How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:33 am

Hugo Boss wrote: [*]Defeating him required the most desperate move, genkidama (Potara was not an option). [/list]
Potara was initially an option, but Goku rejected it. He only admitted later that using the Potara would have made the fight a breeze because Pure Buu's stamina made it near impossible for Goku to make headway in their fight.

It's established that, when Goku and Vegeta had removed Gohan and the others (only Mr. Buu was attached), that Buu's strength had dropped significantly, and that Evil Buu was "almost there" in terms of weakening him to a level to where they could fight him.

Later, when Buu reverted entirely to Pure Buu, Goku makes the comment that they had "done it" and that now they might be able to do something.

Given these two statements, there's a clear indication of a decrease in power from Evil Buu to Pure Buu.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by rereboy » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:35 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
[*]He is the last form of Boo.
Meaningless reason. The heroes fighting him also weren't the strongest heroes of the arc.
Hugo Boss wrote:[*]He is the most dangerous.
Also meaningless. Dangerous can be related to other things other than raw power. In the case of Kid Buu, it was his destructive, chaotic personality.
Hugo Boss wrote:[*]He doesn't have the other Boo's weakness, which is Dai Kaioshin's heart.
If that weakness translated purely to loss of power, there would be no reason for Gray Buu to not be the most powerful of Buus, and him gaining power from eating Good Buu wouldn't make sense.
Hugo Boss wrote:[*]Defeating him required the most desperate move, genkidama (Potara was not an option). [/list]
Potara wasn't a option because Goku and Vegeta decided not to use it and destroyed the earings that Kaioshin offered them. Unlike against Gohan-Buu, both of them felt confident that could defeat Kid Buu without it.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by BejitaSama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:55 pm

In the case of Kid Buu, it was his destructive, chaotic personality.
They indeed mentionned his personnality, but also talked about his power, which is stated greater than Majin Buu.
If that weakness translated purely to loss of power, there would be no reason for Gray Buu to not be the most powerful of Buus, and him gaining power from eating Good Buu wouldn't make sense.
The fact is that the loss of power is the only effect stated in the manga. We all know that the manga has several sentences that directly implie that Kaioshins have negative effect on Buu. Never mention of an increase due to the Kaioshins.

The example of Pure Evil Buu is wrong IMO, because he doesn't contain all of the power of Buu due to the splitting. When he ate Good Buu, he regained all the power he had, but now drived by the "evil".
Potara wasn't a option because Goku and Vegeta decided not to use it and destroyed the earings that Kaioshin offered them. Unlike against Gohan-Buu, both of them felt confident that could defeat Kid Buu without it.
That's not true IMO. If they broke the potara, it's only because they recovered their Saiyan instinct and pride. The earth is destroyed, Buu has nobody inside him, they can fight as they want without concern.
Last edited by BejitaSama on Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by singsing » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:00 pm

BejitaSama wrote: The fact is that the loss of power is the only effect stated in the manga. We all know that the manga has several sentences that directly implie that Kaioshins have negative effect on Buu. Never mention of an increase du to the Kaioshins.

The example of Pure Evil Buu is wrong IMO, because he doesn't contain all of the power of Buu due to the splitting. When he ate Good Buu, he regained all the power he had, but now drived by the "evil".

Not really, the fact is that the loss of power is the only effect stated in the manga for Dai Kaioshin. We do not know that the manga has several sentences that state all Kaioshins would have the same effect. It is mentioned specifically for Dai Kaoishin and no one else.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by BejitaSama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:04 pm

Not really, the fact is that the loss of power is the only effect stated in the manga for Dai Kaioshin. We do not know that the manga has several sentences that state all Kaioshins would have the same effect. It is mentioned specifically for Dai Kaoishin and no one else.
No, it's not stated only for Dai Kaioshin, it's stated for Kaioshin(s). Choose with a "s" or not "s".
Furthermore, an increase is clearly never mentionned. And we know that East Kaioshin ki can't revive Buu, and that Potara (Kaioshins treasure, not especially Dai Kaioshin) effect stopped inside Buu.

That makes 3 points for the loss and...nothing for an increase.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:25 pm

An increase is noted as he enters the form that absorbed the strongest Kaioshin.
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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by BejitaSama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:44 pm

Yeah, compared to Super Buu. Not Pure Buu :wink:

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by singsing » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:36 pm

BejitaSama wrote:Yeah, compared to Super Buu. Not Pure Buu :wink:
... Hey Vegeta, he's getting stronger isn't he...?

WHOOT WE DID IT WE'RE ALMOST THERE.

Doesn't sound to me at all like he got stronger.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:38 pm

BejitaSama wrote:
Not really, the fact is that the loss of power is the only effect stated in the manga for Dai Kaioshin. We do not know that the manga has several sentences that state all Kaioshins would have the same effect. It is mentioned specifically for Dai Kaoishin and no one else.
No, it's not stated only for Dai Kaioshin, it's stated for Kaioshin(s). Choose with a "s" or not "s".
Furthermore, an increase is clearly never mentionned. And we know that East Kaioshin ki can't revive Buu, and that Potara (Kaioshins treasure, not especially Dai Kaioshin) effect stopped inside Buu.

That makes 3 points for the loss and...nothing for an increase.
BejitaSama wrote:Yeah, compared to Super Buu. Not Pure Buu :wink:
The Japanese sentence which talks about the Kaioshin decreasing the Boo's power is very vague. That is why Herms put a brackets around the s in the sentence. Because it is difficult to tell if the word is a plural or not.

Goku clearly says after Buff Boo vanished that they "did it." This is in reference to what they set out to do while they were inside Boo which was to decrease Boo's power. So once the South Kaioshin's influence was lost Boo had actually decreased in strength. It would not make sense if Boo had increased strength at this stage because Goku had already said they would be destroyed by Evil Boo(Super Boo) if they were to fight him. But now they're so confident they can beat Pure Boo(Kid Boo) that Goku thinks he can do it without fusion. So do you really believe that he increased in strength? As it stands we get this:

S. Kaioshin Boo > Evil Boo(Super Boo) > Pure Boo(Kid Boo)

We get this only because statement we get about the Kaioshin's is vague, Japanese doesn't translate plurals very well so we don't if it is a plural or if it is just referencing the one Kaioshin that made him lose power and gave him a gentle heart(Something the S. Kaioshin didn't anyway so it probably is only talking about the Dai Kaioshin). It was stated to go up when he became the S. Kaioshin Boo, but if it had remained increased from this point and then increased again after Boo became the Pure Boo then he Goku would have surely panicked and got Vegeta to fuse with him straight away. Because we know Goku couldn't handle Evil Boo(Super Boo) as with what he said before.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by rereboy » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:13 pm

BejitaSama wrote:
They indeed mentionned his personnality, but also talked about his power, which is stated greater than Majin Buu.
Greater than Fat Buu, yes, Goku says stuff along those lines. However, what was said is also along the lines of Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu.


The fact is that the loss of power is the only effect stated in the manga.


Not at all. Its directly stated that the absorptions changed his personality/heart, so, no, loss of power is not the only thing.
We all know that the manga has several sentences that directly implie that Kaioshins have negative effect on Buu. Never mention of an increase due to the Kaioshins.
That's simply not true. Goku exhibited relief and confidence after Buu turned into Kid Buu and even after fighting him he was confident that he would be able to kill him if he powered his SSJ3 to 100%. However, he was sure that he and Vegeta were no match for Super Buu and he and Vegeta commented that Buff Buu seemed to have more power than Super Buu. Therefore Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu. And, as you know, Buff Buu is Kid Buu with South Kaioshin absorbed.

That's not true IMO. If they broke the potara, it's only because they recovered their Saiyan instinct and pride. The earth is destroyed, Buu has nobody inside him, they can fight as they want without concern.
What...? Dende told them that they could bring Earth back with the Namekian Dragon Balls before Kaioshin handed them another set of Potara earings. So, your theory of them having nothing to lose makes no sense. And what Goku says is "No, thanks, we''l do it without them. Buu is on his own now too".

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by BejitaSama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:50 pm

Goku clearly says after Buff Boo vanished that they "did it." This is in reference to what they set out to do while they were inside Boo which was to decrease Boo's power. So once the South Kaioshin's influence was lost Boo had actually decreased in strength. It would not make sense if Boo had increased strength at this stage because Goku had already said they would be destroyed by Evil Boo(Super Boo) if they were to fight him. But now they're so confident they can beat Pure Boo(Kid Boo) that Goku thinks he can do it without fusion. So do you really believe that he increased in strength? As it stands we get this:

S. Kaioshin Boo > Evil Boo(Super Boo) > Pure Boo(Kid Boo)
Not at all. You make your suppositions as a fact, so please try to use expressions like "IMO". First of all, the "we did it" sounds like a reference to the size of Pure Buu, as they noticed later : "he's smaller". Bejita did the same thing against Perfect Cell, it's a Toriyama classic. You interpret this phrase in your advantage, but it can be interpreted in different way. All your story about the south kaioshin is ALSO an interpretation. I don't have the same, for a poor character that the story mentionned one time.

It's interesting to see how you created an interpretation and really believe in it, as it was really written in the manga. You should open your mind.
We get this only because statement we get about the Kaioshin's is vague, Japanese doesn't translate plurals very well so we don't if it is a plural or if it is just referencing the one Kaioshin that made him lose power and gave him a gentle heart(Something the S. Kaioshin didn't anyway so it probably is only talking about the Dai Kaioshin). It was stated to go up when he became the S. Kaioshin Boo, but if it had remained increased from this point and then increased again after Boo became the Pure Boo then he Goku would have surely panicked and got Vegeta to fuse with him straight away. Because we know Goku couldn't handle Evil Boo(Super Boo) as with what he said before.
You have the right to make a whole story in order to justify some points in the manga that contradict your theory (like all the stuff with South Kaioshin, ignoring the clues I mentionned before), so I can too. And to make all coherent, I just have to interpret one thing : the sentence of Goku inside Super Buu. And I see a lot of reasons that could justify the fact that Goku said he couldn't beat the monster :
- the power of Goku at this moment is still based on his conversation with Piccolo : maximum equal to Majin Buu. And we know that wasn't its full power.
- Goku prefers fuse to use his SSJ3 : he already asked to fuse with Bejita or Gohan against Majin Buu, which is clearly inferior to Goku SSJ3 serious.
- Goku knows that if they go out, Bejita is in danger. And he knows that save Bejita's life again would destroy the Saiyan.
-...

You see, I can also build something clearly possible. Maybe not for you, but in reality, it's as possible as your theory.
Greater than Fat Buu, yes, Goku says stuff along those lines. However, what was said is also along the lines of Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu.
No lines directly compared Pure Buu to Super Buu. The only information we have is that Pure Buu is clearly stronger than Majin Buu, and that Super Buu has greater body and skills than Majin Buu.
Not at all. Its directly stated that the absorptions changed his personality/heart, so, no, loss of power is not the only thing.
..And ?
That's simply not true. Goku exhibited relief and confidence after Buu turned into Kid Buu and even after fighting him he was confident that he would be able to kill him if he powered his SSJ3 to 100%. However, he was sure that he and Vegeta were no match for Super Buu and he and Vegeta commented that Buff Buu seemed to have more power than Super Buu. Therefore Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu. And, as you know, Buff Buu is Kid Buu with South Kaioshin absorbed.
Yeah, just like Goku was quite confident at the beginning of his fight against Freeza, like Bejita was confident against Perfect Cell,...
And you hide the fact that Goku and Bejita showed confidence after commented the size of Buu's body. So, you are clearly interpreting here too. It's impossible for you to prove that they were talking about Ki. The logic of the dialog tends to go with my position.
What...? Dende told them that they could bring Earth back with the Namekian Dragon Balls before Kaioshin handed them another set of Potara earings. So, your theory of them having nothing to lose makes no sense. And what Goku says is "No, thanks, we''l do it without them. Buu is on his own now too".
[/quote]

What...? I'm not inventing, I just repeat what Goku said when he broke the potara :lol: He justify this by the argument I used in my previous post. I can't be more precise, so if you can't understand my position...

Pure Buu > Pure Buu South Kaioshin > Super Buu > Majin Buu > Pure Evil Buu > Good Buu is pretty clear IMO.

I don't ask you to agree, I just want you to stop imposing your point of view. You could be more humble. Again, nothing is really clear in Buu saga, you just have to admit it.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:02 pm

I like how this topic is about Buff Buu and Grey Buu, yet it, like every other Buu discussion, ends up with people ranting about the same old tired Super Buu/Pure Buu argument.
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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:26 pm

BejitaSama wrote:Not at all. You make your suppositions as a fact, so please try to use expressions like "IMO". First of all, the "we did it" sounds like a reference to the size of Pure Buu, as they noticed later : "he's smaller". Bejita did the same thing against Perfect Cell, it's a Toriyama classic. You interpret this phrase in your advantage, but it can be interpreted in different way. All your story about the south kaioshin is ALSO an interpretation. I don't have the same, for a poor character that the story mentionned one time.
Why does "we did it" sound like it is in reference to Pure Boo's size? The goal of Goku and Vegeta wasn't to shrink Boo but decrease his power so that they could fight him without fusion. And honestly, why would Goku who was sensing Boo up to only a few seconds ago stop sensing him and make a random statement like this due to size?
BejitaSama wrote:It's interesting to see how you created an interpretation and really believe in it, as it was really written in the manga. You should open your mind.
I could honestly say the same thing about you.
BejitaSama wrote:You have the right to make a whole story in order to justify some points in the manga that contradict your theory (like all the stuff with South Kaioshin, ignoring the clues I mentionned before)
What are you on about? What I said about the statement about the Japanese translation is a fact. You can ask Herms or any other person who can translate Japanese. Plurals don't translate very well unless they are given context in the sentence. From what we get from the sentence it is impossible to determine whether Kibitoshin is talking about one Kaioshin or more than one Kaioshin.
BejitaSama wrote:- the power of Goku at this moment is still based on his conversation with Piccolo : maximum equal to Majin Buu. And we know that wasn't its full power.
What does this have to do with him claiming he can't beat Evil Boo exactly?
BejitaSama wrote:- Goku prefers fuse to use his SSJ3 : he already asked to fuse with Bejita or Gohan against Majin Buu, which is clearly inferior to Goku SSJ3 serious.
How is fusion inferior to his SSJ3 form exactly? Two SSJ children who are weaker than him could, by his own admission, beat Fat Boo easily. Goku and Vegeta's fusion would be much stronger than Gotenks' one and they would be able to fight as SSJ2's. So at this point whatever power Goku showed against Fat Boo is inferior to a regular SSJ fusion. Let alone a SSJ2 fusion. Goku couldn't have been fighting at much less than half of his strength when he fought Fat Boo either unless you don't believe in the 400x multiplier for SSJ3 because if he were fighting at something like 25% then he would be as strong as his SSJ2 self. And we know that a SSJ2 non-fusion can't beat Fat Boo.
BejitaSama wrote:- Goku knows that if they go out, Bejita is in danger. And he knows that save Bejita's life again would destroy the Saiyan.
This is a fine point, I have no problems with this.
BejitaSama wrote:You see, I can also build something clearly possible. Maybe not for you, but in reality, it's as possible as your theory.
Your opinion would be a possible theory if Goku hadn't of said that they would be destroyed by Evil Boo. Nothing contradicts my theory that the S. Kaioshin actually increased Boo's power. Because as I said earlier it is impossible to tell whether Kibitoshin is talking about 1 or more Kaioshin.
BejitaSama wrote:No lines directly compared Pure Buu to Super Buu. The only information we have is that Pure Buu is clearly stronger than Majin Buu, and that Super Buu has greater body and skills than Majin Buu.
No lines directly compared Pure Boo to Evil Boo? How about:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
They are simply no match for Evil Boo's strength.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Goku can wipe out Pure Boo with 100% of his strength.

So how does "no match for Evil Boo's strength" make it weaker than "Goku can wipe out Pure Boo with 100% of his strength"? How is this not clear? I don't really understand.
BejitaSama wrote:Yeah, just like Goku was quite confident at the beginning of his fight against Freeza, like Bejita was confident against Perfect Cell,...
Except both of these characters could suppress their strength. Boo was never claimed to be able to do this. The only time they misjudged his strength was when he was Fat Boo because Fat Boo could only draw on Pure Boo's strength when he was angry.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by BejitaSama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:31 pm

I like how this topic is about Buff Buu and Grey Buu, yet it, like every other Buu discussion, ends up with people ranting about the same old tired Super Buu/Pure Buu argument.
Sorry for off topic.

To respond to the subject, Pure Evil Buu is stated to have the majority of the power of Majin Buu. So, if you put Majin Buu at 100, he should be between 50-70. I'd say 65

Buff Buu is superior to Super Buu, and after that you have two possibilties :

- You think that all Kaioshins lowered Buu's power, so Buff Buu is bewteen Super Buu and Pure Buu. Super Buu would be a version of Majin Buu with the evil side dominant but with a little influence of two Kaioshins, and Buff the less suppressed Buu, because he has just one Kaioshin absorbed.

- You think South Kaioshin added power to Pure Buu, so Buff Buu is simply South Kaioshin + Pure Buu. I personnaly see South Kaioshin around Cell game Gokû SSJ. Can't imagine a Kaioshin be stronger than that with all elements of the manga.
Except both of these characters could suppress their strength. Boo was never claimed to be able to do this. The only time they misjudged his strength was when he was Fat Boo because Fat Boo could only draw on Pure Boo's strength when he was angry.
You are totally interpreting the Fat Boo increasing power, and all the things around...Nothing of this is explained...again...And why Kid Buu at this appearence couldn't be suppressed as all others ? :lol:
How is fusion inferior to his SSJ3 form exactly? Two SSJ children who are weaker than him could, by his own admission, beat Fat Boo easily. Goku and Vegeta's fusion would be much stronger than Gotenks' one and they would be able to fight as SSJ2's. So at this point whatever power Goku showed against Fat Boo is inferior to a regular SSJ fusion. Let alone a SSJ2 fusion. Goku couldn't have been fighting at much less than half of his strength when he fought Fat Boo either unless you don't believe in the 400x multiplier for SSJ3 because if he were fighting at something like 25% then he would be as strong as his SSJ2 self. And we know that a SSJ2 non-fusion can't beat Fat Boo.
What I wanted to say is that Goku SSJ3 is stronger than Majin Buu, but he prefered to fuse with Gohan or Bejita (when he told this to Popo). So, he could prefer at this moment too to fuse with Bejita (he just saw the amazing power of Bejito) even if he could win against Super Buu. And to convince Bejita, he has to afraid him.
They are simply no match for Evil Boo's strength.
Have you read my previous post please ? You just always write without read me, it's going to be embarassing.
What are you on about? What I said about the statement about the Japanese translation is a fact. You can ask Herms or any other person who can translate Japanese. Plurals don't translate very well unless they are given context in the sentence. From what we get from the sentence it is impossible to determine whether Kibitoshin is talking about one Kaioshin or more than one Kaioshin.
Just to this : I don't know why you tell me all that, I know the translation since a long time (you didn't know Dragon Ball at this moment I think) and I never said that it was stated that all Kaioshins lowered Buu. I just said that my theory is acceptable too. And your last message prove that you don't understand this, and that you want to impose yourself. I told you my position, you don't want to understand, the debate is over for me. Too bad to see this kind of behaviour.
Last edited by BejitaSama on Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by BejitaSama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:36 pm

If Kid Buu was stronger then Super Buu and Buuhan then Goku would have fused with Vegeta again or he would be too scared to fight Kid Buu if he was too scared to fight Super Buu in Buu's body.
First of all, where did I say that Pure Buu was stronger than Buu Gohan ??? :lol: It's becoming crazy here !
Second, you just don't have read my post to write this message. I explained how I see things, you just have to read and UNDERSTAND it, not agree.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:44 pm

BejitaSama wrote:Just to this : I don't know why you tell me all that, I know the translation since a long time (you didn't know Dragon Ball at this moment I think) and I never said that it was stated that all Kaioshins lowered Buu. I just said that my theory is acceptable too. And your last message prove that you don't understand this, and that you want to impose yourself. I told you my position, you don't want to understand, the debate is over for me. Too bad to see this kind of behaviour.
I am fine with you thinking that it means both. But the fact is we have two legitimate statements, that are never contradicted, about Boo's power as Pure Boo and Evil Boo that completely rule out this vague comment and the vague belief that Goku was on about just size rather than Ki. It's not like I'm imposing myself on you. You're free to believe what you want. But I just don't understand why people ignore the two statements that aren't even vague about this discussion just to put Pure Boo above Evil Boo. It's frankly puzzling. I just want to know why it is you believe it when the manga literally tells us that Goku can beat Pure Boo but he can't beat Evil Boo.

And honestly I am a very harsh critic for my behaviour on these forums. I've even asked the moderators how I check whether I have a strike against myself because I sometimes feel I go to far. But in all of these debates I've never received a strike because I think I have conducted myself in the right manner. At least the moderators seem to think so otherwise they would have given me strikes by now. So I would appreciate it if you wouldn't call my behaviour bad.
BejitaSama wrote:You are totally interpreting the Fat Boo increasing power, and all the things around...Nothing of this is explained...again...And why Kid Buu at this appearence couldn't be suppressed as all others ?
I'm not interpreting. This is pretty much a fact. Gohan literally says he could take Fat Boo before Fat Boo gets angry at Dabra. Then Goku even confirms that his power increased. So he is a lot like Gohan. Compared to this we never get any statements about Evil Boo or Pure Boo that his power is being suppressed. You're free to think that they can suppress. But nothing of this nature is ever expressed. And if they could suppress then Goku would have been much more cautious in his claims. Because it is impossible to determine whether you can beat an opponent in the Dragon Ball universe unless they are at full power.
Last edited by Hitiro on Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by rereboy » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:46 pm

BejitaSama wrote:No lines directly compared Pure Buu to Super Buu. The only information we have is that Pure Buu is clearly stronger than Majin Buu, and that Super Buu has greater body and skills than Majin Buu.
Goku stated that he and Vegeta has no chance against Super Buu.

Goku and Vegeta were relieved and confident when Buu turned into Kid Buu.

Goku stated that they would do it without the Potara and, after fighting Kid Buu for a while, Goku was still convinced that he could kill Buu if he got to his 100% SSJ3.

As you see, there are lines.

..And ?
And, as shown, what you said wasn't accurate.

Yeah, just like Goku was quite confident at the beginning of his fight against Freeza, like Bejita was confident against Perfect Cell,...
And you hide the fact that Goku and Bejita showed confidence after commented the size of Buu's body. So, you are clearly interpreting here too. It's impossible for you to prove that they were talking about Ki. The logic of the dialog tends to go with my position.
In those fights there's acknowledgment later on that the enemy surpasses them and that their confidence was ill conceived. Goku was still confident, after fighting Kid Buu pretty much on equal terms, that he could beat him with his 100% SSJ3. So, there's no acknowledgment that Goku and Vegeta were far off their expectations for Kid Buu at all. Goku only fails to defeat Kid Buu because he underestimated the effects of SSJ3 on a living body. Nothing contradicts the confidence that Goku had that they could have won if not for that.

What...? I'm not inventing, I just repeat what Goku said when he broke the potara :lol: He justify this by the argument I used in my previous post. I can't be more precise, so if you can't understand my position...
Your position relies on them having nothing left to lose. Like I demonstrated, they knew that still had the Dragon Balls in Namek so the situation isn't different at all from when they decided to fuse before, except for Buu's power. And what Goku said (Viz edition) as he was breaking the earing was what I posted. He even says that Kid Buu is "on his own", implying that Buu is on a disadvantage compared to before.
I don't ask you to agree, I just want you to stop imposing your point of view. You could be more humble. Again, nothing is really clear in Buu saga, you just have to admit it.
Responding to you, not agreeing with you, pointing out what I believe are errors and mistakes in your arguments is not "imposing my opinion".

And there's plenty of vague stuff on the Buu saga but Pure Buu being the strongest Buu or being stronger than Super Buu is not really one of them. Nothing in the manga contradict Goku's lines and his confidence regarding him.

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BejitaSama
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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by BejitaSama » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:56 pm

Goku stated that he and Vegeta has no chance against Super Buu.

Goku and Vegeta were relieved and confident when Buu turned into Kid Buu.

Goku stated that they would do it without the Potara and, after fighting Kid Buu for a while, Goku was still convinced that he could kill Buu if he got to his 100% SSJ3.

As you see, there are lines.
For the last time, to be clear : you deny lines that stated that Kaioshin Ki cannot be used to revive Buu, that Potara stopped inside Buu and that at least Dai Kaioshin lowered Buu. Your tactic is to say "hey, they don't say South Kai lowered Buu, so he totally can increased his power!" but it's IMO a clear contradiction when we look at facts exposed before. Why South Kaioshin would added power while East Kaioshin , potora and Dai Kaioshin are incompatible ?

Furthermore, there's also the fact that IMO South Kaioshin can't be strong enough to make a big difference between Pure Buu and Super Buu.

So, I think I can interpret the sentence of Goku. And as I described before, there are a lot of reasons to explain why he said that.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by rereboy » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:08 pm

BejitaSama wrote:
For the last time, to be clear : you deny lines that stated that Kaioshin Ki cannot be used to revive Buu, that Potara stopped inside Buu and that at least Dai Kaioshin lowered Buu. Your tactic is to say "hey, they don't say South Kai lowered Buu, so he totally can !" but it's IMO a clear contradiction when we look at facts exposed before. Why South Kaioshin would added power while East Kaioshin , potora and Dai Kaioshin are incompatible ?

So, I think I can interpret the sentence of Goku. And as I described before, there are a lot of reasons to explain why he said that.
I don't deny them at all. I just don't see how there's any logical way to achieve any probable conclusion from that in regards to how strong Super Buu is compared to Kid Buu considering the multitude of possibilities for those things to happen.

You just have a personal theory based on vague interpretations of how kaioshin energy works on Buu that goes against clear and direct statements of characters in regards to Super Buu and Kid Buu's power and I'm just pointing it out to you.

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Re: How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:13 pm

BejitaSama wrote:For the last time, to be clear : you deny lines that stated that Kaioshin Ki cannot be used to revive Buu, that Potara stopped inside Buu and that at least Dai Kaioshin lowered Buu. Your tactic is to say "hey, they don't say South Kai lowered Buu, so he totally can increased his power!" but it's IMO a clear contradiction when we look at facts exposed before. Why South Kaioshin would added power while East Kaioshin , potora and Dai Kaioshin are incompatible ?
You're making the supposition that absorbing and being revived are the exact same thing? It's like saying sports drinks are bad if you're in critical condition in hospital. So they must also be bad for you in general. Even though a runner will drink a sports drink to perform better on the day.
BejitaSama wrote:Furthermore, there's also the fact that IMO South Kaioshin can't be strong enough to make a big difference between Pure Buu and Super Buu.
South Kaioshin must have been strong enough to force Boo to absorb him in the first place. Otherwise why would Boo absorb him? Furthermore, why would Boo absorb the Dai Kaioshin if it was going to make him weaker again if the first absorption didn't increase his strength?
BejitaSama wrote:So, I think I can interpret the sentence of Goku. And as I described before, there are a lot of reasons to explain why he said that.
Only your "keeping Vegeta alive" one actually made sense. I'm happy to hear what other reasons you have for Goku pretending he couldn't win against Evil Boo.

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