"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[Kakashi]

I'm specifically talking about posting style here. Don't make things worse with absurdly childish posts. These discussions are constantly on thin-ice enough as it is. I have absolutely no desire to keep tossing out account warnings and temporary bans, but if that's what's essentially being asked of me, I guess I can comply. I'd rather not, though, so... please stop?

Why don't you just ban the thread?

[VegettoEX]

Why don't you just ban the thread?

I don't even know what this means. Do you mean "LOCK" the thread? As in, close it so no-one can continue discussing?

That's a last-ditch effort that itself is pretty childish and I hate having to ever dish out. There are plenty of people willing to discuss things properly with each other, and it's a shame to let bad apples spoil the fun for everyone else. No need to toss out the baby with the bathwater.

[Hugo Boss]

When you mean Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others, you mean he didn't surpass Goku?

I'm kinda confused in this thread, as I always had Gotenks' powerlevel far superior to Goku's.

[Zantetsuken]

When you mean Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others, you mean he didn't surpassed Goku?

I'm kinda confused in this thread, as I always had Gotenks' powerlevel as far superior to Goku's.

That's what the arguement is about.

Some people believe that Gotenks as a SSJ is SSJ3 Goku Tier (making him about as powerful as Super Gogeta...) And most people who haven't ever been to this site believe the opposite.

[Darkprince410]

When you mean Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others, you mean he didn't surpassed Goku?

I'm kinda confused in this thread, as I always had Gotenks' powerlevel as far superior to Goku's.

That's what the arguement is about.

Some people believe that Gotenks as a SSJ is SSJ3 Goku Tier (making him about as powerful as Super Gogeta...) And most people who haven't ever been to this site believe the opposite.

No, even though Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin is Ssj3 Goku tier strength, if you go by what is shown in movie 12 and just assuming that Fusion works the same way for all individuals (nothing suggests otherwise), Ssj Gogeta is still stronger by a good bit. The boys are strong, but not as strong as their fathers are, but the fusion, being many times stronger than the boys are individually, closes that gap considerably.

A lot of people that aren't on this site tend to just follow the anime, likely having never read the manga or cared to read it. As such, they accept the filler dialogue and blatant contradictions expressed in the anime without question, resulting in them thinking that Ssj3 Goku is superior to Gotenks or Gohan. The manga though paints a very different picture, with Goku expressly admitting his inability to defeat an enemy that the boys were as strong/stronger than, and nothing actually putting Pure Buu on the pedestal that the anime did.

Ssj Gotenks, before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, was Ssj3 tier strength, and since the Daizenshuu entry doesn't establish forms or suggest any kind of transformation with Gotenks, the most logical conclusion is that the entry is there to indicate that Gotenks, in his base form, had increased his power so much that he was now above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus resulting in him surpassing Vegeta while still having not surpassed Goku entirely (since Gotenks' base would still be below Ssj3 Goku).

[Zantetsuken]

When you mean Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others, you mean he didn't surpassed Goku?

I'm kinda confused in this thread, as I always had Gotenks' powerlevel as far superior to Goku's.

That's what the arguement is about.

Some people believe that Gotenks as a SSJ is SSJ3 Goku Tier (making him about as powerful as Super Gogeta...) And most people who haven't ever been to this site believe the opposite.

No, even though Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin is Ssj3 Goku tier strength, if you go by what is shown in movie 12 and just assuming that Fusion works the same way for all individuals (nothing suggests otherwise), Ssj Gogeta is still stronger by a good bit. The boys are strong, but not as strong as their fathers are, but the fusion, being many times stronger than the boys are individually, closes that gap considerably.

A lot of people that aren't on this site tend to just follow the anime, likely having never read the manga or cared to read it. As such, they accept the filler dialogue and blatant contradictions expressed in the anime without question, resulting in them thinking that Ssj3 Goku is superior to Gotenks or Gohan. The manga though paints a very different picture, with Goku expressly admitting his inability to defeat an enemy that the boys were as strong/stronger than, and nothing actually putting Pure Buu on the pedestal that the anime did.

Ssj Gotenks, before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, was Ssj3 tier strength, and since the Daizenshuu entry doesn't establish forms or suggest any kind of transformation with Gotenks, the most logical conclusion is that the entry is there to indicate that Gotenks, in his base form, had increased his power so much that he was now above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus resulting in him surpassing Vegeta while still having not surpassed Goku entirely (since Gotenks' base would still be below Ssj3 Goku).

Gotenks was not SSJ3 tier strength (unless Goku was holding back considerably - which is indicated by Vegeta) but no. That would mean the daizenshuu is incorrect, and to be honest nothing indicates that is, except for weak fan theory. Your theories can ONLY be valid if they don't contradict what is explicated stated. In order for your theory to work, the math wouldn’t even come close to making sense!
SSJ3 Goku 1
SSJ Gotenks 1
SSJ3 Gotenks 8
Gohan 9
KidBuu (who was supposed to be 1 shot material for full power SSJ3 Goku) 1?
Yet Goku believes Both Gohan and Gotenks are needed to help fight him, and the Supreme Kai believes fusion is the best option to beat Buu. No one suggested bringing Gohan back when the universe and the afterlife are at stake? Come on.

And then you want us to believe that BASE Gotenks raised his power over 50times as much to be on par with Vegeta in SSJ2? That’s believable?

[Zantetsuken]

The Guidebooks state what they state - Goku is bar far in away the single strongest character in the Manga outside of Gohan/Gotenks Buu and Vegetto. Even the Anime/movies has SSJ3 Goku making fodder out Gohan and Gotenks. You're just wrong on this.

[TheGmGoken]

The Guidebooks state what they state - Goku is bar far in away the single strongest character in the Manga outside of Gohan/Gotenks Buu and Vegetto. Even the Anime/movies has SSJ3 Goku making fodder out Gohan and Gotenks. You're just wrong on this.

The anime and movies ALWAYS favor Goku.....

But this debate is going into circles.

*Gives reason why Goku is weaker*

Then you counter with "Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to help not fight.", "No one asked for Gohan or Gotenks", "The anime said *insert reason*" , or "Goku was small".

I'm just going have to say that this is a never ending circle and that we should all ignore who's the strongest and just enjoy the manga

[Darkprince410]

Gotenks was not SSJ3 tier strength (unless Goku was holding back considerably - which is indicated by Vegeta) but no. That would mean the daizenshuu is incorrect, and to be honest nothing indicates that is, except for weak fan theory. Your theories can ONLY be valid if they don't contradict what is explicated stated. In order for your theory to work, the math wouldn’t even come close to making sense!
SSJ3 Goku 1
SSJ Gotenks 1
SSJ3 Gotenks 8
Gohan 9
KidBuu (who was supposed to be 1 shot material for full power SSJ3 Goku) 1?
Yet Goku believes Both Gohan and Gotenks are needed to help fight him, and the Supreme Kai believes fusion is the best option to beat Buu. No one suggested bringing Gohan back when the universe and the afterlife are at stake? Come on.

And then you want us to believe that BASE Gotenks raised his power over 50times as much to be on par with Vegeta in SSJ2? That’s believable?

Ssj Gotenks being Ssj3 tier wouldn't make the Daizenshuu incorrect. It'd just make your interpretation of the Daizenshuu incorrect. The interpretation that myself and others believe in supports both the Daizenshuu entry and what is seen in the manga. Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to come fight him in place of himself (nor did he even say that they would both be fighting), not help him whatsoever, and Kaioushin's analysis of strength is faulty at best, since he was the one that thought Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta need to all gang up to fight enemies like Dabura, even after having seen Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin 2 only a brief time before. So to adhere to his opinion of them needing fusion to defeat Pure Buu (it being the only option), you should also feel that Ssj2 Goku (having seen it when he powered up to overload Yakon), Vegeta, and Ssj2 Gohan are all too weak to defeat Dabura on their own.

He wouldn't need to have increased his strength that considerably, since the boys were individually not that weak in comparison to their fathers, and that Gotenks was established to be many times stronger than the boys are, it wouldn't require anywhere near as big a boost as you're suggesting. A conservative 5-10x increase over the span of a couple weeks within the Room of Spirit and Time would be more than enough to push him past Ssj2 Vegeta while in base form.

The Guidebooks state what they state - Goku is bar far in away the single strongest character in the Manga outside of Gohan/Gotenks Buu and Vegetto. Even the Anime/movies has SSJ3 Goku making fodder out Gohan and Gotenks. You're just wrong on this.

The guide books also say that Gohan is stronger than any Super Saiya-jin 3 and that Buu lost strength when his absorptions were removed, so where do we go from there?

[Zantetsuken]

Gotenks was not SSJ3 tier strength (unless Goku was holding back considerably - which is indicated by Vegeta) but no. That would mean the daizenshuu is incorrect, and to be honest nothing indicates that is, except for weak fan theory. Your theories can ONLY be valid if they don't contradict what is explicated stated. In order for your theory to work, the math wouldn’t even come close to making sense!
SSJ3 Goku 1
SSJ Gotenks 1
SSJ3 Gotenks 8
Gohan 9
KidBuu (who was supposed to be 1 shot material for full power SSJ3 Goku) 1?
Yet Goku believes Both Gohan and Gotenks are needed to help fight him, and the Supreme Kai believes fusion is the best option to beat Buu. No one suggested bringing Gohan back when the universe and the afterlife are at stake? Come on.

And then you want us to believe that BASE Gotenks raised his power over 50times as much to be on par with Vegeta in SSJ2? That’s believable?

Ssj Gotenks being Ssj3 tier wouldn't make the Daizenshuu incorrect. It'd just make your interpretation of the Daizenshuu incorrect. The interpretation that myself and others believe in supports both the Daizenshuu entry and what is seen in the manga. Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to come fight him in place of himself (nor did he even say that they would both be fighting), not help him whatsoever, and Kaioushin's analysis of strength is faulty at best, since he was the one that thought Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta need to all gang up to fight enemies like Dabura, even after having seen Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin 2 only a brief time before. So to adhere to his opinion of them needing fusion to defeat Pure Buu (it being the only option), you should also feel that Ssj2 Goku (having seen it when he powered up to overload Yakon), Vegeta, and Ssj2 Gohan are all too weak to defeat Dabura on their own.

He wouldn't need to have increased his strength that considerably, since the boys were individually not that weak in comparison to their fathers, and that Gotenks was established to be many times stronger than the boys are, it wouldn't require anywhere near as big a boost as you're suggesting. A conservative 5-10x increase over the span of a couple weeks within the Room of Spirit and Time would be more than enough to push him past Ssj2 Vegeta while in base form.

The Guidebooks state what they state - Goku is bar far in away the single strongest character in the Manga outside of Gohan/Gotenks Buu and Vegetto. Even the Anime/movies has SSJ3 Goku making fodder out Gohan and Gotenks. You're just wrong on this.

The guide books also say that Gohan is stronger than any Super Saiya-jin 3 and that Buu lost strength when his absorptions were removed, so where do we go from there?

You're all over the place here, so let me attempt to break this down and respond to you.

"Ssj Gotenks being Ssj3 tier wouldn't make the Daizenshuu incorrect. It'd just make your interpretation of the Daizenshuu incorrect. The interpretation that myself and others believe in supports both the Daizenshuu entry and what is seen in the manga."
Well yes, it would absolutely be incorrect. There is no way Gotenks as a SSJ can be in a SSJ3 tier of power if the Daizenshuu is correct. Period. Either Gotenks was stronger than Vegeta (and Goku by extention) or he wasn't, and the Daizenshuu is pretty clear about the distinction. Furthermore, we don't actually see anything in the Managa to really hold such a theory. Herms pointed it out before, and I am too - Gotenks didn't actually accomplish anything before his time in the time chamber.

The daizenshuu confirms what is actually shown in the Manga- Gotenks has leveled up to SSJ3 and actually surpassed Vegeta (But not Goku)

"Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to come fight him in place of himself (nor did he even say that they would both be fighting), not help him whatsoever"
Yeah, again - Gohan is clearly stronger than Gotenks, even Goten and Trunks admit as much. Not to mention Gohan isn't limited for time like Gotenks is, so why would Goku suggest BOTH fighters come and beat a villian that by your own admission is supposedly weaker?

Of course that theory is wrong, the reader is told twice that Kidbuu is stronger than SuperBuu.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

There is no counter statement to prove this is untrue.



[b]"Kaioushin's analysis of strength is faulty at best, since he was the one that thought Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta need to all gang up to fight enemies like Dabura, even after having seen Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin 2 only a brief time before."[/b]
Gohan is easily the weakest of the SSJ2s by a large margin (If the Daizen is correct about Dabura being about Cell's level and Gohan using SSJ2, which I don't doubt) Vegeta and Goku are both confident that they can beat Dabura on their own. And Gohan's showing against Buu...or lack of, compared to what Vegeta was able to accomplish shows a WIDE delta in power between the two. In fact, Vegeta flat out states that while Gohan has stangnated and possibly weakend, him and Goku are actually stronger than Cell games Gohan.

And Piccolo has to be the WORST character to measure power. He was wrong about Kaioshinn (scared of a guy who isn't even SSJ tier?) Wrong/unsure about Gotenks pre-rosat and wrong about Gotenks post rosat (base Gotenks couldn't even hurt buu).

Finally, it was the Grand/Elder Kai who recommended fusion against Buu, not Kaioshinn.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.2
Elder Kaioshin: “…Hey…Give your Potara to Goku and Vegeta! If they merge again, then this should be an easy victory!”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P10.2
Context: as Goku and Vegeta prepare to fight pure Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “Fr-from the looks of it, they don’t intend to perform Fusion either…Shi-shit…! Saiyans are so troublesome…!”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.3
Context: as Goku and Vegeta play rock-paper-scissors to decide who fights Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-those dimwits! Th-they intend to fight one at a time?! They’re not gonna fight together?!”


Final answer - I don't even know what point you were trying to make. Goku is obviously superior to Gohan and Gotenks if you read the story and not try to make up things to fit what you want to believe.


"The guide books also say that Gohan is stronger than any Super Saiya-jin 3 and that Buu lost strength when his absorptions were removed, so where do we go from there?"
But it doesn't say that - and the second part of the statement is true. Gohan is stronger than A SSJ3, but it doesn't use the word "any." And Buu was weakend from Gohan/Gotenks Buu when his absorbtions where undone. But as I posted above, it clearly states he becomes stronger.

[Herms]

Grand Kaio/Dai-Kaiou/"Grand Kai" is the big bearded crazy hippy guy who only appears in filler (but is mentioned in the manga at one point).

Elder Kaioshin/Rou-Kaioushin/"Old Kai" is the wrinkly old purple guy who pops out of the Z Sword.

[Darkprince410]

Final answer - I don't even know what point you were trying to make. Goku is obviously superior to Gohan and Gotenks if you read the story and not try to make up things to fit what you want to believe.

1) Except Goku himself, knowing full well how Fusion works, believes that with the boys' strength, that Ssj Gotenks would do what Ssj2 Vegeta couldn't do (as well as what he "says" Ssj3 couldn't do either)

2) That Goku freely admits he and Vegeta can't fight an enemy that Ssj3 Gotenks was roughly equal to (and Gohan was stronger than), with no indication of size being a factor since he is saying this in regards to them leaving Buu's body.

3) That there is a significant power drop from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, indicated by Goku's dialogue.

And please don't be hypocritical. You say that we're not making things up to fit what we want to believe, but you're the one saying things like South Kaioushin Buu doesn't exist (when the manga clearly establishes that he does), disregarding clear bits of dialogue discrediting your argument (the aforementioned Goku admitting he couldn't beat Evil Buu one, for starters), and things like that.

Lastly, I'd like to ask, how much stronger do you think Goku is over Goten and Trunks. The manga would suggest that the boys, before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, near equal to Gohan, and not that far behind Vegeta. The only way for Goku to be stronger than Gotenks is if you believe he's several times stronger than the boys are, and there is nothing at all suggesting the gap is anywhere near that big. I'd be hard pressed to say he's even twice as strong as strong as Goten. I won't argue that he's stronger than Goten, but not the staggering level that you think he is.

[CaptainKatsura]

I always assumed that SSJ Gotenks was meant to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, because otherwise, why bother teaching the kids fusion?

[Zantetsuken]

Final answer - I don't even know what point you were trying to make. Goku is obviously superior to Gohan and Gotenks if you read the story and not try to make up things to fit what you want to believe.

1) Except Goku himself, knowing full well how Fusion works, believes that with the boys' strength, that Ssj Gotenks would do what Ssj2 Vegeta couldn't do (as well as what he "says" Ssj3 couldn't do either)

2) That Goku freely admits he and Vegeta can't fight an enemy that Ssj3 Gotenks was roughly equal to (and Gohan was stronger than), with no indication of size being a factor since he is saying this in regards to them leaving Buu's body.

3) That there is a significant power drop from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, indicated by Goku's dialogue.

And please don't be hypocritical. You say that we're not making things up to fit what we want to believe, but you're the one saying things like South Kaioushin Buu doesn't exist (when the manga clearly establishes that he does), disregarding clear bits of dialogue discrediting your argument (the aforementioned Goku admitting he couldn't beat Evil Buu one, for starters), and things like that.

Lastly, I'd like to ask, how much stronger do you think Goku is over Goten and Trunks. The manga would suggest that the boys, before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, near equal to Gohan, and not that far behind Vegeta. The only way for Goku to be stronger than Gotenks is if you believe he's several times stronger than the boys are, and there is nothing at all suggesting the gap is anywhere near that big. I'd be hard pressed to say he's even twice as strong as strong as Goten. I won't argue that he's stronger than Goten, but not the staggering level that you think he is.

1. Power isn't something that can be "measured" just by feeling it apparently. How do you multiply a feeling?
2. Err, that's not how the conversation went down exactly.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

what was the point of mentioning the size (and showing the exterior of buu when Goku fired the blast) if it didn't play a role. Regardless, this is later proven false as Goku fights a stronger verson of Buu - PureBuu!

3. There is NOT. It's pointed out twice, by Goku's comments and THEN Kaioshinns comments. 2 comments and Kaioshinns comment is after the transformation is complete. I don't know how many times I have to point that out to you.

And Goku is significanty stronger than the boys, by a wide margin judging by how unimpressed he was at their max power and how quickly 18 was able to dismantle both of them.

[Darkprince410]

Final answer - I don't even know what point you were trying to make. Goku is obviously superior to Gohan and Gotenks if you read the story and not try to make up things to fit what you want to believe.

1) Except Goku himself, knowing full well how Fusion works, believes that with the boys' strength, that Ssj Gotenks would do what Ssj2 Vegeta couldn't do (as well as what he "says" Ssj3 couldn't do either)

2) That Goku freely admits he and Vegeta can't fight an enemy that Ssj3 Gotenks was roughly equal to (and Gohan was stronger than), with no indication of size being a factor since he is saying this in regards to them leaving Buu's body.

3) That there is a significant power drop from Evil Buu to Pure Buu, indicated by Goku's dialogue.

And please don't be hypocritical. You say that we're not making things up to fit what we want to believe, but you're the one saying things like South Kaioushin Buu doesn't exist (when the manga clearly establishes that he does), disregarding clear bits of dialogue discrediting your argument (the aforementioned Goku admitting he couldn't beat Evil Buu one, for starters), and things like that.

Lastly, I'd like to ask, how much stronger do you think Goku is over Goten and Trunks. The manga would suggest that the boys, before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, near equal to Gohan, and not that far behind Vegeta. The only way for Goku to be stronger than Gotenks is if you believe he's several times stronger than the boys are, and there is nothing at all suggesting the gap is anywhere near that big. I'd be hard pressed to say he's even twice as strong as strong as Goten. I won't argue that he's stronger than Goten, but not the staggering level that you think he is.

1. Power isn't something that can be "measured" just by feeling it apparently. How do you multiply a feeling?
2. Err, that's not how the conversation went down exactly.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

what was the point of mentioning the size (and showing the exterior of buu when Goku fired the blast) if it didn't play a role. Regardless, this is later proven false as Goku fights a stronger verson of Buu - PureBuu!

3. There is NOT. It's pointed out twice, by Goku's comments and THEN Kaioshinns comments. 2 comments and Kaioshinns comment is after the transformation is complete. I don't know how many times I have to point that out to you.

And Goku is significanty stronger than the boys, by a wide margin judging by how unimpressed he was at their max power and how quickly 18 was able to dismantle both of them.

1) He wouldn't know exact values, but he'd still be able to accurately gauge strength. Goku has shown himself to be one of the most proficient members of the Z Senshi as far as sensing and analyzing ki, so there's no reason to assume that he'd put the safety of the world (not to mention the direct safety of his son) in the hands of a technique if he's not sure of the outcome. To assume that Gotenks isn't in the range that myself and others have suggested would mean that 1) Goku is a terrible senser and analyzer of battle powers, or 2) He doesn't actually give any concern towards his son, his wife, or Earth for that matter.

2) Except Pure Buu is weaker than Evil Buu. Goku's line has nothing to do with his size, since he establishes they have no chance after leaving his body. Furthermore, looking at Goku's reaction on his face after not being able to successfully blast a hole through Buu's head strongly suggests that he didn't even realize there was a drop in his strength due to his change in size, so any notion that he was taking that into account and assuming that he'd still be small when he left is unfounded.

3)

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Indication of the fact that, while they've dropped his strength considerably so far, it's not as low as what they're wanting it to be, and is something that Goku is continuing to strive to do.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Establishing that what they were striving to do before (i.e. weaken Evil Buu to the point that they could beat him without needing to fuse) has been completed. I've asked you this several times before, but why would Goku exclaim that they "did it!" if it's not meant to establish that their intended goal to weaken Buu? Any time that anyone ever exclaims "I did it!" or "We did it!", it's in regards to completing a goal or task they were striving for, and since we know that Goku's goal, that they weren't quite there yet with normal Evil Buu, was to weaken Buu to the point of them being able to handle him, there's no reason for him to have exclaimed "We did it!" unless Pure BUu was weaker than Evil Buu.

4) How does being unimpressed by an individual's strength equate to that person being significantly weaker. All that being unimpressed means is that the person sensing already knew how strong they were beforehand. Besides, Goku was quite impressed by how powerful both Goten and Trunks were at the Budokai, so I don't see where you're getting at there. As for #18 "dismantling" them, what does that even mean? She only really fought the two while they were in their base forms, and since even Goku is weaker than #18 while in his base form (as established by Battle of the Gods), their performance against her doesn't really say anything. Likewise, given that a weak ki blast from Ssj Trunks (after she learned who they were) scared her senseless, that strongly suggests that they were both stronger than she is.

For Goku to be stronger than Gotenks in the same form, Goku would need to be many times stronger than the boys are, and there's nothing in the manga supporting a gap anywhere near that big.

[Zantetsuken]

1) He wouldn't know exact values, but he'd still be able to accurately gauge strength. Goku has shown himself to be one of the most proficient members of the Z Senshi as far as sensing and analyzing ki, so there's no reason to assume that he'd put the safety of the world (not to mention the direct safety of his son) in the hands of a technique if he's not sure of the outcome. To assume that Gotenks isn't in the range that myself and others have suggested would mean that 1) Goku is a terrible senser and analyzer of battle powers, or 2) He doesn't actually give any concern towards his son, his wife, or Earth for that matter.

2) Except Pure Buu is weaker than Evil Buu. Goku's line has nothing to do with his size, since he establishes they have no chance after leaving his body. Furthermore, looking at Goku's reaction on his face after not being able to successfully blast a hole through Buu's head strongly suggests that he didn't even realize there was a drop in his strength due to his change in size, so any notion that he was taking that into account and assuming that he'd still be small when he left is unfounded.

3)

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Indication of the fact that, while they've dropped his strength considerably so far, it's not as low as what they're wanting it to be, and is something that Goku is continuing to strive to do.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Establishing that what they were striving to do before (i.e. weaken Evil Buu to the point that they could beat him without needing to fuse) has been completed. I've asked you this several times before, but why would Goku exclaim that they "did it!" if it's not meant to establish that their intended goal to weaken Buu? Any time that anyone ever exclaims "I did it!" or "We did it!", it's in regards to completing a goal or task they were striving for, and since we know that Goku's goal, that they weren't quite there yet with normal Evil Buu, was to weaken Buu to the point of them being able to handle him, there's no reason for him to have exclaimed "We did it!" unless Pure BUu was weaker than Evil Buu.

4) How does being unimpressed by an individual's strength equate to that person being significantly weaker. All that being unimpressed means is that the person sensing already knew how strong they were beforehand. Besides, Goku was quite impressed by how powerful both Goten and Trunks were at the Budokai, so I don't see where you're getting at there. As for #18 "dismantling" them, what does that even mean? She only really fought the two while they were in their base forms, and since even Goku is weaker than #18 while in his base form (as established by Battle of the Gods), their performance against her doesn't really say anything. Likewise, given that a weak ki blast from Ssj Trunks (after she learned who they were) scared her senseless, that strongly suggests that they were both stronger than she is.

For Goku to be stronger than Gotenks in the same form, Goku would need to be many times stronger than the boys are, and there's nothing in the manga supporting a gap anywhere near that big.

1. What? Where do you come up with this stuff? Vegeta saw and felt SSJ3 from otherworld and yet comments "You're stronger than I imagined" since when has anyone in DBZ ever been able to accurately guess how strong someone would be after a transformation?

2. He's not weaker and even Herms had to come in and correct you last time you to pull this shit. Give it up, you have nothing to prove to the contrary of 2 definative statements from 2 different characters. (and I'm not even counting the later statements made by Goku and Vegeta). Everything else you said is just a guess on your part, which is no better than mine.

3. I well aware of what it says, posting it over and over won't change it. Again - Kaioshinn actually points out he got stronger. Herms said that Vegeta's quote has NOTHING TO DO WITH POWER. Enough with that shit already.

4. I gave you multiple reasons why the boys are weaker than Goku and here you are saying "how did you come to that conclusion" Well, they have no feats and are shown to be taken by someone who isn't even half of SSJ Goku's power. I'd say that puts them a few levels below his power. Goku's reaction to their max power, and Vegeta's 1 shot knockout (in comparison to what he did to Goku who wasn't looking) shows me they are fodder. Probably Piccolo tier, but under the Adult SSJ levels.

[Darkprince410]

1) Because when Vegeta saw Goku and sensed him fighting, it was during Goku's fight with Fat Buu, when we're made perfectly aware of the fact that he wasn't going all out. As such, Goku fighting Pure Buu at full power is the first time he's sensed Goku's full Ssj3 strength. Goku was confidently aware of how powerful Gohan would be upon reaching Super Saiya-jin 2 during his fight with Cell, and after seeing the Metamorese fuse in the afterlife in order to learn how the fusion works, don't you think that he'd be able to make at least a semi-good estimate of Gotenks strength?

If 1 + 1 = 10 with fusion, then Goku would likely assume that 2 + 2 = 20 in the same context, not 400 or something.

2) For starters, I don't recall Herms ever correcting me on anything of the sort. I already explained full well the context of Kaioushin's statement in relation to Buu's history (you dismiss it as fan theory even though it's established through the manga) and who else makes any comment about Pure Buu being stronger than Evil Buu? Taken in the context of what's said in the manga in relation to everything else established in the manga, no one at any point says that Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu, whereas there is precedent for Evil Buu being stronger than Pure Buu given the dialogue you dismiss repeatedly.

3) I'm not doing by Vegeta's comment at all, since I know it's in relation to size. I'm going by Goku's statements there and his statements alone. I will continue posting it over and over because the evidence is pretty clear to the point.

4) No you didn't. You gave two reasons that both can be clearly countered. What do you mean by taken by someone who isn't even half of Ssj Goku's battle power? If you're meaning #18, then again, they never fought her for more than a second or so while they were Super Saiya-jin, and a restrained blast from Trunks was enough to make her absolutely freak. There is nothing at all suggesting that she would have been able to beat either of them, and plenty to say that they, as Super Saiya-jin, were stronger than she was.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

So between those three quotes, you have evidence that, if they do it right (i.e. not use full strength), they wouldn't kill her, and even then, her reaction to the attack was of panic over how extremely powerful they. That doesn't sound like someone that can handle them much at all, let alone as readily as you suggest.

Goku not acting surprised again doesn't mean anything, other than that they were as strong as he judged them to be given what he saw at the Budokai, but that doesn't mean that they're vastly weaker to him or anything.

Likewise, if you're meaning Vegeta knocking them out before sacrificing himself to destroy Buu, that's Vegeta putting a good bit of force into a blow to knock out someone equal to him in terms of strength versus knocking out two individuals that aren't even half his battle power (since he's still a Super Saiya-jin 2 while they were just Super Saiya-jin). Again, I'm not saying that the boys are equal to their dads, but there is nothing to suggest that there is this 3x, 4x, 5x or whatever gap that you're suggesting is there between Goku and Goten. Given what we see and what we're shown in the manga and the Daizenshuu, I'd be hard pressed to put more than a 2x gap between Goku and Goten/Trunks.

[Zephyr]

Forgive me for not plowing through these walls of text. But would I be correct in assuming that one of many possible interpretations of the "Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others" line is being passed off as some kind of accepted fact, here?

[Saiga]

Forgive me for not plowing through these walls of text. But would I be correct in assuming that one of many possible interpretations of the "Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others" line is being passed off as some kind of accepted fact, here?

Do you mean that you're asking if everyone agrees on the interpretation? Because if so, nah, lots of people are arguing what that means. I think the most popular interpretation, aside from dismissing it entirely, is that base Gotenks surpassed Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. Which I don't believe myself, but that's what I seem to be getting from the other posts.

[Darkprince410]

Forgive me for not plowing through these walls of text. But would I be correct in assuming that one of many possible interpretations of the "Gotenks surpasses Vegeta and the others" line is being passed off as some kind of accepted fact, here?

Do you mean that you're asking if everyone agrees on the interpretation? Because if so, nah, lots of people are arguing what that means. I think the most popular interpretation, aside from dismissing it entirely, is that base Gotenks surpassed Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. Which I don't believe myself, but that's what I seem to be getting from the other posts.

I can't speak for everyone else since I don't know where they stand, but that's basically in line with what I believe since it's the best interpretation of the Daizenshuu entry given what we see in the manga. Even if you don't put Ssj Gotenks as stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, there's nothing to suggest that he'd be weaker than Ssj2 Vegeta, given that Goku, knowing full well that Ssj2 Vegeta failed utterly in trying to destroy Buu, was certain that Gotenks wouldn't lose. As such, Ssj Gotenks would have to be stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, and therefore has already surpassed Vegeta in at least some regard.

Then we fast forward to when Piccolo witnesses Gotenks form within the Room of Spirit and Time, exclaiming with amazement as to how powerful they were in their base form and thinking they had a chance as is. Obviously this wasn't the case, but for him, in his base form, to be emitting Ssj2 levels of power would be cause for some degree of optimism over their chances.