Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm not sure I should get involved in this at all, but something did catch my attention: the soul vs. spirit discussion.

In English, the word spirit can be a bit vague, but I'd at least like to point out that it isn't always synonymous with the soul. Personally, I'd say there's a distinction between the two. According to an online dictionary:

spirit
 
spir·it
[spir-it] Show IPA
noun
1. the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.

This also happens to be the definition that best matches the way Japan uses the term. To have spirit is to be spirited, to be in high spirits, to have willpower, drive, determination, courage, etc. I'd say that sort of thing comes from the soul, but is distinct from it.

Still, all that said, I think it's clear that Uub is supposed to have Buu's power inside him somewhere. Whether it all came out during his fight with Goku is a matter of opinion.

That explanation works for me. Also why did this topic all of the sudden get so popular ?

[Perfect]

Plausible theories and opinions are the same thing. Both are based on material that isn't necessarily true. Goku does train constantly. Whenever he isn't fighting, eating, or hanging out with his family he is training. There is no indication that basic training doesn't work. Vegeta has been doing it for the 7 years between the Android arc and the Buu arc and he got stronger. 100x gravity does affect him, it just doesnt affect him very much. training under 100x gravity is still more effective than training under regular gravity. Ki also isn't a muscle. As long as you are doing something it can likely be improved. If it simply couldn't be improved with basic training anymore Goku wouldn't have gotten any stronger over those 10 years which can't work since Goku said he would get stronger.

No they're not. First you have to establish what an opinion is. An opinion isn't based on any knowledge or facts, but a theory is. There's plenty of indication that basic training just flat out fails past a certain level, hence why new mediums are introduced.

Vegeta barley got stronger, he was more than likely still weaker than Cell and Gohan before his Majin boost, see Occam's Razor.

We're given no indication that it affected him. It works the same way weights do. There was a time in my younger years when curling 30 pounds was somewhat difficult, but now I can barley feel it. The effect on Goku would be so minuscule that the difference wouldn't matter, it's the same way with lifting weights, unless you do a ton of reps (and this can be literal). How many curls would I have to do with 5 pounds before I'd get tired? Probably over a thousand, making the training ineffective. It'd only make a difference if he'd stayed under training for a long period of time, at least before the slight strain would catch up with him. So to be blunt, it's really not more effective, it's about as effective of me curling a 5 pound weight.

I never stated ki was a muscle... where are you getting that from? Ki can be improved sure, but it can also deteriorate (Gohan). Basic training becomes ineffective because the gain becomes minuscule in comparison to the whole. If the whole is 100 million, and the gain is 500 a year, there'd be no point in utilizing the method.

@Bussani Which is pretty much what I stated on the subject of ki. Although willpower would have been a good word to use. Ultimately it's really just that good old shonen principle.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Plausible theories and opinions are the same thing. Both are based on material that isn't necessarily true. Goku does train constantly. Whenever he isn't fighting, eating, or hanging out with his family he is training. There is no indication that basic training doesn't work. Vegeta has been doing it for the 7 years between the Android arc and the Buu arc and he got stronger. 100x gravity does affect him, it just doesnt affect him very much. training under 100x gravity is still more effective than training under regular gravity. Ki also isn't a muscle. As long as you are doing something it can likely be improved. If it simply couldn't be improved with basic training anymore Goku wouldn't have gotten any stronger over those 10 years which can't work since Goku said he would get stronger.

No they're not. First you have to establish what an opinion is. An opinion isn't based on any knowledge or facts, but a theory is. There's plenty of indication that basic training just flat out fails past a certain level, hence why new mediums are introduced.

Vegeta barley got stronger, he was more than likely still weaker than Cell and Gohan before his Majin boost, see Occam's Razor.

We're given no indication that it affected him. It works the same way weights do. There was a time in my younger years when curling 30 pounds was somewhat difficult, but now I can barley feel it. The effect on Goku would be so minuscule that the difference wouldn't matter, it's the same way with lifting weights, unless you do a ton of reps (and this can be literal). How many curls would I have to do with 5 pounds before I'd get tired? Probably over a thousand, making the training ineffective. It'd only make a difference if he'd stayed under training for a long period of time, at least before the slight strain would catch up with him. So to be blunt, it's really not more effective, it's about as effective of me curling a 5 pound weight.

I never stated ki was a muscle... where are you getting that from? Ki can be improved sure, but it can also deteriorate (Gohan). Basic training becomes ineffective because the gain becomes minuscule in comparison to the whole. If the whole is 100 million, and the gain is 500 a year, there'd be no point in utilizing the method.

Yeah even with the exponential Ki growth I have Vegeta at barely equal to SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell games before the Father-Son Kamehameha. Vegeta did seem pretty confident in his ability to take on Gohan thinking he was just as strong though. I would say Vegeta got a good deal stronger. Opinions can be based on facts too you know. Here lets define opinion: A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. Not necessarily meaning it can be. No Ki does not necessarily work in the same way weight training does. We are given no indication it works that way. Again Vegeta gets a good deal stronger in 7 years with basic training.

[Perfect]

My definition's a little different. "A belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." How am I using theory? "A set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based." The two in the context I'm referring to are completely different. I suppose based was poor wording on my behalf--I should have used sufficient grounds in its place, as that would have solified my argument.

Majin Vegeta - A
Dabra - B
Adult Gohan - C
SP Cell - D
Vegeta - E

A > D <=> B > E > C
Majin Vegeta was obviously the strongest out of this lot, I'm sure everyone agrees there. Daizenshuu 7 states Cell and Dabra have equal battle powers, so they're even. Adult Gohan is a lot weaker, so his base battle power faded, whereas Vegeta's improved, enough at least that gave Vegeta room to boast above him. However, given Piccolo's sentiments that Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Gohan were hard to tell from one another in power, the gap couldn't be all that big. The Majin boost was clearly a large one, seeing it closed the gap between Goku and he.

Goku gives the indication it works very similarly.
30 pound dumbbell - x100 gravity
Initially it's Goku's max, he can walk under it. Over (t) time, he's able to make it a regular exercise--not too much, not too little. I don't recall how long it took Goku to master x100, so I'll just assume a few days because it's arbitrary for this example. t = 36 hours. After 36 hours, Goku was able to basically make x100 gravity feel like nothing, probably x1.2 times the normal gravity. In other words, 1.2 is an arbitrary number to represent a variable that's incredibly low in reverence to a multiplier. The training then becomes insufficient in comparison to it's initial usage. It works the exact same way with weights, just not with such ridiculous times Goku has... Saiyans, pft.
t = 0 - 30lbs is strenuous.
t = 15 30lbs isn't too light, isn't too heavy.
t = 36 30lbs feels like nothing at all.

[TheMightyOzaru]

My definition's a little different. "A belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." How am I using theory? "A set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based." The two in the context I'm referring to are completely different. I suppose based was poor wording on my behalf--I should have used sufficient grounds in its place, as that would have solified my argument.

Majin Vegeta - A
Dabra - B
Adult Gohan - C
SP Cell - D
Vegeta - E

A > D <=> B > E > C
Majin Vegeta was obviously the strongest out of this lot, I'm sure everyone agrees there. Daizenshuu 7 states Cell and Dabra have equal battle powers, so they're even. Adult Gohan is a lot weaker, so his base battle power faded, whereas Vegeta's improved, enough at least that gave Vegeta room to boast above him. However, given Piccolo's sentiments that Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Gohan were hard to tell from one another in power, the gap couldn't be all that big. The Majin boost was clearly a large one, seeing it closed the gap between Goku and he.

Goku gives the indication it works very similarly.
30 pound dumbbell - x100 gravity
Initially it's Goku's max, he can walk under it. Over (t) time, he's able to make it a regular exercise--not too much, not too little. I don't recall how long it took Goku to master x100, so I'll just assume a few days because it's arbitrary for this example. t = 36 hours. After 36 hours, Goku was able to basically make x100 gravity feel like nothing, probably x1.2 times the normal gravity. In other words, 1.2 is an arbitrary number to represent a variable that's incredibly low in reverence to a multiplier. The training then becomes insufficient in comparison to it's initial usage. It works the exact same way with weights, just not with such ridiculous times Goku has... Saiyans, pft.
t = 0 - 30lbs is strenuous.
t = 15 30lbs isn't too light, isn't too heavy.
t = 36 30lbs feels like nothing at all.

Well I don't take your definition of opinion into account. That aside though, I believe Piccolo was comparing Majin Vegeta to Gohan's Kamehameha not SSJ2 Kid Gohan initially. Plus Vegeta stated SSJ2 Goku was stronger than the Gohan that beat Cell. Then there is Gohan whom had a hard time telling the difference between SSJ Trunks and the SSJ Goku that fought Frieza even though Trunks is clearly a good deal more powerful. Ki and strength do not correlate. There is nothing suggesting Ki does work that way at all. That would again be your opinion. Ki is "spirit" not a muscle. It is increased in different manners. Weight lifting rules for example don't necessarily apply to Ki.

[Kaboom]

Y'know, I think you two should make a new topic in the In-Universe section if you want to continue this conversation. This thread is supposed to be for the sharing and "artistic" critique of power level lists. Not really a thread for debate on power growth.

[Perfect]

I'll make my leave with this then, Kaboom.

Yes SSJ2 Goku was above SSJ2 Gohan was against Cell, and I'd say he's about equal to Majin Vegeta. Hence they have a similar battle power that's greater than SSJ2 Gohan's battle power.

It's not an opinion though here, because I never said it operates as a muscle, I said it operates on the same principle is all. Whether or not ki and strength correlate is irrelevant, it was the principle being explained, by which it does operate in accordance to the same mannerism as explained above.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'll make my leave with this then, Kaboom.

Yes SSJ2 Goku was above SSJ2 Gohan was against Cell, and I'd say he's about equal to Majin Vegeta. Hence they have a similar battle power that's greater than SSJ2 Gohan's battle power.

It's not an opinion though here, because I never said it operates as a muscle, I said it operates on the same principle is all. Whether or not ki and strength correlate is irrelevant, it was the principle being explained, by which it does operate in accordance to the same mannerism as explained above.

We don't know how Ki operates at all. I think it just keeps growing if you train and nothing contradicts that other that limits which are constantly broken so I don't really factor those. Especially since there is probably more effort put in when jumping over limits.

[Kaboom]

In order to help get the thread back on track, and since it's been soooo long, I figure I'll re-post my series power levels before I finally continue my movies ones. They include some tweaks from last time to the Cell arc, so I'll dig up and likewise alter the Cell-era movies numbers to reflect them (and link to them afterwards). I've even gone back and filled in some blanks for the Saiyan-Freeza arc too, so I may as well post them. Any pre-Trunks levels I've come up with myself will be italicized and have notes.

THE FAMILY REUNION WHERE YOUR JERK BROTHER BRINGS HIS RUDE FRIENDS

Raditz - 1500

Son Goku - 334

• Unweighted - 416
  • Kamehameha - 924+

Piccolo - 322

• Unweighted - 408
  • Makankosappo #1 - 1330
    Makankosappo #2 - 1,480

Son Gohan - 1

• Upset - 710
  • Angry - 1307

Muten Roshi - 139
Kuririn - 206
Tenshinhan - 250
Yamcha - 177

• //INSERT ONE-YEAR TIME SKIP HERE//

Piccolo - 1220

• Full Power - 3500

Son Gohan - 981

• Angry Masenko - 2800
  • Oozaru - 5,000

• {Gohan was considerably beaten up by the time he transformed in this fight, but his power was still way more than also-beat-up Vegeta could handle. Having Gohan around 500 seems almost too generous, even.}

Chaozu - 610
Yamcha - 1480
Tenshinhan - 1830
Yajirobe - 970
Kuririn - 1083

• Full Power - 1770

Kami - 220
Mr. Popo - 1030

• {Before anybody says anything, I prefer to think these PLs apply only to these two in the Saiyan arc. Kami has become considerably weaker because he's old and hasn't had anything to train for in years, and Popo's considerably stronger from training with all the maggots. Back during the King Piccolo fiasco they can be whatever you want.}

Saibaimen ~ 1200
Nappa - 4000

• {Yes, 4000 works fine for Nappa. Deal with it.}

Vegeta - 18,000

• Oozaru - 80,000
  • Battered & Worn-Out: 4000

• {Same concept as with Gohan above. Vegeta had gotten the stuffing beaten out of him over the course of the fight, but he was still better off than he'd left everyone else... Until that whole 'giant monkey Gohan lands on him' thing.}

Son Goku - 8000

• (Suppressed - 5000)
  • Kaio-Ken/x2 - 16,000
    Kaio-Ken x3- 24,000
    Kaio-Ken x4- 32,000

THE TOTALLY RELAXING AND UNEVENTFUL TRIP TO PLANET NAMEK

Son Gohan - 1200

• Vs Gurd - 12,000

Kuririn - 1800

• Vs Gurd - 13,000

Vegeta - 24,000

• Vs Zarbon, Recoome - 30,000

Kwi - 18,000
Dodoria - 22,000
Zarbon - 23,000

• Transformed - 30,000

Gurd - 8000
Recoome - 45,000
Butta - 43,000
Jheese - 42,000
Captain Ginyu - 120,000

• In Goku's body - 23,000

• {The actual power levels for the Ginyu Force are 100% conjecture. Recoome was a powerhouse who shrugged off every big attack Vegeta threw at him with only superficial damage, and Butta and Jheese were noted to have more-or-less the same power level as him. Gurd, on the other hand, was a "weakling" whom Kuririn and Gohan would have totally spanked if not for his freaky time-stop and telekinesis powers.}

Son Goku - 90,000

• (Suppressed - 5000)
  • Kaio-Ken - 180,000

A PLEASANT DAY OUT WITH MISTER FREEZA

Vegeta - 250,000

• "Super Saiyan" - 2,200,000

Piccolo - 30,000

• Merged with Nail - 1,500,000

Son Gohan - 200,000

• Healing Boost - 300,000
  • Angry - Lots more.

Kuririn - 75,000

• {- Vegeta's "Super Saiyan" power is incredibly more than he had before, and he thinks it will let him go head-to-head with whatever Freeza's final transformation will yield. He's wrong.
  - Piccolo's exact levels before and after his merger are good guesses; beforehand, he was strong enough to impress Nail, and afterwards, he could tango with "over one million" Freeza.
  - Gohan's level of 200,000 was, supposedly, from the start of the battle with Freeza, before Dende healed him and he got a power boost from it.}

Son Goku - 3,000,000

• Kaio-Ken - 6,000,000
  Kaio-Ken x10 - 30,000,000
  Kaio-Ken x20 - 60,000,000
  • Super Saiyan - 150,000,000

Freeza (First Form) - 530,000

• Second Form - 1,100,000
  Power-Up 1 - 1,300,000
  Power-Up 2 - 1,500,000
  • Third Form - 2,000,000
    • True Form - 4,000,000
      50% Power - 60,000,000
      100% Power - 120,000,000

• {Freeza does a LOT of powering up, but it's not too hard to figure out what works. First form has a stated maximum. Second form is "over one million" to start with before powering up twice (Vs Gohan, Vs Piccolo). Third form is too much for Piccolo to handle. True form is beyond Vegeta's expectations (and Freeza is possibly using his power in bursts here, too) and only Goku can stand up to it. Then we've got an official maximum for Freeza to work backwards from and find percentages. Easy-peasy. In a nutshell, having his power about double with each new transformation seems to work pretty well.}

______

Hmmm... Think I'll need to use a second post for my post-Freeza ones after all.

[Kaboom]

And here we go, Androids-to-Cell.

SUPER SAIYAN MULTIPLIERS
Super Saiyan - x50
Super Saiyan Grade 2 - x75
Super Saiyan Grade 3 - x125
Super Saiyan 2 - 100x

GREETINGS FROM THE WORLD OF TOMORROOOOW

Future Gohan - 2,700,000

• Super Saiyan - 140,000,000

Kid Trunks - 50,000

• Super Saiyan - 2,500,000

Future Android 17 - 250,000,000
Future Android 18 - 225,000,000

• //INSERT TWENTY-YEAR BACKWARD TIME TRAVEL HERE//

Mecha Freeza - 10,000,000

• Full Power - 140,000,000

King Cold - 90,000,000

Trunks - 3,400,000

• Super Saiyan - 170,000,000

Son Goku - 3,600,000

• Super Saiyan - 180,000,000

• //INSERT THREE-YEAR TIME SKIP HERE//

Son Goku - 5,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 250,000,000
  • Sick - 180,000,000
    Sick and Drained - 50,000,000

Vegeta - 5,500,000

• Super Saiyan - 275,000,000
  • Drained - 70,000,000

Trunks - 4,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 200,000,000

Piccolo - 150,000,000
Gohan - 4,000,000
Yamcha - 35,000
Tenshinhan - 75,000
Kuririn - 125,000

Android 19 - 30,000,000

• + Absorbed Ki - 60,000,000

Android 20 - 75,000,000

• + Absorbed Ki - 100,000,000

Android 18 - 350,000,000
Android 17 - 400,000,000
Android 16 - 500,000,000

AW HELL, IT'S CELL, OH WELL

Piccolo - 400,000,000

Imperfect Cell - 300,000,000

• Humans Absorbed - 500,000,000

Semi-Perfect Cell - 700,000,000

• Full Power - 900,000,000

Perfect Cell - 1,100,000,000

• Vs Vegeta & Trunks - 1,500,000,000

Vegeta - 16,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 800,000,000
  • Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 1,200,000,000

Trunks - 15,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 750,000,000
  • Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 1,125,000,000
    Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 1,900,000,000

• //INSERT TEN-DAY TIME SKIP HERE//

Mister Satan - 7

Perfect Cell - 3,000,000,000

• Full Power - 4,500,000,000
  Bulked Up - 6,000,000,000
  "Super Perfect" - 7,000,000,000

Cell Juniors - 2,000,000,000

Son Goku - 50,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 2,500,000,000
  Tired - 1,000,000,000

Son Gohan - 70,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 3,500,000,000
  • Super Saiyan 2 - 7,000,000,000
    Injured - 3,000,000,000

Vegeta - 36,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 1,800,000,000

Trunks - 32,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 1,600,000,000

Piccolo - 1,300,000,000

• //INSERT TWENTY-YEAR FORWARD TIME TRAVEL HERE//

Future Android 17 - 250,000,000
Future Android 18 - 225,000,000

Trunks - 32,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 1,600,000,000

• //INSERT THREE-YEAR TIMESKIP HERE//

Trunks - 70,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 3,500,000,000

Cell - 400,000,000

_____

This one ended up pretty long, too. Looks like one more post for the Majin Boo arc...

[Kaboom]

Finally, the Majin Boo arc!

Son Gohan - 60,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 3,000,000,000
  • Super Saiyan 2 - 6,000,000,000
    • Ultimate Gohan - 75,000,000,000

Vegeta - 70,000,000
Dormant power unleashed - 80,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 4,000,000,000
  • Super Saiyan 2 - 8,000,000,000

Son Goku - 80,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 4,000,000,000
  • Super Saiyan 2 - 8,000,000,000
    • Super Saiyan 3 - 32,000,000,000

Piccolo - 1,600,000,000
Kuririn - 125,000
Yamcha - 35,000
Tenshinhan - 100,000
Videl - 9

• After Gohan's training - 25

Son Goten - 14,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 700,000,000

Trunks - 16,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 800,000,000

Android 18 - 350,000,000

Kibito - 50,000,000
Kaioshin - 2,500,000,000

• Merged - 7,000,000,000

Pui Pui - 750,000
Yakon - 80,000,000
Dabra - 3,500,000,000

Gotenks - 120,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 6,000,000,000

Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) - 150,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 7,500,000,000
  • Super Saiyan 3 - 60,000,000,000

Fat Boo - 15,000,000,000

• Mister Boo - 6,000,000,000
  Pure Evil Boo - 9,000,000,000

Evil Boo - 60,000,000,000

• + Gotenks - 120,000,000,000
  + Gohan - 135,000,000,000
  + Piccolo - 65,000,000,000
  "Buff" Boo - 65,000,000,000

Pure Boo - 30,000,000,000

Vegetto - Infinity

• Super Saiyan - Infinity x 50

• //INSERT TEN-YEAR TIMESKIP HERE//

Son Goku - 100,000,000
Vegeta - 100,000,000
Son Goten - 12,000,000
Trunks - 13,000,000
Pan - 40,000
Oob - 25

• Pissed Off - 50,000,000

Mister Satan - 6
Mister Boo - 6,000,000,000
Killerno - 5
Mo Kekko - 6
Knock - 5
Otokosuki - 6
Captain Chicken - 500,000,000,000



______

Thaaaat's it! I'm'a try to get the "final" part of my movies list finished up in the next few days. I think I still have to re-watch a thing or two, but the primary remaining objective is to make them funny.

[Mjb1985]

Nice list. You have the Vegeta / Trunks > Cell Juniors?

[Kaboom]

Nice list. You have the Vegeta / Trunks > Cell Juniors?

Nope. I just gave Vegeta and Trunks a slight bump up from their power levels in my last list, and forgot to do the same for the Cell Juniors. Oopsie-doopsie.

[Saiga]

Interesting list, Kaboom. You know, you've got the same battle power for Boo Arc Goku and EoZ Goku/Vegeta as on my updated list (which I haven't uploaded yet). Though apart from that your scaling seems higher than mine. Maybe increasing my scaling a bit will make some of the battle powers easier to fit in. I think Kaioshin may be too high compared to Gohan and Dabra, though.

[TheMightyOzaru]

A little low for my taste but not bad.

[lash]

Son Goku - 80,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 4,000,000,000
  • Super Saiyan 2 - 8,000,000,000
    • Super Saiyan 3 - 32,000,000,000

Piccolo - 1,600,000,000

Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) - 150,000,000

• Super Saiyan - 7,500,000,000

Sorry to be condescending, but one would think that after all these years of being in this site and having numerous power level revisions, you'd finally be able to understand the fatal flaws in every single one of your lists...
Guess not.

[Kaboom]

Oh noooo, somebody doesn't approve of my made-up numbers! Whatever shall I doooo?

Yeah, I'm tired of debating and worrying about Gotenks with all his toonforce and non-feats and unfulfilled hype (especially with his worthless base form). So I just put him where I feel most comfortable with it and call it a day. The world ain't going to explode from it. Same for Piccolo. Deal with it.

[Herms]

Oh noooo, somebody doesn't approve of my made-up numbers! Whatever shall I doooo?

Well, you are a moderator. Preferably your response to a condescending comment should be less condescending than the comment you're responding to.

[Kaboom]

Perhaps you're right. But I'm more genuinely amused than anything else. The harassment about Gotenks (or any of my "flawed" numbers) has stopped being annoying to me and at this point is just... funny.

[lash]

Oh noooo, somebody doesn't approve of my made-up numbers! Whatever shall I doooo?

Yeah, I'm tired of debating and worrying about Gotenks with all his toonforce and non-feats and unfulfilled hype (especially with his worthless base form). So I just put him where I feel most comfortable with it and call it a day. The world ain't going to explode from it. Same for Piccolo. Deal with it.

Normally individuals post their work(assuming its not unserious) for the public for feedback, future revision, and perhaps a general comparison to others. With the criticism they receive, they rationalize and either establish a small but respectable argument about why they should conform to the feedback or stick with what they have. Some other people however, have been posting for years, ignoring feedback since before feedback was even a word. And firmly sticking to their preconceived beliefs, even when conflicting stronger evidence is promptly presented in their face. I’m not about to commence into a full blown argument on why your list …well in my opinion, quite frankly sucks, even with the silly Vegetto=infinity/Captain Chicken unfunny gag jokes you seem to like and keep reusing. Because even if my argument has enough backed up firepower to move heaven and earth, knowing how you are, it’s not going to matter. You're more than likely going to ignore it with your preset beliefs, and after a couple weeks/months just roll out another 'tweaked' list with essentially no beneficial alterations to it. Your attitude here just supports that:

But I'm more genuinely amused than anything else. The harassment about Gotenks (or any of my "flawed" numbers) has stopped being annoying to me and at this point is just... funny.

In my original post, I had just thought it was a little humorous, and worth pointing out how irregardless of time, you’re still good ole hardheaded Kaboom. But by all means carry on though; even though everything I said is true and probably something you should reflect on, don’t let me ruin your day.