The Physics of DB

[Mr.Judge]

Akira Toriyama is pretty clear and knowledgeable whenever he portrays something in his manga.But he introduces inconsistency as soon as he attaches a number to the Strength need for doing such things.

Take Kuririn for example.
He is faster and stronger than athletes but still in human range.After Kame-Sennin training, he reaches superhuman level of strength yet he struggles to train with insignificant weights like 20kg.
Mercenary Tao Pai Pai casually lifts a stone/marble pillar and throws it across a huge distance , yet Goku training with some mere hundred kg worth of weighted clothing is not gonna help him perform these moves.

So Basically strength performed/shown and the number attached to it, is totally contradictory.

Except the strength and speed that Kuririn and Goku exhibit even early on aren't in human range. Humans can't throw cars, and if someone fell off that cliff like Goku did when he and Kuririn when rock hunting, he would've died.

May be I erred on that part when comparing him to top athletes.
But that is the Point what I'm trying to Convey.A measly 1 Ton of weighted clothing wont even cut it to What Db characters are shown performing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbYHCQRCsA

The above video shows one of the Strongest Man in World can Easily lift or train with 20 kg Turtle Shell But he will never he able to i)jump up-to clouds or ii)throw a stone pillar across 2300 km .
But Kuririn Still has trouble lifting Goku's Weighted Clothing yet can Jump High and may be even pull off the pillar throw.

[ABED]

I get that science is interesting but are you really criticizing DB for scientific inaccuracy?

[Polyphase Avatron]

If you want scientific accuracy in your fiction you should read this stuff.

DB (and most fantasy/sci-fi anime/manga/comics) don't try very hard to be accurate.

[Herms]

otherwise Buu arc base Goku wouldn't have trouble lifting 40 tons while flying, when he was able to push a boulder that looked heavier than that when he was training with Roshi

How heavy would you say that boulder is, anyway?

[Mr.Judge]

So you think Akira Toriyama drew DB manga To Scale?

Why do you feel the need to randomly capitalize words (even verbs)?

And the whole point is that the pictures aren't done to scale but one can try to analyse them as if they were. That's the same thing as this whole topic - the feats weren't meant by Toriyama to be considered as a coherent system. But we are doing precisely this (and in fact this makes this thread an "In-Universe" one) so we are in the same way free to consider the way stellar objects are drawn as another coherent system - and point the discrepancies between our world and the DB one.

I'm analyzing strength based showings in the manga.On its basis I can clearly conclude that numbers attached to those training weights have to be in excess of thousands to millions of tons and not meagre 100 kg or even 40 tons for that matter.

Are you asking for proof that DB Moon are not as same as real world because your line of reasoning are based upon Salagir calculations and observations?
The fictional world of Dragon ball is based on real world just like any another medium of fiction.
so DB Moon is equated to real Moon and DB Earth is equated to real Earth so on and so forth.

May be you assume DB cosmos as done by Salagir as most Logic-based Info on Interweb. But it is mostly based on incomplete info and uses erroneous calculation based on pixel scaling and Absolute Disregard for Artistic License.
According to him, Earth and moon are close in DB and the moon in DB is around 200 meters in diameter . Also you too seem to make your reasoning and arguments based on his fallacious argument.

Proof that DB universe is same as actual Universe And Herms even draws comparison to Star wars.

宇宙
The Universe
The endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.
[Par.] A "Cosmic Police Organization" exists in the universe. However, they lack the fighting ability to oppose Frieza and the Saiyans. (Daizenshuu 4, Page 72)

銀河
Galaxy
A gathering of local planets in the universe. Planets gather and form a nebula, and beyond that, a collection of gathered nebulae is called a galaxy. The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies. Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.

A detailed guide By Herms here on Kanzenshuu.
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the DB Galaxy


Proof of Distance of Moon and Earth in DB is Same as Real World. Check Out top-right part of image for the question and following Answer by Akira Toriyama.
Akira Toriyama Replies To Fan-letter as in Viz Volumes

[rereboy]

otherwise Buu arc base Goku wouldn't have trouble lifting 40 tons while flying, when he was able to push a boulder that looked heavier than that when he was training with Roshi

How heavy would you say that boulder is, anyway?

I have no idea but I've seen a boulder which weighs 2000 Kilograms (2 tons) and its surprisingly small. I mean, really small for that kind of weigh. A boulder like the one in the manga is way bigger than the one I saw. I would imagine it surpasses very easily the mentioned 40 tons mark.

For example this boulder right here weighs 340 tons:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... useum.html

And it looks comparable to the one that Goku pushed:



So 40 tons by the Buu saga should be like 40 grams.

[Mr.Judge]

otherwise Buu arc base Goku wouldn't have trouble lifting 40 tons while flying, when he was able to push a boulder that looked heavier than that when he was training with Roshi

How heavy would you say that boulder is, anyway?

i)Same Boulder Posted Above.
The piece, known as “Levitated Mass,” by Michael Heizer is a 340-ton solid granite boulder.

ii)Iceland volcano spat out 1,000-ton rock.

I like to make a case in the favor of 2nd Link. the boulder Goku pushed is around the same size as the one in the second link.

[The Monkey King]

otherwise Buu arc base Goku wouldn't have trouble lifting 40 tons while flying, when he was able to push a boulder that looked heavier than that when he was training with Roshi

How heavy would you say that boulder is, anyway?

I have no idea but I've seen a boulder who weighs 2000 Kilograms (2 tons) and its surprisingly small. I mean, really small for that kind of weigh. A boulder like the one in the manga is way bigger than the one I saw. I would imagine it surpasses very easily the mentioned 40 tons mark.

Not to mention Pre-Roshi training Kid Goku was able to pick up and crush smaller boulders:

Spoiler:

[rereboy]

Not to mention Pre-Roshi training Kid Goku was able to pick up and crush smaller boulders:

Spoiler:

Even a small boulder like that weighs something like 1 or 2 tons.

[Tzigi]

And the whole point is that the pictures aren't done to scale but one can try to analyse them as if they were. That's the same thing as this whole topic - the feats weren't meant by Toriyama to be considered as a coherent system. But we are doing precisely this (and in fact this makes this thread an "In-Universe" one) so we are in the same way free to consider the way stellar objects are drawn as another coherent system - and point the discrepancies between our world and the DB one.

I'm analyzing strength based showings in the manga.On its basis I can clearly conclude that numbers attached to those training weights have to be in excess of thousands to millions of tons and not meagre 100 kg or even 40 tons for that matter.

Are you asking for proof that DB Moon are not as same as real world because your line of reasoning are based upon Salagir calculations and observations?
The fictional world of Dragon ball is based on real world just like any another medium of fiction.
so DB Moon is equated to real Moon and DB Earth is equated to real Earth so on and so forth.

May be you assume DB cosmos as done by Salagir as most Logic-based Info on Interweb. But it is mostly based on incomplete info and uses erroneous calculation based on pixel scaling and Absolute Disregard for Artistic License.
According to him, Earth and moon are close in DB and the moon in DB is around 200 meters in diameter . Also you too seem to make your reasoning and arguments based on his fallacious argument.

Proof that DB universe is same as actual Universe And Herms even draws comparison to Star wars.

宇宙
The Universe
The endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the North Galaxy.
[Par.] A "Cosmic Police Organization" exists in the universe. However, they lack the fighting ability to oppose Freeza and the Saiyans. (Daizenshuu 4, Page 72)

銀河
Galaxy
A gathering of local planets in the universe. Planets gather and form a nebula, and beyond that, a collection of gathered nebulae is called a galaxy. The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies. Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.

A detailed guide By Herms here on Kanzenshuu.
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the DB Galaxy


Proof of Distance of Moon and Earth in DB is Same as Real World. Check Out top-right part of image for the question and following Answer by Akira Toriyama.
Akira Toriyama Replies To Fan-letter as in Viz Volumes

You didn't understand my point at all. I have no personal opinion on the matter of Moon's diameter and its distance from Earth in the DB-verse- and, frankly, I couldn't care less about it. I was pointing out two facts:
1. You are drawing incredibly far-fetched conclusions from a meager and not well thought-out amount of data. That is the same thing Salagir did (and that's why I was reminded of him and wrote about him in the first place). Only he understands the fact that one should not take such stuff seriously and you don't.
2. You are doing this in a the "General Franchise" part of the forum instead of "In-Universe" - so we can freely dicuss the show on a meta level. And this way we can approach the topic from different angles and maybe even try to follow the same line of reasoning as Salagir did: take every single bit of info seriously (suspend our disbelief and pretend the DB world was meant to be a coherent system) and try to imagine any solution to the discrepancies that emerge.

[Mr.Judge]

.

.

You didn't understand my point at all. I have no personal opinion on the matter of Moon's diameter and its distance from Earth in the DB-verse- and, frankly, I couldn't care less about it. I was pointing out two facts:
1. You are drawing incredibly far-fetched conclusions from a meager and not well thought-out amount of data. That is the same thing Salagir did (and that's why I was reminded of him and wrote about him in the first place). Only he understands the fact that one should not take such stuff seriously and you don't.
2. You are doing this in a the "General Franchise" part of the forum instead of "In-Universe" - so we can freely dicuss the show on a meta level. And this way we can approach the topic from different angles and maybe even try to follow the same line of reasoning as Salagir did: take every single bit of info seriously (suspend our disbelief and pretend the DB world was meant to be a coherent system) and try to imagine any solution to the discrepancies that emerge.

My Opinion is definitely not far-fetched and is totally based on logical conclusion based on simple observations unlike Salagir who used pixel-scaling on celestial objects.

So I'd like to give a good example which might help in getting across the point I'm trying to make.

i) Take Chapter 1 Toriko the character, he can lift 40 tons of weight while fishing.But still he doesn't have the muscle strength to cross countries with his leaps like Mercenary Tao Pai Pai or even throw pillar across 2300 km like him.
ii) Take Buu saga Goku, he was basically being weighed down by 40 tons and was strained.
iii) Take Kame-sennin Training Arc Kid Goku, he pushed a huge boulder(see images posted above) but was training with 20Kg Turtle Shell.

Did you notice any contradictory info in the above examples?

If you will notice the number attached to weight make these extra-ordinary tasks seems rather unimpressive in DB.

So the conclusion drawn is rather simple.
Either the strength of these characters is only 20 kg to 40 tons based on number given By Akira Toriyama.
OR
The strength of these Characters is way above Thousands of tons based on strength showings drawn in manga by Akira Toriyama.

Also you will notice a glaring inconsistency in relation to Kuririn between Kame-sennin Training Arc and 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi.

[ABED]

Mr. Judge, what's your goal with this conversation?

[Mr.Judge]

Mr. Judge, what's your goal with this conversation?

You made a post.

It's not purely strength, in DB, there's ki.

You are right in the sense that it is actually strength augmented by Ki when they hit their physical Limit.

I was basically making a case that even without Ki, DB characters in their base form are physical powerhouses. But Akira Toriyama representing Strength in DB with mere kg and some tons, in fact does injustice to the strength of DB characters.

Here is how Akira Toriyama describes Ki and its importance.

What are the requirements for becoming strong?
There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.

What is the key to winning in battle?
In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

Considering Kanzenshuu is most authoritative Dragon Ball resource.

I just wanted to point out on Kanzenshuu that Akira Toriyama is not good with numbers related to speed/weight/strength in DB. He definitely didn't care or may be forgot due to not keeping track and as a result that as he made some random numbers, he basically was creating inconsistencies with numbers he introduced in prior arc.

The Inconsistencies related to Speed in DB.

1. Mercenary Tao Pai Pai threw the pillar across 2300 km . This speed is calculated to around Sound Speed X 8[mach 8].
2. Adult Gohan mentioning he could cover 1000 km(distance between Satan City High school and his house) in 20 mins. Speed would be Sound Speed x 2.4509[mach 2.4509].
3. Goku completing the 1 Million Km Snake way in Less than 2 days. Around 27 hours based on careful analysis . Speed would be Sound Speed x 29 [mach 29].
4. Goku outrunning the explosion where he is trapped inside Imprisonment Ball (懲役ボール).The speed part here is speculation since the explosion speed is not given.Explosion like Nuclear Explosion mostly happen at Sound Speed X 100 atleast.

Adult Gohan Speed is the odd one out here.

Covering the entire planet's surface should not be a major problem to any Base Saiya-jins after the Namek or Frieza Saga.1000 km is comparatively small Or 20 mins is way too much time for even Son-Goku after his King Kaio Training.

Yet again, I can make a safe conclusion based on observation that Akira Toriyama doesn't care for the numbers he randomly introduces in the Manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I can make a safe conclusion based on observation that Akira Toriyama doesn't care for the numbers he randomly introduces in the Manga.

Toriyama himself said that we shouldn't take the numbers he throws seriously because he is a forgetful person.

[Mr.Judge]

I can make a safe conclusion based on observation that Akira Toriyama doesn't care for the numbers he randomly introduces in the Manga.

Toriyama himself said that we shouldn't take the numbers he throws seriously.

Can I get the Direct Quote Or Link(more helpful) where he mentions this as it would prove quite useful for further discussions?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Can I get the Direct Quote Or Link(more helpful) where he mentions this as it would prove quite useful for further discussions?

It from this page:

Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.

[Mr.Judge]

Can I get the Direct Quote Or Link(more helpful) where he mentions this as it would prove quite useful for further discussions?

It from this page:

Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.

Thanks.

[dbgtFO]

Can I get the Direct Quote Or Link(more helpful) where he mentions this as it would prove quite useful for further discussions?

It from this page:

Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.

In this case it's better to look at the translation of the interview itself instead of a summary with commentary.
I don't see, where Toriyama mentions we shouldn't take his numbers too seriously
He just says, that he felt like it should have been 10 times Goku's power and then that part of the interview ends.

[Kakarot88]

There is a difference from sustaining a weight all day versus and instant. There is a difference between accelerating and gaining momentum for a dash versus a durational run or long distances. These warriors fight in "bursts" (please see Goku versus Ginyu for a full explanation and Piccolo versus Gero for more clairty, as well as Roshi explaining running and strength to Goku and Kuririn early on, etc.).

Therefore, what is instantaneously possibly through a quick "burst of power" such as cutting Freeza who survided Namek's explosion in half as well as Gohan destroying Cell Juniors who have Freeza's Cells can be consistent when even held next to Goku struggling whilst flying to use the tons in the Boo arc, ie he had been training for more than a burst, he was doing a sustained lift.

The physics are only inconsistent in the sense that the jumps seem disproportionate to the effort in some instances. Many overlook the fact that Goku on his run to Kaio was not so much slow as that he lacked endurance to maintain the speed needed to get there quickly. He says how he has to run that flying took it out of him. Much of Dragon Ball discusses what they can do in an instant versus endurance.

[Mr.Judge]

There is a difference from sustaining a weight all day versus and instant. There is a difference between accelerating and gaining momentum for a dash versus a durational run or long distances. These warriors fight in "bursts" (please see Goku versus Ginyu for a full explanation and Piccolo versus Gero for more clairty, as well as Roshi explaining running and strength to Goku and Kuririn early on, etc.).

Therefore, what is instantaneously possibly through a quick "burst of power" such as cutting Freeza who survided Namek's explosion in half as well as Gohan destroying Cell Juniors who have Freeza's Cells can be consistent when even held next to Goku struggling whilst flying to use the tons in the Boo arc, ie he had been training for more than a burst, he was doing a sustained lift.

The physics are only inconsistent in the sense that the jumps seem disproportionate to the effort in some instances. Many overlook the fact that Goku on his run to Kaio was not so much slow as that he lacked endurance to maintain the speed needed to get there quickly. He says how he has to run that flying took it out of him. Much of Dragon Ball discusses what they can do in an instant versus endurance.

Your concept about Strength seems to be not quite clear.

What DB characters performs(examples I cited in previous post) come under the term
Explosive(Sprint/Running,Jumping upto clouds,Mercenary Tao Pai Pai throwing Pillar and leaping to board it),
Static(Son-Goku,Kuririn moving a huge Boulder),
Dynamic strength(weight training over long duration).

The Strength performed in DB require tremendous amount of muscle strength in the upwards of 1000 Tons(static) to 20000 Tons(explosive).But only the Dynamic Strength fails in DBZ because Akira Toriyama introduces inconsistencies as soon as he attaches a wrong Number to weight training.

Kid Goku and Kuririn would need to train(Dynamic) with at-least 200-300 Tons of Turtle shell during Kame-sennin training Arc to perform "Leaping upto Clouds"(Explosive) and "Pushing 1000 Tons boulder"(Static) .
May be Akira Toriyama is not knowledgeable enough about weights and thus thinks lifting just insignificant weights like 20 kg or 40 tons , Kid Goku and Kuririn can Jump upto Clouds.

A mere 20kg or even 40 tons of weight training(Dynamic) cannot build strength in the range of 1000 Tons (Static) to 20000 Tons(Explosive).

So I made an conclusion from the above observation/examples that weight numbers in DB is wrong.