Does anybody actually think that DBZ got better post-Namek?

[Hero 004]

I in-fact do think that the Dragon Ball Z manga and anime series get better after the character leave the planet Namek and return to Earth. The Trunks plot twist adds a lot to the mythology in my opinion. I enjoyed the transition from alien sci-fi to time travel and robot sci-fi.

[ABED]

Goku's battle power when he first arrives on Namek is around 180,000. Every source I've ever read says that.

[Kid Buu]

Goku's battle power when he first arrives on Namek is around 180,000. Every source I've ever read says that.

That's after the Kaioken

[ABED]

Goku's battle power when he first arrives on Namek is around 180,000. Every source I've ever read says that.

That's after the Kaioken

And... He wasn't using it as an attack, it was to boost his power quicker. Logically, it makes no sense that his base isn't 180k if Vegeta is so easily amazed by Goku's power yet he can take on Ginyu and Freeza.

And Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 aren't the same thing.

[Kid Buu]

And Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 aren't the same thing.

Huh?

Vegeta was also amazed by Goku's over 8000 power level in the Saiyan arc despite being more than twice that. Its more of being impressed how he managed to grow so much stronger over time then anything else.

[ABED]

And Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 aren't the same thing.

Huh?

Vegeta was also amazed by Goku's over 8000 power level in the Saiyan arc despite being more than twice that. Its more of being impressed how he managed to grow so much stronger over time then anything else.

Vegeta wasn't stronger than Goku, there's no way. There's nothing to support the claim that he was only 90k.

And Vegeta's reaction was different here. It wasn't shock that a low class fighter was stronger than he expected, it's that he was THE Super Saiyan, as in the one and only. Again, Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are two different attacks. I bring that up because you deduced the 90k (which doesn't make sense since the guides I've seen don't list the instantaneous boosts) because you assume the Kaio-ken doubled his power. However, Kaio-ken x2 and kaio-ken aren't the same. He wasn't using the double, so it's not 90k.

[penguintruth]

The Cell/Artificial Human arc has the best storytelling in the entire DB story. Increasingly complex (albeit at times a tad convoluted), some interesting new concepts, noteworthy twists, and some great combat. I like how Toriyama's time travel rules aren't the same as everyone else's, the concept of Cell, Piccolo's temporary return to prominence, the Room of Spirit and Time, and Gohan coming into his own. It's not exactly brilliant or groundbreaking, and it does continue most of the same trends that were used before, but it's easily some of the best material in the franchise.

[RandomGuy96]

And Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 aren't the same thing.

Huh?

Vegeta was also amazed by Goku's over 8000 power level in the Saiyan arc despite being more than twice that. Its more of being impressed how he managed to grow so much stronger over time then anything else.

Vegeta wasn't stronger than Goku, there's no way. There's nothing to support the claim that he was only 90k.

And Vegeta's reaction was different here. It wasn't shock that a low class fighter was stronger than he expected, it's that he was THE Super Saiyan, as in the one and only. Again, Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are two different attacks. I bring that up because you deduced the 90k (which doesn't make sense since the guides I've seen don't list the instantaneous boosts) because you assume the Kaio-ken doubled his power. However, Kaio-ken x2 and kaio-ken aren't the same. He wasn't using the double, so it's not 90k.

Even if if he was 180,000, Vegeta would still be considerably stronger than him. So there'd be no difference. Daizenshuu has him at 90,000 and he had to use kaio-ken to get to 180,000. In the manga, whenever the move is just called "kaio-ken" (no multiplier), it doubles strength. Kaio-ken x2 and kaio-ken are the same thing.

And... He wasn't using it as an attack, it was to boost his power quicker

What does this even mean?

[Kid Buu]

See, I've never heard of anything saying KK and KKx2 are difference attacks.

As soon as Goku's starts to use the Kaioken, his power level starts at 90,000:

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.6-7
Context: as Goku starts using the Kaio-Ken
Ginyu: "Ni... 90,000...?! 100,000... 110,000... I'm... impossible... it can't be... It's st... still rising...!"

Even prior, Vegeta thinks Goku and Ginyu are near power. 90k is certainly closer to 120k then 180k is.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P4.3
Vegeta: “Kukkukkuh, things are turning out well! Kakarot and Ginyu look to be about even in ability! If things go well they just might take each other out…!”

[ABED]

See, I've never heard of anything saying KK and KKx2 are difference attacks.

As soon as Goku's starts to use the Kaioken, his power level starts at 90,000:

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.6-7
Context: as Goku starts using the Kaio-Ken
Ginyu: "Ni... 90,000...?! 100,000... 110,000... I'm... impossible... it can't be... It's st... still rising...!"

Even prior, Vegeta thinks Goku and Ginyu are near power. 90k is certainly closer to 120k then 180k is.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P4.3
Vegeta: “Kukkukkuh, things are turning out well! Kakarot and Ginyu look to be about even in ability! If things go well they just might take each other out…!”

Why would Goku use Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 if they weren't two different attacks? It would be redundant. Your quote proves nothing because Goku's power and Ginyu's power were steadily rising throughout the battle. If Goku wasn't 180k base then his Kaio-ken power up wouldn't have meant much beyond showing off.

This is one of the first times I've ever seen someone say his power was around 90k. Every site and source I've read has Goku at 180k. I don't see why they would list his Kaio-ken unless they assume readers can't do the math.

And it makes no sense to have Vegeta be stronger than Goku at that point. Vegeta got his ass handed to him by Ginyu's subordinate and then he's stronger than Ginyu and Goku who spent several days under intense gravity training?

Forget it, this is what bothers me about power levels, it's the huge leaps in logic.

[RandomGuy96]

And it makes no sense to have Vegeta be stronger than Goku at that point. Vegeta got his ass handed to him by Ginyu's subordinate and then he's stronger than Ginyu and Goku who spent several days under intense gravity training?

Nowhere near as bullshit as Goku surpassing an even stronger Vegeta + Nailccolo by getting one near death boost which inexplicably made him a few dozen times stronger.

[ABED]

And it makes no sense to have Vegeta be stronger than Goku at that point. Vegeta got his ass handed to him by Ginyu's subordinate and then he's stronger than Ginyu and Goku who spent several days under intense gravity training?

Nowhere near as bullshit as Goku surpassing an even stronger Vegeta + Nailccolo by getting one near death boost which inexplicably made him a few dozen times stronger.

Well, if Vegeta is capable of such huge illogical leaps, surely Goku is capable of the same. While we're at it, it never made that much sense to me that Piccolo would get such a huge jump in strength after merging with Kami considering how weak Kami was in comparison to Piccolo at the time of the Cell arc.

[rereboy]

There's nothing to support the claim that he was only 90k.

What? Goku uses Kaioken agaisnt Ginyu and Ginyu's scouter registers his rising power in the manga. The first power that it registered, while Goku was activating Kaioken, was 90.000, then 100.000, then 110.000, then 120.000, then 130.000, 140.000, 160.000 and finally stopped at 180.000.

Kaioken gives the user more power than the user has at base. So, AT BEST, Goku's base power when he fights Ginyu is 90.000, but he can increase it multiples times with Kaioken.

Vegeta is amazed at Goku's power because he had just proved to be overwhelmingly superior to the guys that had completely humiliated him a few moments ago. Not to mention that Vegeta knows that Goku can use Kaioken to multiply his power and apparently he wasn't anything like that to beat those guys.

[RandomGuy96]

And it makes no sense to have Vegeta be stronger than Goku at that point. Vegeta got his ass handed to him by Ginyu's subordinate and then he's stronger than Ginyu and Goku who spent several days under intense gravity training?

Nowhere near as bullshit as Goku surpassing an even stronger Vegeta + Nailccolo by getting one near death boost which inexplicably made him a few dozen times stronger.

Well, if Vegeta is capable of such huge illogical leaps, surely Goku is capable of the same. While we're at it, it never made that much sense to me that Piccolo would get such a huge jump in strength after merging with Kami considering how weak Kami was in comparison to Piccolo at the time of the Cell arc.

Uh huh. You know, I'm getting this "everything is bullshit unless Goku does it, because Goku is perfect" vibe from you.

[ABED]

I won't deny Goku is probably my favorite character but you inferred wrong. He's not perfect, but that's not what this is about. I'm saying that from a storytelling stand point, it doesn't make sense that Vegeta is stronger than Goku when he arrives on Namek. I have nothing against Vegeta being stronger than Goku at points but it lacks sense here. Goku goes through harsh heavy training for several days straight, but Vegeta is still stronger than him because he was beat up by a subordinate?

[RandomGuy96]

I won't deny Goku is probably my favorite character but you inferred wrong. He's not perfect, but that's not what this is about. I'm saying that from a storytelling stand point, it doesn't make sense that Vegeta is stronger than Goku when he arrives on Namek. I have nothing against Vegeta being stronger than Goku at points but it lacks sense here. Goku goes through harsh heavy training for several days straight, but Vegeta is still stronger than him because he was beat up by a subordinate?

Vegeta is not stronger than Goku when he arrives on Namek. He's only stronger after eating the senzu and becoming strong enough to take on first form Freeza (so 450,000-ish compared to Goku's 90,000). Goku being 90,000 or 180,000 wouldn't change that; he'd still end up massively below Vegeta even if he were actually 270,000. And besides, Goku would still be able to effortlessly crush Vegeta by using kaio-ken x10 anyway, so does it even matter?

Yes, Goku trained for a week and became over eleven times as powerful. Then after that he gets ONE near death healing boost and goes from weaker than Ginyu to stronger than all lower forms of Freeza, almost three dozen times his previous strength. That's so much better than Vegeta getting ~15 times stronger from getting a worse beat down, right?

Both of the power-ups were bullshit. Goku getting eleven times stronger in one week was bullshit. Vegeta getting even stronger than that with one beatdown was also bullshit. Goku getting much, much stronger than THAT, almost three dozen times stronger, is again bullshit. Goku just has a higher rate of bullshit power-ups on average.

Yet whenever Goku gets a bullshit power-up, you say he deserved it then criticize other characters for doing the same thing: "rage boosts", dormant power, and near-death healing boosts in particular. You also try to rewrite the story to make Goku look better (i.e. "Goku didn't actually do this thing, even though we clearly saw him do it on the page, because Toriyama hadn't thought one chapter ahead and therefore nothing Goku did counts").

[Daimo-Rukiri]

The Namek-Freeza arc's are probably my favorite portion of the series, I just find that they're more exciting than later arcs mainly because the villains were a little bland in my opinion.
The Boo ark was alright but I found the cell portion pretty bland and tasteless.

[ABED]

I won't deny Goku is probably my favorite character but you inferred wrong. He's not perfect, but that's not what this is about. I'm saying that from a storytelling stand point, it doesn't make sense that Vegeta is stronger than Goku when he arrives on Namek. I have nothing against Vegeta being stronger than Goku at points but it lacks sense here. Goku goes through harsh heavy training for several days straight, but Vegeta is still stronger than him because he was beat up by a subordinate?

Vegeta is not stronger than Goku when he arrives on Namek. He's only stronger after eating the senzu and becoming strong enough to take on first form Freeza (so 450,000-ish compared to Goku's 90,000). Goku being 90,000 or 180,000 wouldn't change that; he'd still end up massively below Vegeta even if he were actually 270,000. And besides, Goku would still be able to effortlessly crush Vegeta by using kaio-ken x10 anyway, so does it even matter?

Yes, Goku trained for a week and became over eleven times as powerful. Then after that he gets ONE near death healing boost and goes from weaker than Ginyu to stronger than all lower forms of Freeza, almost three dozen times his previous strength. That's so much better than Vegeta getting ~15 times stronger from getting a worse beat down, right?

Both of the power-ups were bullshit. Goku getting eleven times stronger in one week was bullshit. Vegeta getting even stronger than that with one beatdown was also bullshit. Goku getting much, much stronger than THAT, almost three dozen times stronger, is again bullshit. Goku just has a higher rate of bullshit power-ups on average.

Yet whenever Goku gets a bullshit power-up, you say he deserved it then criticize other characters for doing the same thing: "rage boosts", dormant power, and near-death healing boosts in particular. You also try to rewrite the story to make Goku look better (i.e. "Goku didn't actually do this thing, even though we clearly saw him do it on the page, because Toriyama hadn't thought one chapter ahead and therefore nothing Goku did counts").

That's why power levels are so irritating, it leads to things like this. It makes no sense from a writing perspective to not have the hero of the story be stronger than Vegeta at that point, even before taking into account momentary power boosts like Kaio-ken. Forget about the math.

I get it, "shit" means you are REALLY irritated. It's a fantasy, so it makes sense to me and many others that Goku becomes insanely strong after heavy gravity training.

I've never rewritten the story.

Back to the actual thread topic, I don't think it got better. I enjoy the Cell arc but not the Buu arc, except for certain moments. The thing that bothers me about the Cell arc is that Freeza was so strong that he could destroy a planet without much effort, yet none of the fights going forward take that into account. It's hard for me to be impressed by Hell's Flash or the Big Bang Attack when Freeza could destroy a planet with his finger.

[Duo]

Abed, you're right insofar that the hero should not be suddenly outshined in this context of the series. Problem is, that just shows a weakness in the writing at that point (which I was trying to hit on a bit with my post last page). Nothing you say changes the fact multiple sources including the manga itself says Goku's base was 90,000 at that point.

I think his base was kept conservative at this point (kind of) because Toriyama was planning on him busting out Kaio-Ken x10 (Goku says he can probably do it before he lands on Namek), which would set him to nearly a million in power.

[Herms]

At this point, how about just making a seperate thread for all this power level talk? It's off-topic and is overwhelming the original conversation.