Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

[hleV]

Your trying to apply logic to a fictional universe. Logically, infinite energy wouldn't exist, but it does in the manga. Logically, a pink bubblegum monster capable of transforming people into candy couldn't exist either. Toryama does what he wants, and fictional universes aren't strictly bound to real life universal laws.

Infinite energy is science. It exists in DB. I'm fine with that.
Boo is magic. Magic doesn't have to follow logic. I don't try to explain magic.

What's wrong with accepting the anime when it doesn't contradict the manga? Dragonball is a fictional universe, and the anime is an extension of that universe. So saying "no, because it's from the anime" is not a valid argument.

Fillers are not to be taken seriously, as they're not there to expand anything but to prolong the series, and quite a few of them outright contradict what's in the original. If you don't follow this logic, you're not to be taken seriously neither. By me, anyway. You'll never prove anything if you use anime as the base for your claims, unless it's a discussion about anime-exclusive things.

And I think that Kaio-Ken shows us what happens when you increase your strength beyond your limits without the benefit of training toughening your body up.

KK has never increased anyone's strength above one's limits, because Goku's limit is 400x his base, and he only went up to KKx20.

Firstly, there was no reason for Kaio to teach anyone KK. Secondly, I highly doubt that KK can be taught in a span of few days.

For Piccolo and Yamcha. Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu were there for a year.

So you deliberately ignored the first point.

Goku could have wasted Ginyu in seconds if he had tried. Instead he decided to play around.

That's quite in-character for Goku. He had saved his friends, why not have some fun? Freeza can wait. (He's not the smartest person in the world.)

Spopovitch and Yamu would have returned to Babidi eventually anyway. Why allow them to take Gohan's ki in the first place?

If they didn't suck out Gohan's energy, then it would be thousands of innocent people's energy.

[Kamiccolo9]

Your trying to apply logic to a fictional universe. Logically, infinite energy wouldn't exist, but it does in the manga. Logically, a pink bubblegum monster capable of transforming people into candy couldn't exist either. Toryama does what he wants, and fictional universes aren't strictly bound to real life universal laws.

Infinite energy is science. It exists in DB. I'm fine with that.
Boo is magic. Magic doesn't have to follow logic. I don't try to explain magic.

And yet you absolutely cannot accept a technique developed by a god being able to temporarily push someone beyond their limits?

What's wrong with accepting the anime when it doesn't contradict the manga? Dragonball is a fictional universe, and the anime is an extension of that universe. So saying "no, because it's from the anime" is not a valid argument.

Fillers are not to be taken seriously, as they're not there to expand anything but to prolong the series, and quite a few of them outright contradict what's in the original. If you don't follow this logic, you're not to be taken seriously neither. By me, anyway. You'll never prove anything if you use anime as the base for your claims, unless it's a discussion about anime-exclusive things.[/quote]
Considering that it's the only thing in any of the official material that has anything to do with what we are talking about, and doesn't contradict the manga, then I'll use it to support my argument if I want to. And it's not the base for my claims, it is a supporting detail. The base for my claims is that nothing, including the Daizenshuu Special Attacks Dictionary, and Goku's own comments on the attack, suggest that the user draws on his hidden potential. That is a "fact" that you made up.[/quote]

And I think that Kaio-Ken shows us what happens when you increase your strength beyond your limits without the benefit of training toughening your body up.

KK has never increased anyone's strength above one's limits, because Goku's limit is 400x his base, and he only went up to KKx20.
If Goku's limit was 400x his base, why would he be so injured by going only 4x his base? This is another problem I have with your theory. Nowhere else does drawing on your hidden potential run the chance of injuring you. Gohan jumped to over 1,000 times his base against Raditz, and emerged just fine from that.[/quote]

Firstly, there was no reason for Kaio to teach anyone KK. Secondly, I highly doubt that KK can be taught in a span of few days.

For Piccolo and Yamcha. Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu were there for a year.

So you deliberately ignored the first point.[/quote]
They asked for, and Kaio agreed to, tougher training than Goku.
And you didn't answer my point. Are you ignoring that?[/quote]

Spopovitch and Yamu would have returned to Babidi eventually anyway. Why allow them to take Gohan's ki in the first place?

If they didn't suck out Gohan's energy, then it would be thousands of innocent people's energy.[/quote]
Or Kaioshin could have attacked them, and they would have run, leading directly to Babidi's ship. It's not like Babidi was keeping a close eye on Spopovitch and Yamu anyway.

[Bussani]

Infinite energy is science. It exists in DB. I'm fine with that.
Boo is magic. Magic doesn't have to follow logic. I don't try to explain magic.

But spiritual energy absolutely must obey the laws of thermodynamics? That seems kind of weird to me.

I don't and never will believe that one can get power from nowhere.

I think they do that all the time, frankly. Where does any ki come from? How do they refill their ki after expending it all?

Putting that aside, I think there's another possibility other than "ki comes from nowhere" or "ki comes from hidden power": Kaio-ken could just tap into more of your available stamina reserve at once. Kind of like dumping all of your fuel into your engine in one go for a massive, engine-damaging burst of power.

[hleV]

And yet you absolutely cannot accept a technique developed by a god being able to temporarily push someone beyond their limits?

It doesn't matter by whom is it developed. It's a ki manipulation technique.

Considering that it's the only thing in any of the official material that has anything to do with what we are talking about, and doesn't contradict the manga, then I'll use it to support my argument if I want to. And it's not the base for my claims, it is a supporting detail

I don't accept that as an argument. You should get used to basing your claims on the manga and the manga-based guidebooks when it comes to in-universe discussions that aren't about anime-exclusive things. Otherwise you just waste your time, as not everyone accepts non-Toriyama-approved material.

The base for my claims is that nothing, including the Daizenshuu Special Attacks Dictionary, and Goku's own comments on the attack, suggest that the user draws on his hidden potential. That is a "fact" that you made up.

I didn't say it's a fact, I said it's illogical to get power from nowhere.

If Goku's limit was 400x his base, why would he be so injured by going only 4x his base? This is another problem I have with your theory. Nowhere else does drawing on your hidden potential run the chance of injuring you. Gohan jumped to over 1,000 times his base against Raditz, and emerged just fine from that.

Once Goku became stronger, KKx10 didn't injure him, and even after KKx20 his body was still in one piece. Same can go for normal ki techniques like Kamehameha. It doesn't amplify the user's power so much that they'd get injured. Kikoho, however, does injure Tenshinhan. And apparently it amplifies his power a ridiculous amount of times. Take that as you will. Gohan is a special case, his rage boosts seem to make him quite a bit more powerful without doing any damage. It still doesn't go above the 400x limit. (I wonder if Gohan's limit is even 400x, as he's not exactly a Saiyan but a hybrid.)

They asked for, and Kaio agreed to, tougher training than Goku.

Tougher training doesn't mean KK. I guess Kaio made them train their bodies rather than rely on a technique which damages them.

And you didn't answer my point. Are you ignoring that?

What point?

Or Kaioshin could have attacked them, and they would have run, leading directly to Babidi's ship. It's not like Babidi was keeping a close eye on Spopovitch and Yamu anyway.

... Really? How are you so sure that they would've ran directly to Babidi?

Infinite energy is science. It exists in DB. I'm fine with that.
Boo is magic. Magic doesn't have to follow logic. I don't try to explain magic.

But spiritual energy absolutely must obey the laws of thermodynamics? That seems kind of weird to me.

Either we explain it logically, or we don't explain it at all. I choose to explain it logically.

I don't and never will believe that one can get power from nowhere.

I think they do that all the time, frankly. Where does any ki come from? How do they refill their ki after expending it all?

Well, where does physical strength come from IRL? I'd say ki comes from renerating body cells, just like physical strength/toughness. I know ki is not the same thing as physical strength, but the logic behind it should be similar, even if it comes from somewhere else. Regarding ki refill after using it up, ki seems to be directly associated with the user (his body/spirit/whatever), that's why one gets back the same amount (unless Zenkai) of ki back once they recover. I also like the theory that the usage of ki doesn't actually make the ki gone, just unusable for a while.

The only ways I can think of that could make KK increase the user's power without drawing it from one's hidden power reserves are for it to either "rework" the current ki or force the usage of more ki you have.
The former would allow "Ultimate" Gohan to use KK: you take your current ki and do something to it, that it would get stronger (not multiply), making it a stronger ki rather than more of it. But that only works if ki itself can be altered (ki being good or evil doesn't really count), which I doubt.
The latter would mean that you use twice as much of your ki for KKx2, 3 times as much for KKx3 and etc. But it still doesn't seem to be the case, as it would mean that the user becomes less powerful everytime, and KKx4 being 32,000 disagrees with that.
However, Goku not using KK as a SS (outside that one filler, but even if we took that into account, it doesn't explain why it wasn't used later) kinda blows these theories away.

[Bussani]

Either we explain it logically, or we don't explain it at all. I choose to explain it logically.

Logically, spiritual energy comes from nowhere, because it's spiritual.

Well, where does physical strength come from IRL? I'd say ki comes from renerating body cells, just like physical strength/toughness.

But those cells have to get that energy from somewhere else. If they put out more energy than they take in then they're creating energy out of nowhere. So where do cells get ki from?

[hleV]

Environment? Food?.. Spirit? I don't really care and can't be bothered to think it up, I simply believe that it comes from somewhere, just like normal real life energy and strength comes from somewhere.

In DB, fighers need to train to become stronger. Both physically and in ki. SS/KK/energy attack power amplification are just ways to access more of otherwise inaccessible power that one possesses. That's my logic.

[Draken]

So, going back to logic, you have NO problem with the main characters with mass accelerating to MFTL speeds or teleportation?

[hleV]

Why would that be a problem? It clearly works in Dragon World.

[Draken]

Why would that be a problem? It clearly works in Dragon World.

It also clearly logically does not work in our world.

[hleV]

What makes you think I'm applying real world logic to DB? I'm applying logic in general. And the logic is that unless it's magic, nothing comes out of nowhere.

[Bando]

For the same reason that Gohan didn't use SSJ2 against Dabura, Toryama didn't want him to.

Your stance relies on a few plotholes to justify any illogical thing in the series. It doesn't work that way. Even fictional universes need some degree of logic to function.

Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 because he wasn't angry enough.

In-universe, maybe Goku didn't want to risk it? I mentioned in my last post that he could have attempted it in his training, but he could have possibly not attempted it due to his previous experiences with Kaio-Ken.
Also, with Kaio-Ken, you have to control all of the ki in your body.[/

3. Kaio-Ken [#SA2#KEN]
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

Using it while Super Saiyan would require you to have to control way more ki in order to keep the attack from harming you. That kind of concentration would be hard have in the middle of a fight.
In fact, looking at Goku's quote supports my idea even more. You control all of your ki, and make it more potent. Neither Goku nor the Daizenshuu mention anything about drawing on hidden potential.

Yet the Daizenshuu does not dismiss it either.

Goku did manage to control his Super Saiyan ki and make it much less of a strain. Compare Goku after he used Kaio-ken x4 in addition to a full power Kamehameha. His body was incredibly weak and strained and suffered from a simple slap to the back. Goku still managed to use Kaio-ken afterwards in this body. You don't think he'd logically be able to do the same in his much more relaxed MSSj form?

It's still too much power for his body to handle =/. He is basically using SSJ2's power in his SSJ Body. It's going to heavily stress him out. Plus FPSSJ still puts stress on his body. FPSSJ allowed him to have a rested state so he could power up without the bulging muscles.

Yet that strain would still not amount to anything close to Kaio-ken x20 in my honest opinion.

[Draken]

What makes you think I'm applying real world logic to DB? I'm applying logic in general. And the logic is that unless it's magic, nothing comes out of nowhere.

DB has Gods. Gods have the ability to create. Piccolo created clothes for Gohan out of nowhere. In theory Gods created the Universe out of nowhere. Applying logic to DB in general usually doesn't work.

[Bando]

And what if creation was really just reusing? Heck in Harry Potter transfiguration is just changing the object on a molecular level. Conjuration is summoning molecules to form the object.

Nevertheless if Kaioshins are really creating from nothingness, that's their special ability. Since when did Piccolo use his creation abilities to regenerate ki?

[Kamiccolo9]

And what if creation was really just reusing? Heck in Harry Potter transfiguration is just changing the object on a molecular level. Conjuration is summoning molecules to form the object.

Nevertheless if Kaioshins are really creating from nothingness, that's their special ability. Since when did Piccolo use his creation abilities to regenerate ki?

Dende is able to heal and restore the ki of people far stronger than he is. Same with Kibito. Where does that ki come from?

[hleV]

I've always felt like the gods had magical abilities of sort. Piccolo can make clothes, but it's nothing compared to Namekians creating Dragonballs. And Dragonballs/Shenlong/Porunga totally look like magic to me. So what's wrong with Piccolo, who's a Namekian, having some magical abilities as well? Then there's Potara. Wasn't it said that those earrings are somewhat magical?

Dende is able to heal and restore the ki of people far stronger than he is. Same with Kibito. Where does that ki come from?

I believe we've been through regenerating cells and all. If cells can regenerate, so can ki. Either Dende/Kibito just speed up that process, or it's magic. Simpe as that.

[Bando]

It comes from the person's own ki. There's an obvious science and logic in there that's not explained to us.

Just like people assume it comes out of nothingness why do people have such a problem when someone assumes it comes from somewhere?

[Kamiccolo9]

Restoration Power
First Appearance: Chapter 299
Category: ability
People: Kibito, Dende
Special Characteristics: A technique where one gives ki to bodies that have been injured or whose battle power has dropped from battle, restoring their power. With his dormant power released by Saichourou, Dende gathers the electricity-like ki from his entire body, and emits it from his hands. Kibito uses an ability he got from being born among the people of the Heavenly Realm, restoring people through a kiai that he sends into them (Daizenshuu 4, p. 50)

It specifically says he gives ki. He doesn't use their own. Since the people he's healing are far stronger than Dende is, where does the ki come from?
And it's said to be an ability. Nothing is mentioned about magic.

[Bando]

It comes from the person's own ki. There's an obvious science and logic in there that's not explained to us.

Just like people assume it comes out of nothingness why do people have such a problem when someone assumes it comes from somewhere?

Still sounds like he's giving his own ki to me. This isn't sorcery like Boo's healing arts.

[Kamiccolo9]

It comes from the person's own ki. There's an obvious science and logic in there that's not explained to us.

Just like people assume it comes out of nothingness why do people have such a problem when someone assumes it comes from somewhere?

Still sounds like he's giving his own ki to me.

Dende healed Ultimate Gohan. If Gohan was at the limit of his potential, how would Dende be able to use Gohan's own ki to heal him if he had no hidden ki to draw upon? He brought Gohan back to full strength.
And you didn't answer my question. The definition specifically says that Dende gives his own ki. But when he's healing someone who is much stronger than he is, like Gohan, where does the extra ki come from?

[hleV]

It specifically says he gives ki. He doesn't use their own. Since the people he's healing are far stronger than Dende is, where does the ki come from?
And it's said to be an ability. Nothing is mentioned about magic.

It's not a ki ability. It's not science. What else is there? Magic. There you go. You may call it Namek Ability if you want, but from the reader/watcher's point of view it's still magic.