Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[singsing]

From that standpoint, I think Beerus was either bluffing to see Goku's super Saiyan forms, or judging him by his appearance. In the 2008 special, Tarble said that abo and kado were as strong as Freeza. When Goten and trunks were fighting them, they were basically on par with them until abo and kado started pulling moves out of their asses. Now goku is much stronger than goten or trunks, so I think it seems likely that he could beat Freeza in base form. (Also, in the same special, goku said that Freeza, "in hindsight wasn't much of a foe.")

Tarble only knew of Freezas first form which was only 530k. He had no knowledge of any forms past the first form so Abo and Kado > First Form Freeza.

And Freeza really wasent much of a foe. Hes too polarized. Can barely beat Base Goku, gets one shot by SSJ Goku. So yeah, not much of a foe at all.

I think that if Freeza could "barely beat" base goku back then, I think base form goku from BoG could have stomped Freeza saga Freeza.

Goku isn't getting that much stronger in a few years of training. They've basically stagnated sans SSG. Also, one of the most knowledgeable and strongest fighters in the universe misjudging someone based on appearance? I don't see it. There's literally no reason for that statement to be in the film unless it was true.

[Regarder]

Yeah, I mean why was the statement added? Characters can be wrong, but usually the author is trying to point something out that is true if they don't then show that the character is mistaken. That's pretty standard story telling. If Beerus was wrong, it would just be random.

[MajinAsura]

Yeah, I mean why was the statement added? Characters can be wrong, but usually the author is trying to point something out that is true if they don't then show that the character is mistaken. That's pretty standard story telling. If Beerus was wrong, it would just be random.

That is a good point, although Beerus was shown examining Goku, trying to get a good look at him. He seemingly judged based on muscle size, appearance, etc.

[GogesusSSG]

I think Beerus judgement was made as a foreshadowing to Freeza's return and likely god level power-up in the upcoming movie to seem less excessive; than if the base adults from the buu saga were continued to be portrayed as above #18 and Piccolo in these later movies.

[Cetra]

Beerus does not need to be wrong the way he meant it. That does not mean that he generally was right. Just like people thought about Gohan. They could not imagine it but it still existed and in this context he was able to beat Cell.

]If Beerus says Goku couldn't beat Freeza I don't know how you could take that any other way except his maximum in his base form not being good enough to beat Freeza.

Then you need a lesson in context/relations. Beerus never mentions anything that makes it unequivocal as "well, you can't beat Freezer in that form that is definitely your maximum base form". Nothing implies this or that. As a matter of fact that Beerus does not know about the power of a Super Saiyajin shows that he does not immediately imagine everything possible and cannot even believe it - which is why he wants to fight Super Saiyajin God Goku in the first place to compare him with himself. Beerus is not omniscient. He did not even notice SSJG Goku was holding back. Just as Nappa also underestimated the Z warriors by not really thinking about power supression even though both him and Vegeta already got to know about it because of Radditz.

Beerus' line about Goku during that time -> true
during Super Saiyajin -> wrong (but Beerus even confirms his knowledge about it and that it might be the reason, yet nothing about base form power ups not being possible)
during a maximum base form that probably exists/not exists as it has already been reached -> probably true, probably wrong

There is absolutely every reason for Beerus to say that line if Goku was supressed. He did not know about Goku's increase as SSJ so he did not know what Goku was able to do. That also shows that there is no reason to believe that Goku really was at full strength in base form. No sides are definitely said so it is possible. Especially when the Z warriors very often run around with supressed power. And your "because" just agrees with everything I said. It is possible that a supressed base Goku is not strong enough for Freezer, which means in that context Beerus is right but it is at the same time absolutely possible that not supressed he can. As well as the Manga shows enough about their power in base form. And the Gohan example was totally right because my example was not about being proven right or wrong but about different contextesin general. Gohan would not have been able to defeat Cell with no will to fight and the power that Piccolo thought he has. But in context of what Gohan is actually able to do, he proves them wrong.

Basically everything you said actually agreed with me. That is because you said "probably". You also say "there is no reason to not think it is true" but if it would have been actually contradicted or proven right we would not actually talk about it here as we both say "probably". That means the "probably" is the only fitting thing here. It is probably right that is his base maximum and probably not. When it comes to Beerus we only know he took him as he stood there and that in this context he thought of him as not good enough. There was no "well, hm, base form maximum ... hm" which was proven as really being the base form maximum by Goku then. There was no "Dragon Ball-fan-wished" unequivocal power analysis by Beerus.

[Hitiro]

Beerus does not need to be wrong the way he meant it. That does not mean that he generally was right. Just like people thought about Gohan. They could not imagine it but it still existed and in this context he was able to beat Cell.

If Beerus says Goku couldn't beat Freeza I don't know how you could take that any other way except his maximum in his base form not being good enough to beat Freeza. The point Regarder was trying to make was that unless a statement is contradicted it is probably true. They could not imagine Gohan could beat Cell but Gohan proved that statement wrong. Nothing about Beerus statement is contradicted. If Goku had powered up to his maximum in his base form and Beerus said "Well, it looks like I was wrong." Or something along those lines then it is understandable. But all we have from the movie is that a base Saiyan can't rival Freeza. And nothing refutes that statement unless in the next movie the Base Saiyan's (Excluding Gohan, Goku and Gotenks) are picking Freeza apart.

There is no reason for Beerus to even say that line if Goku was suppressed. Because everyone knows that, depending on the degree of the suppression if the base Saiyans were stronger than Freeza, the base Saiyans wouldn't be a match for Freeza. So the line has to mean something.

[Dbzk1999]

Don't see what's wrong with goku being suppressed,
Didn't piccolo say while fighting 20 that it's when they fight is when they increase their strength (or something along those lines)?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yes, but you can still get a feel for someone's power. Goku was able to tell that Piccolo powered-up tremendously from his rosat training despite the fact that he was doing nothing. Krillin also knew that Nail was hiding a lot of power--but most believe Krillin is better at Chi-sensing than most of the others, so.

[xmysticgohanx]

Base Saiyans > Freeza proof:
Everyone was ok with fighting in base in the tournament.
Kaioshin was scared of Babidi's henchmen.

Base Saiyans < Freeza proof:
Beerus' statement.

I personally believe Base Saiyans > Freeza because Goku could've been suppressed and why would Kaioshin not sense any of Babidi's henchmen?

[dbzfan7]

So Beerus was talking out of his ass hole for no real reason, and Captain Ginyu is way better at reading people than the God of Destruction....ok.

[RandomGuy96]

I personally believe Base Saiyans > Freeza because Goku could've been suppressed and why would Kaioshin not sense any of Babidi's henchmen?

Goku outright said he couldn't sense any life energy from Yamu and Spopovich, and Kaioshin warned the saiyans to be cautious of Pui Pui even after sensing SS2 Gohan. I guess Pui Pui > Dabra, too? Kaioshin was still cautious of the former even after Goku told him Dabra would be no problem.

[Hitiro]

Then you need a lesson in context/relations. Beerus never mentions anything that makes it unequivocal as "well, you can't beat Freezer in that form that is definitely your maximum base form". Nothing implies this or that. As a matter of fact that Beerus does not know about the power of a Super Saiyajin shows that he does not immediately imagine everything possible and cannot even believe it - which is why he wants to fight Super Saiyajin God Goku in the first place to compare him with himself. Beerus is not omniscient. He did not even notice SSJG Goku was holding back. Just as Nappa also underestimated the Z warriors by not really thinking about power supression even though both him and Vegeta already got to know about it because of Radditz.

Beerus' line about Goku during that time -> true
during Super Saiyajin -> wrong
during a maximum base form that probably exists/not exists as it has already been reached -> probably true, probably wrong

There is absolutely every reason for Beerus to say that line if Goku was supressed. He did not know about Goku's increase as SSJ so he did not know what Goku was able to do. That also shows that there is no reason to believe that Goku really was at full strength in base form. No sides are definitely said so it is possible. Especially when the Z warriors very often run around with supressed power. And your "because" just agrees with everything I said. It is possible that a supressed base Goku is not strong enough for Freezer, which means in that context Beerus is right but it is at the same time absolutely possible that not supressed he can. As well as the Manga shows enough about their power in base form. And the Gohan example was totally right because my example was not about being proven right or wrong but about different contextesin general. Gohan would not have been able to defeat Cell with no will to fight and the power that Piccolo thought he has. But in context of what Gohan is actually able to do, he proves them wrong.

Basically everything you said actually agreed with me. That is because you said "probably". You also say "there is no reason to not think it is true" but if it would have been actually contradicted or proven right we would not actually talk about it here as we both say "probably". That means the "probably" is the only fitting thing here. It is probably right that is his base maximum and probably not. When it comes to Beerus we only know he took him as he stood there and that in this context he thought of him as not good enough. There was no "well, hm, base form maximum ... hm" which was proven as really being the base form maximum by Goku then. There was no "Dragon Ball-fan-wished" unequivocal power analysis by Beerus.

A few things, first of all Beerus approached Goku thinking he could use SSJGod. So he would have assumed Goku could only fight Freeza by transforming into the SSJGod form after sensing his base form wasn't up to Freeza's standards. Furthermore, had Beerus not been talking about Goku at 100% then the statement doesn't even belong in the movie. Because if Goku was 10x stronger than Freeza it is obvious that a suppressed Goku only using 5% of his power wouldn't beat Freeza. We all know that. It serves no purpose being in the movie if it was merely talking about a suppressed Goku. Also, as with any other Ki sensing character, Beerus would be able to tell through Ki sensing Goku wasn't outputting his full power. That in of itself is a reason to believe what Goku was capable of at the time was his full strength in base form. Secondly we know characters who can sense Ki understand a characters maximum unequivocally when they are using it. If Goku is at his maximum in his base form there is no reason for Beerus to question it even if Beerus wasn't thinking Goku underwent some sort of transformation while fighting Freeza. So it's more like:

Base Goku 100% < Freeza 100%: True until some statement, or feat, proves Beerus wrong.

There is also the out-of-universe explanation that was already brought up. The line would serve no reason if it was just randomly said without being true in the sense that Beerus was talking about base Goku at 100%. Because, like I said above, it is obvious that a suppressed Goku could lose to Freeza if he didn't output his full power(Though this would be incredibly stupid). It is also obvious Goku wouldn't have needed SSJ if Freeza suppressed himself to 1% and Goku whipped out his Kaioken x20 with a Kamehameha. Freeza would have been vaporised before he had a chance to respond.

I personally believe Base Saiyans > Freeza because Goku could've been suppressed and why would Kaioshin not sense any of Babidi's henchmen?

If Goku was suppressed Beerus would sense it though. As all, good Ki-sensing, characters know when someone is holding back. None of the Z-senshi have ever been wrong about them knowing an enemy was holding back. What can't be determined is how much strength the person is holding back. There is the fact that Ki-sensing characters know when someone is at full power too. This statement would be random and useless if it wasn't on about 100% Goku so why add it as a statement in the movie? They were clearly trying to point out that the base Saiyans need there transformations. Otherwise what use is there in telling us that a suppressed Goku can't beat Freeza? That is pretty obvious depending on the degree of suppression(If Goku was stronger than Freeza).

We also don't even know if anybody apart from Dabra and Boo in the Boo arc even surpassed Freeza. Kaioshin was afraid of Babidi's minions but that was only because of their reputation and the Kaioshin was terrible at Ki-sensing. Pui Pui is a prime example of a character who is probably weaker than Freeza. Do you think 10 times gravity would be too difficult of a feat for Freeza? Freeza with his Ki level should be able to do 100x easy. So if Pui Pui thinks 10x is an incredible feat he is most certainly under Freeza's level. But Kaioshin is still afraid anyway.

As for the fighting in base at the tournament. Vegeta only cared about fighting Goku. Goku never even heard this conversation so it doesn't matter what he thinks but I would assume he is fine just fighting against his son and Vegeta. And Gohan only needed to fight and win prize money. Which he would easily do even if Piccolo and #18 were in it. At least, Gohan would have claimed 3rd place. If Piccolo knocked #18 out in the early rounds then Gohan would be guarantee'd 2nd if he could still beat Vegeta and Goku. Gohan was really only interested in keeping his identity safe at the tournament so he thought he'd hide the whole SSJ thing.

[Dbzk1999]

So Beerus was talking out of his ass hole for no real reason, and Captain Ginyu is way better at reading people than the God of Destruction....ok.

Considering
He thought Vegeta is a SSG even though he didn't sense a God ki from him.
He can't even tell that Goku is a God or not and said it twice, Goku (after absorbing the energy the first time) is strong but he can't tell if he's God or not until Whis contradicted him.
It's not far from the ballpark

[singsing]

So Beerus was talking out of his ass hole for no real reason, and Captain Ginyu is way better at reading people than the God of Destruction....ok.

Considering
He thought Vegeta is a SSG even though he didn't sense a God ki from him.
He can't even tell that Goku is a God or not and said it twice, Goku (after absorbing the energy the first time) is strong but he can't tell if he's God or not until Whis contradicted him.
It's not far from the ballpark

He never believed that Goku was a god after the first time, Whis only contradicted the Earthlings.

[Hitiro]

So Beerus was talking out of his ass hole for no real reason, and Captain Ginyu is way better at reading people than the God of Destruction....ok.

Considering
He thought Vegeta is a SSG even though he didn't sense a God ki from him.
He can't even tell that Goku is a God or not and said it twice, Goku (after absorbing the energy the first time) is strong but he can't tell if he's God or not until Whis contradicted him.
It's not far from the ballpark

You're making the assumption that sensing God Ki and sensing regular Ki are the same thing though. If they were then any of the Z-senshi would be able to sense Beerus. But they can't. The way Beerus portrays his Ki sensing abilities in BoG it seems like he can't sense God Ki himself. I have no problem believing he can't because insanely strong characters like Freeza or Dabra couldn't sense regular Ki. So why can't there be a character as strong as Beerus who can't sense God Ki?

But to compare his regular Ki sensing ability to God Ki sensing abilities is basically like comparing SSJ to SSJ3. They are completely different. Just because he is good at sensing Regular Ki doesn't mean he is going to be good at sensing God Ki, or even mean he can sense it anyway.

[dbzfan7]

So Beerus was talking out of his ass hole for no real reason, and Captain Ginyu is way better at reading people than the God of Destruction....ok.

Considering
He thought Vegeta is a SSG even though he didn't sense a God ki from him.
He can't even tell that Goku is a God or not and said it twice, Goku (after absorbing the energy the first time) is strong but he can't tell if he's God or not until Whis contradicted him.
It's not far from the ballpark

You're making the assumption that sensing God Ki and sensing regular Ki are the same thing though. If they were then any of the Z-senshi would be able to sense Beerus. But they can't. The way Beerus portrays his Ki sensing abilities in BoG it seems like he can't sense God Ki himself. I have no problem believing he can't because insanely strong characters like Freeza or Dabra couldn't sense regular Ki. So why can't their be a character as strong as Beerus who can't sense God Ki?

But to compare his regular Ki sensing ability to God Ki sensing abilities is basically like comparing SSJ to SSJ3. They are completely different. Just because he is good at sensing Regular Ki doesn't mean he is going to be good at sensing God Ki, or even mean he can sense it anyway.

Apparently a guy who can't sense ki at all can do a better reading then Beerus, who knew?

[freezamite]

Wow that's even more of a spin that I could hope. So now it seems Vegeta realized his limits without reaching them, and he got angry why exactly? How could he even realize his limits without reaching them? He asked for Bulma to do some kind of cientific check on his body so he could know his maximum potential? It's obvious that you're trolling at this point. It's just a nonsensical excuse after the other...

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

How does Goku think he is about at his limits? Kuririn says something like this too.

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P4.6, P5.1-4, P6.1-2
Context: Great Elder draws out Kuririn’s hidden power.
Great Elder: “By the way, despite being an Earthling, you have outstanding power…But it’s a shame that you have power still dormant…”
Kuririn: “Th-that can’t be…! I don’t have that sort of power or nothin’…! I’ve trained pretty harshly…I think even now I’ve already about surpassed my limits…[*the Great Elder draws his power out*] Aw…awawa…! Po…power…power…! Ehyaah! I’m bursting with power! Amazing! Unbelievable, I feel as if I’ve come back to life!”

So how do they seem to realize their limits without reaching them? Did they also ask Bulma to do some kind of scientific check on their bodies to come to the same result?

So the problem is the lack of reading comprehension. Ok, don't worry, too many words together so it may be difficult at certain levels. I'll try to explain it to you to see if with short sentences you can at least comprehend what happens in those scenes and the difference between those and Vegeta's transformation into a SSJ.

Firstly, you say "Did they also ask Bulma to do some kind of scientific check?" ok, let's analyse both situations to see if that makes any sort of sense because I don't think so.

Firs scene:

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

I've gotten strong! -> This is the first sentence that Goku says. It means that Goku has increased his strength, in other words, if current Goku were to fight a previous Goku he would win if we don't consider any other deciding factor in a fight besides strength.

My power just keeps gushing forth...! -> It means that he's still getting used to his new powers. The reason of this sentence is to emphasize how much his power has increased (to increase the power is to become stronger, have that on mind because this time I want to at least be sure you understand everything I write and everything you quoted from the manga).

Unbeliavable...! -> This sentence indicates surprise on Goku's part. It's not that Goku thinks that his power increasing (him getting stronger) is a lie or anything like that, it's just that he couldn't believe how strong he was at that point.

And here I thought I was already about at my limits… -> He thought he had already reached his limits, but he realizes at that point that he didn't. In other words, HE WAS WRONG WHEN HE THOUGHT HE HAD REACHED HIS LIMITS, this explains why he was so surprised about him becoming so strong.
This sentence implies two things: 1. Goku thought he had reached his limits. 2. Goku acknowledges he was wrong and that those weren't his limits. Number 2 also means that Goku's "previous" limits weren't his real limits. See?

This is enough to scare even me… -> This reinforces the idea of Goku's being surprised at his own power. It doesn't mean that Goku is scared of his power in the same way he was scared of Freezer for example, it just means that he powered up in a way he couldn't even suspect was possible for him.

So, to make that first sentence a bit easier to digest, I'll rephrase it being careful it doesn't lose its meaning:
GOKU STRONGER! GOKU SURPRISED...! GOKU MISTAKEN ABOUT HIS LIMITS... GOKU SURPRISED...

Now it's easier, don't you agree? Well, let's analyse the simplified sentence, more specifically, the difficult part of it:
GOKU MISTAKEN ABOUT HIS LIMITS... -> HE (GOKU) WAS WRONG -> GOKU WRONG

IF GOKU WRONG THEN GOKU NOT KNOW HIS REAL LIMITS AT THAT POINT (at that point where "point" is not a black dot over a paper, but an imaginary point in the timeline or in other words, a specific moment) -> IF GOKU WRONG THEN GOKU NOT KNOW HIS REAL LIMITS BACK THEN. YOU AGREE?

Thanks, second sentence you quote now:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P4.6, P5.1-4, P6.1-2
Context: Great Elder draws out Kuririn’s hidden power.
Great Elder: “By the way, despite being an Earthling, you have outstanding power…But it’s a shame that you have power still dormant…”
Kuririn: “Th-that can’t be…! I don’t have that sort of power or nothin’…! I’ve trained pretty harshly…I think even now I’ve already about surpassed my limits…[*the Great Elder draws his power out*] Aw…awawa…! Po…power…power…! Ehyaah! I’m bursting with power! Amazing! Unbelievable, I feel as if I’ve come back to life!”

So how do they seem to realize their limits without reaching them? Did they also ask Bulma to do some kind of scientific check on their bodies to come to the same result?

It would take too long to explain you those sentences in detail so I'll go directly with the simplified versions of them. If you don't believe my simplified sentences have the same meaning as the non simplified ones then feel free to ask anyone who can at least understand them.
Great Elder: "YOU (KRILIN) STRONG BUT SOME STRENGTH NOT ACTIVATED" -> Krilin was strong, but he still had some more strength in him that he couldn't use at that moment (I'm aware that those explanations are a bit harder to understand than the simplified sentences so if you can't decipher them just stick to the simplified sentences. IF EXPLANATIONS DIFFICULT READ SENTENCES WRITTEN IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY).
Krilin: DON'T BELIEVE...! DON'T BELIEVE...! DON'T BELIEVE*... WOW...! POWER...! SURPRISE! A LOT OF POWER! SURPRISE! SURPRISE!

* This may be a bit harder to understand so I'll do my best to explain it. Firstly, "*" means that you have to look for another "*" in my previously written text because what I'm about to explain you refers to that concrete part of my text. In that case, you have to go to Krilin's simplified sentence and you'll find the symbol at the 3rd "DON'T BELIEVE".
That 3rd DON'T BELIEVE is the equivalent of "I've trained pretty harshly... I think even now I've already about surpassed my limits...". Ok, I admit this may be difficult depending on your age so I'll try my best. When Krilin says that he "already about surpassed his limits" he tries to empathize in the fact that he has trained so much that he doesn't think there's any "limit" for him still to be surpassed, or in other words, he has reached his REAL limits.
Of course, the "WOW...! POWER...! SURPRISE! A LOT OF POWER! SURPRISE! SURPRISE!" part of the sentence proves him wrong. He still had a lot of power he wasn't aware of so he was mistaken about what he thought were his limits.

So to put it in a way that's understandable enough let's summarize it like this:
KRILIN MISTAKEN ABOUT HIS LIMITS... -> HE (KRILIN) WAS WRONG -> KRILIN WRONG

Now let's analyse what Vegeta says:

Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

I'll try to explain this as well as I can. (Again) In case of doubts don't hesitate to ask me and if you think I'm lying to you ask anyone else on the forums (anyone who can decipher relatively long sentences of course) or your parents for help.

Firstly, the "I was tranquil.... Tranquil and pure... Pure evil, that is..." is not relevant to our analysis so I'll omit it. What this means is that you can cut out that part of the sentence and erase it and what's important about it will still be there (so that's what I'll do in order to prepare the sentence for you).
Vegeta's "new" sentence is the following one then (it's not new, don't worry, it's the same one but without the aforementioned part. If you don't believe me seeing that's a difficult phrase you can compare the symbols (letters) and you'll see that I've just cut out that part and that nothing more has been altered):
"I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!"

This time there are a lot of different concepts to directly write simplified versions of the sentence so I'll go with an explanation of it like I did with Goku's sentence.

I wished to get strong just by training earnestly... -> Vegeta thought he would become stronger the more he trained. In other words, he wanted to increase his power by conventional training. We could also say that Vegeta thought something on the lines "I will train a lot and I'll become stronger than I am". So to put it in the simplest way: "VEGETA THINKS VEGETA TRAINS THEN VEGETA GETS STRONG".

And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…-> This one is easier, it can be rephrased as "VEGETA TRAINED A LOT".

Eventually, I realized my limits… -> Ok so this one is a bit trickier when being an apprentice in the art of reading. Vegeta realized his limits, in other words, those were his real limits because Vegeta still thinks those were his limits. See? This is not Vegeta saying "I surpassed my limits" nor "I thought I had reached my limits but I didn't". This is Vegeta saying THOSE WERE MY LIMITS, AND THOSE STILL ARE MY LIMITS (besides the SSJ form, of course). He realized his limits, in other words, he realized he couldn't possibly go further than that. This time the sentence can't be simplified any more without it loosing part of its meaning so I'll just adapt that bit to the structure of the simplified sentence so we can then just add it to the other simplified fragments of it. "VEGETA REALIZED HIS LIMITS".

Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan! -> Vegeta was really pissed and thanks to that he awakened into a SSJ. Now in order to know why he was pissed we need the context of what he said, in other words, we have to add the meaning of the different sentences he used and of course in order to to that we will use the simplified versions of those phrases because this time I'll make sure you will at least come close to understand part of what I'm saying.

By the way, I would simplify this last part of the sentence as "VEGETA GOT ANGRY AND VEGETA AWAKENED HIS SSJ".

So, what Vegeta says in an understandable for everyone here way is:
"VEGETA THINKS VEGETA TRAINS THEN VEGETA GETS STRONG. VEGETA TRAINED A LOT. VEGETA REALIZED HIS LIMITS. VEGETA GOT ANGRY AND VEGETA AWAKENED HIS SSJ".

Now this may surprise you, but with that "complete" dialogue of Vegeta we can guess why he was so pissed. Yes, I know you think he was pissed because he didn't like Bulma's clothes or because Bulma had a small affair with Yamcha, but even when those could be real possibilities in real life, this is a comic book and we have to work with what has been told to us and nothing of what you think was the reason for Vegeta's anger was told to us at any point so even when I'm sure you still have good reasons to believe it I'm sorry to tell you that you're wrong.

Vegeta was angry because he wanted to become stronger by training, but that wasn't possible once he reached his limits. He could of course train new techniques, new poses or even new sarcastic sentences but what we know for certain is that he couldn't get stronger, because that's the reason he got angry.
Again, slowly. Vegeta thought that by training he would become stronger, he had that expectation. And he trained a lot. But then, he realized his limits. And how does he realize his limits exactly? Well, by training and training and realizing that he couldn't become stronger.

Now I'll contextualize the situation a bit so you can understand it better because I think there are some aspects of the series you still don't know:
Goku is the main protagonist of the series, an alien from the saiyan race (that happens to be from the human species as well) of the lower classes. In a certain moment of the story Vegeta, another alien from that species but from the highest class, arrives at earth and plans to destroy it but Goku is able to stop him with the help of his friends. Even when Goku stops Vegeta, he (Goku) doesn't kill him (Vegeta), and from that point of the series onward Vegeta makes Goku his number 1 rival. Of course, since he is a high class saiyan he is totally sure that someday he will surpass Goku. At one point in the series, Goku becomes a SSJ (a legend among the saiyans) and Vegeta -still convinced that as a high class saiyan he can do whatever Goku does and better- that still wasn't able to become one starts to train in order to catch with Goku and surpass him.

This is important to understand the meaning of what Vegeta says. Firstly, Vegeta was convinced he was superior to Goku. I'll repeat: VEGETA CONVINCED VEGETA BETTER THAN GOKU.
Since VEGETA KNEW GOKU ALREADY A SSJ it was impossible for him to think he had reached his limits before turning into a SSJ if he didn't really reach them. In other words, Vegeta expected to become a SSJ by training = VEGETA WANT BECOME A SSJ TRAINING.

Both Goku and Krilin thought they had reached their limits before reaching them because they had no reference to tell them if they could become stronger, but once they became stronger, they realized those weren't their real limits. Again: GOKU NOTHING TO COMPARE HIMSELF TO, GOKU THOUGHT HE AS STRONG AS POSSIBLE. BUT GOKU STRONGER, SO GOKU SAYS GOKU WRONG.

Now let's compare it to what happened to Vegeta:
VEGETA WEAKER THAN GOKU. VEGETA THOUGHT VEGETA STRONGER THAN GOKU IF TRAINING A LOT. VEGETA TRAINED. VEGETA NOT STRONGER SO VEGETA WRONG AND PISSED.

See the difference now and why Vegeta's limits are his real limits (as a non SSJ)?

For one, it is my opinion that by the mecha Freeza saga AT had retconned the 50x ssj multiplier to something like 4x for the rest of the series. I guess he though he overdid it or something. And with that retcon he inflated the base powers of the saiyans and Piccolo as well. The first clue for this is how Goku thinks it is conceivable that either Vegeta or Piccolo could kill Mecha Freeza, who was probably at 50-70 % and a King Cold who was probably somewhere around that level or possibly a bit more.

Nope, I disagree. What this means is that Mecha Freezer was much weaker than in his real form. I mean, Mecha Freezer has much less power than what he had on Namek and that's confirmed by Gohan. Then we know he considers himself stronger than Cold and also that Cold considers himself weaker than his son. We also know the strength Freezer had at the same form Cold appears and since we know Freezer is the strongest of the two there's no reason for me to think that Cold would be stronger than his son and even less if Cold was transformed.

We also know that when Toriyama wrote the fight against Freezer he designed it with the sense that Goku would have, as a SSJ, 10x the strength he had prior to that point. This doesn't mean that the SSJ is a 10x transformation because as we know Goku enraged before it and the fact that in his base state he could react to one of Freezer's attacks makes me think that the SSJ form was a 2x multiplier at first over the limit of the base state or even lower.
But speculations aside what we know is that the increased base state + the SSJ transformation gave Goku the equivalent of a Kaioh Ken x10 boost in real power which is still 1/4th the strength Freezer had.

The second clue for this is how Dr. Gero reveals that absorbing the weakest base saiyan(gohan), a suppressed Piccolo who was probably at base saiyan level, and two humans(Krillin and Tenshinhan) who most likely were below base saiyans, would put him above SSJ Vegeta, when Gero was so far below Vegeta that even Piccolo>>>Dr. Gero(+ Suppressed Piccolo).

Well, I think that more than Vegeta being downgraded as a SSJ or his base forms being upgraded, what happened there is that:
1. The difference between an untrained SSJ and a base saiyan isn't as big as a lot of people think here. The x50 multiplier contradicts the manga at nearly every page a power reference is given, I still can't believe so many people gives validity to this even to the point to say that it was Akira Toriyama the one who was wrong when he said "it wasn't x50 you idiots" (of course he didn't tell anyone idiot, but it's obvious that this was what he thought when he felt the necessity to address this even when no one asked him).

With the numbers we're given in the manga an untrained SSJ is at around 3.000.000 of power give or take. Piccolo, at that point, was well beyond the 2.000.000 mark. In fact, I think that while weaker than Vegeta Piccolo was at SSJ Trunks' level at that point or close enough to it to give him a good fight in case they fought.

It's not that Toriyama suddenly upgraded the base saiyans, it's that the SSJs weren't as strong as most people wanted to believe (yes, I know, the SSJ is the being of the legend and have a really cool design but things are how they are and we cannot give a character more strength than he was intended to have only because we like its design).

No, because in a situation of him not utilizing the Kaiou-ken in any form, he was still able to go toe to toe against the same Freeza who had surpassed Vegeta, who had surpassed Freeza's 3rd form, who had in turn surpassed Piccolo, who likewise had surpassed Freeza's second form, which was stated, by him, to be over a million if a device existed to read his battle power.

I disagree. Goku was already at KKx10 when he started to fight against Freezer. He never activates any KK of any form during the fight, and when we're told that the KK is in use it's not to tell us that it has been activated at that point but that it was activated way before. Ten Shin Han and his observations are there for that purpose, because that's what the reader was still thinking at that point: "Hey, Goku is fighting against Freezer and he can still use KK and we were told he could reach KKx10 right?" and then Toriyama/Kaito address that by saying: "No, Goku is already using the KKx10".

Furthermore we never see or are given any indication of the KK being activated at a certain point (at least that I know) so it can't be assumed that the KK was activated during the fight. If it wasn't activated during the fight but it was already in use when Kaito told us then that means that Goku had been fighting with KKx10 the whole time.

The manga never stated that the base form cannot be increased.

Yes it clearly did (see my simplified explanation to Hitiro). The SSJ is by definition the Saiyan that surpasses the limits a base saiyan no matter how gifted or high class or whatever it is can never surpass. And we have Vegeta telling to us that he couldn't get stronger no matter how he trained, that this limit existed and that it was real.

The whole point of his training with Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time was to reduce the stress and strain of the form, so that, unlike the earlier times he used it against Freeza and #19, it wouldn't wear him out near as much, and thus he'd be able to fight for longer without wearing out. The multiplier for the form is not changing, but because the Ssj form is growing stronger, the base form is growing stronger in proportion to him.

Well, besides the fact that this contradicts the explanation Vegeta gives to us, there's the fact that we've seen tons of times in the series the effects of erasing the stress and strain of the body and that results in higher strength and not in being able to fight for more time.
The most evident example is Nappa. Nappa didn't get tired faster because he was stressed, he just became much, much weaker than he really was. He was being trashed by Goku until he calmed down and he happened to be at Goku's same level (he still was a bit weaker but he had been fighting until then and he obviously had already lost some strength at that point) or even a bit above if he hadn't been as injured as he was.
The whole power up Goku receives when he trains with Kami is related to him learning how to relax and optimize his strength. Again, it wasn't a matter of fighting for longer but simply becoming stronger.

He was utilizing weights on his arms and legs to train, which is a natural progression of the turtle shells and weighted clothing he utilized in Dragon Ball and early Z to increase his strength and speed.

When he wanted to increase his speed and his strength he put himself a weight so heavy that he could barely move with it and he didn't cease to use it until the days of training ended and the strength was acquired.
That's not what we see there, we just see Goku using those weights and considering how light they were before increasing its weight it's obvious that they weren't used to force the body pass the limits and gain strength. It was more a warm-up or something else.

The only thing that is static is the multiplier to the form. Any increase to the base form is going to automatically make the Ssj, Ssj2, and Ssj3 forms stronger, and no matter how strong you made your Ssj form, your Ssj2 form would still be superior to it in terms of power.

Or there was a limit in the base form as we are told by Vegeta and the SSJ form could be improved to make it stronger and stronger. You can't prove that Goku in his base strength is stronger in the Bu saga than he was in the Cell saga. And by the way, why do you want a SSJ2 and SSJ3 form if by increasing the base form a simple SSJ could become stronger? Have we ever seen a SSJ beating a SSJ2? Anything that could indicate us that this is how things worked?

Because that would make Kaioken x10 and x20 viable again.

So what? The KK had it's drawbacks that put it way below the SSJ form and there're strong suggestions that Goku had to use it when Cold and Mecha Freezer attacked in the future timeline...

I don't think Toriyama's 10x comment necessarily has to mean anything more than, "Super Saiyan's established as a 50x power increase, but that's a really big number that's hard to process in one's head, so it always felt more like 10x to me as I worked."

Hahahahahahahahahah ok that's why I answered Hitiro how I answered him and why this will be my last message in this forums. It doesn't matter what's said or written, only what the official kanzenshuu supporters that put the guides above anything else say.
Toriyama says "it wasn't 50x, I drew it with 10x on mind"? Don't worry, we turn it into "I drew it as if 50x but 50 is too big of a number for me so I'm stupid and I could only imagine it 10x so I don't even know what I'm saying right now because I'm Toriyama and I'm retarded".
Look, why the hell would 50x be hard to process exactly? The whole thing is even funnier when one thinks that the same ones saying 50x was too big of a number to process for Toriyama are the same ones who conveniently put Goku at 3.000.000 when he fights Freezer even when everything points towards 300.000. Hey, geniuses, 90.000 to 3.000.000 is more than 30x and if we add KKx20 to that then we're at the 600x range and that's all according to you.
Toriyama had been dealing with x10 and x20 multipliers like nothing until then but he suddenly was unable to deal with an x50? And if he was so stupid that he wasn't even able to count to 50 then why did he draw it like a "10x increase" when he had previously drawn increases much bigger than that (KKx20 was a 20x increase for example)? Does this interpretation of Toriyama's words has any sense besides insulting him and anyone who liked his work for what it was and not what a given fanboy wanted it to be?

This is the situation according to you:
Toriyama was a seriously mentally incapacitated poor man who had been drawing x20 increases until then but when it came the time to draw a x50 increase (can anyone explain me what's the difference between drawing a 20x increase and a 50x increase besides telling the reader "this is a 50x increase" instead of telling him "this is a 20x increase"?) he could only draw a 10x (what the hell does that mean? And if it's drawn as a 10x doesn't that make it a 10x because that's what's written and explained in the series even if the author had originally planned to put a 50x increase?) increase which makes him even more retarded because if he was able to draw 20x increases before and he wanted to draw a 50x increase then at least he should have been able to draw that as a 20x increase to better represent what he had on mind. But well, the fact is that he was so retarded that 50x was too high of a number for him to writte-draw and he was also too retarded to draw it as a 20x increase so he decided to draw it as a 10x increase.

Afterwards Toriyama is so retarded that he gives numbers that contradict the 50x increase he really wanted to draw like Cell absorbing some hundreds of thousands of people in order to power himself beyond Kami-Piccolo or the power up Piccolo receives when he trains in preparation for the androids, the fact that Freezer was badly injured when he fought SSJ Goku and a 50x wouldn't even make the least of senses in that context and etc. etc. of facts that point towards a 10x because Toriyama was a retarded.

Of course one could think that the ones with reading comprehension problems are the ones that in front of dozens of evidences pointing towards a 10x increase still insist on the 50x increase even after the author himself said "it wasn't x50, it was 10x the whole time" but that of course is not the case here.

[VegettoEX]

Account strikes and bans are being issued.

If you are interested in having a conversation, it must be that: a conversation. You agreed to a certain set of rules (twice) prior to registration, and if you're not willing to live up to your end of the bargain, we're not willing to have you here.

[Hitiro]

@Freezamite If the Saiyan's have reached their limits in their base forms why are their several panels of them training in their base forms at the beginning of the Boo arc? Every single Saiyan we know is shown training in their base form even though they have all, according to you, reached their limits in their base forms. Why is it that Gotenks, despite being able to become a SSJ, has become stronger in his base form?

Account strikes and bans are being issued.

If you are interested in having a conversation, it must be that: a conversation. You agreed to a certain set of rules (twice) prior to registration, and if you're not willing to live up to your end of the bargain, we're not willing to have you here.

I think I've asked this before but how do we know if we have account strikes? Sorry if it is very obvious but I'm always a bit weary about these sorts of things. I feel most of the time I am pretty good at keeping within the rules. But then I don't know how you or other mods feel about some things that are said in conversations. Like the back and forth between people for example. Crossing the line for some people is different for others so it's really hard to know what yourself, or another mod, deem the minimum for an account strike.

I mean, this may be an extreme example but in Tokyo Ghoul there is a rule that says "Not to harm a ghoul any more than necessary." One character says this means to subdue a ghoul with the least amount of damage possible and another character believes this means to kill the ghoul as humanely as possible.

[VegettoEX]

You know if you have an account strike. It is something that lives on your account and you are notified by the forum system that you have received it, perhaps in addition to being publicly outed for it in the course of the forum discussion if the moderator deems it necessary to bring things back on track.

The forum rules are adapted and enforced both literally and by their spirit by the moderation team, depending on the surrounding context.

Please bring this discussion back to its actual focus. Thank you.