his private life.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not to mention, though it's played out more that way in the anime than it is in the manga, it has a very Arthurian/Excalibur feel to it, that Gohan was destined to remove the sword and, no matter the strength of the others that tried, they wouldn't be able to move it.

In Shin Budokai 2, it happened like this in the story mode.

The story is a what-if Boo was revived in Trunks' world, and Trunks calls the Z-Senshi post-Boo arc to help him. At one point, Gohan goes to the Kaioshin Realm for the Z-Sword, but he couldn't take it out. Then he says that he is not the chosen one in this world, but Future Gohan is. So they find Future Gohan, he draws the Z-Sword, it breaks, and he became Ultimate Future Gohan.

Of course, a video game isn't our best source, but at least we have an official explanation.