Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Everything you say is based on the assumption that when Goku says that Oob is as amazing as he expected, he means that he is as strong as he expected. This isn't the only possible interpretation, he could also mean that he is the amazing guy that is capable of rivaling, and even surpass him.

[h0kuten]

Everything you say is based on the assumption that when Goku says that Oob is as amazing as he expected, he means that he is as strong as he expected. This isn't the only possible interpretation, he could also mean that he is the amazing guy that is capable of rivaling, and even surpass him.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, the wording is vague enough to be open to clarification. At that point in the manga, perhaps Goku was expecting someone like Boo or even stronger, given his experience with Piccolo. Without preparation, Oob was not quite the callenge Goku was expecting, thus not happening Super Saiyan (1/2/3), but there was no doubt Oob was quite promising if properly trained. As for nowadays, I could say that perhaps Goku was expecting a great challenge because, if Freeza had the potential to become stronger than Super Saiyan God, what someone like Boo would be capable of if he dedicates himself? See? Goku's hype is justified in both cases.

[h0kuten]

Yeah, the wording is vague enough to be open to clarification. At that point in the manga, perhaps Goku was expecting someone like Boo or even stronger, given his experience with Piccolo. Without preparation, Oob was not quite the callenge Goku was expecting, thus not happening Super Saiyan (1/2/3), but there was no doubt Oob was quite promising if properly trained. As for nowadays, I could say that perhaps Goku was expecting a great challenge because, if Freeza had the potential to become stronger than Super Saiyan God, what someone like Boo would be capable of if he dedicates himself? See? Goku's hype is justified in both cases.

Using Frieza isn't applicable in this scenario. Frieza wasn't looked at as anything significant 20 years ago. Goku wanted to Kid Buu to come back as a good person to help him train and once Goku pisses him off, he's sure Uub is Buu because he's as amazing as he expected him to be. In regards to strength.

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, the wording is vague enough to be open to clarification. At that point in the manga, perhaps Goku was expecting someone like Boo or even stronger, given his experience with Piccolo. Without preparation, Oob was not quite the callenge Goku was expecting, thus not happening Super Saiyan (1/2/3), but there was no doubt Oob was quite promising if properly trained. As for nowadays, I could say that perhaps Goku was expecting a great challenge because, if Freeza had the potential to become stronger than Super Saiyan God, what someone like Boo would be capable of if he dedicates himself? See? Goku's hype is justified in both cases.

Using Freeza isn't applicable in this scenario. Freeza wasn't looked at as anything significant 20 years ago. Goku wanted to Kid Buu to come back as a good person to help him train and once Goku pisses him off, he's sure Uub is Buu because he's as amazing as he expected him to be. In regards to strength.

Why not? The second scenario is about taking the post-2013 material into account. Given that Goku acknowledged Oob as amazing as Boo, he could be factoring his latent potential. Perhaps something more challenging than Golden Freeza.

[h0kuten]

Yeah, the wording is vague enough to be open to clarification. At that point in the manga, perhaps Goku was expecting someone like Boo or even stronger, given his experience with Piccolo. Without preparation, Oob was not quite the callenge Goku was expecting, thus not happening Super Saiyan (1/2/3), but there was no doubt Oob was quite promising if properly trained. As for nowadays, I could say that perhaps Goku was expecting a great challenge because, if Freeza had the potential to become stronger than Super Saiyan God, what someone like Boo would be capable of if he dedicates himself? See? Goku's hype is justified in both cases.

Using Freeza isn't applicable in this scenario. Freeza wasn't looked at as anything significant 20 years ago. Goku wanted to Kid Buu to come back as a good person to help him train and once Goku pisses him off, he's sure Uub is Buu because he's as amazing as he expected him to be. In regards to strength.

Why not? The second scenario is about taking the post-2013 material into account. Given that Goku acknowledged Oob as amazing as Boo, he could be factoring his latent potential. Perhaps something more challenging than Golden Freeza.

Golden Frieza didn't exist 20 years ago. It can't reference something that didn't exist. Trying to twist Goku's 'amazin' statement is showing signs of bias.

[Hugo Boss]

You misunderstood. There are two scenarios. One where Golden Freeza doesn't exist and one where he does. Oob can be as strong as the situation needs him to be, and so Goku. That way, "as amazing as expected" doesn't mean more than "as amazing as to make me enjoy the fight". You choose what fits better with your tastes.

[Super_Vegetto]

I don't know about EOZ Base Goku being as strong as boo saga SSJ3 Goku, seems a bit far fetched , in Super Saiyan 1 seems more reasonable. Then again in 7yrs he acquired 2 new transformations, Vegeta also acquired one so it can be possible especially since he was waiting for someone strong, so that maybe pushed him further. I'm also sure Vegeta regained his #2 spot
I think it is safe to say that Oob is at least boo saga SSJ2 tier, otherwise I don't think Goku would have been so hyped and with training he could reach Kid Boo level or even surpass him especially with Goku as his mentor.

[h0kuten]

I don't know about EOZ Base Goku being as strong as boo saga SSJ3 Goku, seems a bit far fetched , in Super Saiyan 1 seems more reasonable. Then again in 7yrs he acquired 2 new transformations, Vegeta also acquired one so it can be possible especially since he was waiting for someone strong, so that maybe pushed him further. I'm also sure Vegeta regained his #2 spot
I think it is safe to say that Oob is at least boo saga SSJ2 tier, otherwise I don't think Goku would have been so hyped and with training he could reach Kid Boo level or even surpass him especially with Goku as his mentor.

So why could Gotenks get around 60-100x more powerful in mere 10x gravity training with hour long intervals and Goku can't get 400x stronger in 10 years of training with special training equipment provided by King Kai and the additional 10x gravity?

[Sanity's_Theif]

What I get from all this is that either the manga never intended to portray Gotenks and Gohan as much if at all stronger than Goku, even if it did end up doing that. Or that Toriyama decided to try to retconn that when Kid Buu showed up.

In either case I think maybe everyone's notions about Gotenks and Gohan being far above Goku were never really the case in the first place. I've never even heard of anyone saying that outside of this forum to be honest.

[h0kuten]

What I get from all this is that either the manga never intended to portray Gotenks and Gohan as much if at all stronger than Goku, even if it did end up doing that. Or that Toriyama decided to try to retconn that when Kid Buu showed up.

In either case I think maybe everyone's notions about Gotenks and Gohan being far above Goku were never really the case in the first place. I've never even heard of anyone saying that outside of this forum to be honest.

Some people have Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST 5,000x stronger than Goku Ssj3.

Try this out:

Spoiler:

Goku
~Ssj3 400

Fat Buu
~Full Power 250

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 200
~Ssj 10,000

Gotenks Ssj-Post Expected
~Ssj 20,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 30,000
~Ssj 1,500,000
~Ssj2 3,000,000
~Ssj3 12,000,000

I just made Gotenks 30,000x stronger than Goku Ssj3 by following all the Manga implications.

[Darkprince410]

So why could Gotenks get around 60-100x more powerful in mere 10x gravity training with hour long intervals and Goku can't get 400x stronger in 10 years of training with special training equipment provided by King Kai and the additional 10x gravity?

Because you're assuming that he did all his training under those same conditions, when there's nothing indicating that's the case. In addition, the boys are prodigies when it comes to strength, so it only makes sense that a fusion between them would have even more going for them as far as increases in strength.

Some people have Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST 5,000x stronger than Goku Ssj3.

Even in the more extreme versions of how powerful Gotenks is in comparison to Goku, you're still looking at him being around 400x stronger than Goku in the same form, not anything drastic like thousands of times stronger, and I've yet to see anyone pose it being anything remotely that huge of a difference.

[Sanity's_Theif]

What I get from all this is that either the manga never intended to portray Gotenks and Gohan as much if at all stronger than Goku, even if it did end up doing that. Or that Toriyama decided to try to retconn that when Kid Buu showed up.

In either case I think maybe everyone's notions about Gotenks and Gohan being far above Goku were never really the case in the first place. I've never even heard of anyone saying that outside of this forum to be honest.

Some people have Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST 5,000x stronger than Goku Ssj3.

Try this out:

Spoiler:

Goku
~Ssj3 400

Fat Buu
~Full Power 250

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 200
~Ssj 10,000

Gotenks Ssj-Post Expected
~Ssj 20,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 30,000
~Ssj 1,500,000
~Ssj2 3,000,000
~Ssj3 12,000,000

I just made Gotenks 30,000x stronger than Goku Ssj3 by following all the Manga implications.

Even in the more extreme versions of how powerful Gotenks is in comparison to Goku, you're still looking at him being around 400x stronger than Goku in the same form, not anything drastic like thousands of times stronger, and I've yet to see anyone pose it being anything remotely that huge of a difference.

The fact that that would be the case if it were actually true makes me believe even more that it was never intended to be portrayed that way in the first place, it's far too ridiculous.

[h0kuten]

What I get from all this is that either the manga never intended to portray Gotenks and Gohan as much if at all stronger than Goku, even if it did end up doing that. Or that Toriyama decided to try to retconn that when Kid Buu showed up.

In either case I think maybe everyone's notions about Gotenks and Gohan being far above Goku were never really the case in the first place. I've never even heard of anyone saying that outside of this forum to be honest.

Some people have Gotenks Ssj3 Post-ROST 5,000x stronger than Goku Ssj3.

Try this out:

Spoiler:

Goku
~Ssj3 400

Fat Buu
~Full Power 250

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 200
~Ssj 10,000

Gotenks Ssj-Post Expected
~Ssj 20,000

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 30,000
~Ssj 1,500,000
~Ssj2 3,000,000
~Ssj3 12,000,000

I just made Gotenks 30,000x stronger than Goku Ssj3 by following all the Manga implications.

The fact that that would be the case if it were actually true makes me believe even more that it was never intended to be portrayed that way in the first place, it's far too ridiculous.

It is ridiculous. Hence why I posted it to show just how absurd it is.

[Sanity's_Theif]

It is ridiculous. Hence why I posted it to show just how absurd it is.

Then I have trouble believing that anyone would think it absurd to believe that it was never actually the case in the first place.

[h0kuten]

It is ridiculous. Hence why I posted it to show just how absurd it is.

Then I have trouble believing that anyone would think it absurd to believe that it was never actually the case in the first place.

Try Neoseeker, it's loaded with people who conform to some of those types of ideals.

My own gap is only roughly, 10x.

[dbgtFO]

What I get from all this is that either the manga never intended to portray Gotenks and Gohan as much if at all stronger than Goku, even if it did end up doing that. Or that Toriyama decided to try to retconn that when Kid Buu showed up.

In either case I think maybe everyone's notions about Gotenks and Gohan being far above Goku were never really the case in the first place. I've never even heard of anyone saying that outside of this forum to be honest.

I agree. I don't even think Gohan is twice as strong as Goku and I don't think Gotenks surpassed Goku until he went SS3. I just base it on Kid Buu plus the power of South Kaioshin being stronger than Super Buu and that can't happen, if Gotenks and Gohan are multiple times stronger than either of those two at least if you follow a strict addition logic unless otherwise noted in regards to Majin Buu's absorptions.
Given the choice between consistent multipliers that would bloat their battle powers to the extreme or inconsistent multipliers that keep their battle powers in check and at least make the Genkidama scene make a bit more sense, I just say fuck it and go with the latter.

Spoiler:

Dai Kaioshin: 4
"Majin" Vegeta: 6
South Kaioshin: 12
Mr. Buu: 16
Evil Buu: 20
SS2 Gotenks: 24
SS3 Goku: 24
Kid Buu: 24
SS3 Gotenks: 32
Super Buu: 32
Buff Buu: 36
Ultra Gohan: 40
Power needed to destroy Kid Buu: 48.
Genkidama: +70

[Truhan]

I usually put Mystic Gohan only twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga, which doesn't mean that Goku couldn't close that gap, or surpass him. SSJ3 Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) would be only 1.5 times more than SSJ3 Goku, and a fraction of Mystic Gohan. Ultimately, Goku could unleash his Full Power and surpass SSJ3 Gotenks as well, but that's before he goes into the Room of Spirit and Time. Scaling down numbers close to Namek saga:

Goku = 3.000k | SSJ2 = 300.000k | SSJ3 = 1.200.000K | Full Power = 1.920.000k
Gohan = 2.250k | Hidde Potential = 2.400.000k
Vegeta = 2.500k | SSJ2 = 250.000k | Majin = 300.000k
Trunks = 250k | Goten = 225k | Gotenks = 4.500k | SSJ = 225.000k | SSJ3 = 1.800.000k
Fat Buu = 300.000k | Angry = 600.000k | Super Buu = 1.200.000k | Kid Buu = 1.200.000k

NOTE: the Fusion formula that was used consists of (A + B) * 10. The post-RoSaT kids could have more power than Full Power SSJ3 Goku or an equal amount as SSJ3 Gotenks, which depends on their increase. Putting Goten at 240k helps us say that he is 10.000k times less than Mystic Gohan, for example.

[Hugo Boss]

What I get from all this is that either the manga never intended to portray Gotenks and Gohan as much if at all stronger than Goku, even if it did end up doing that. Or that Toriyama decided to try to retconn that when Kid Buu showed up.

In either case I think maybe everyone's notions about Gotenks and Gohan being far above Goku were never really the case in the first place. I've never even heard of anyone saying that outside of this forum to be honest.

I agree. I don't even think Gohan is twice as strong as Goku and I don't think Gotenks surpassed Goku until he went SS3. I just base it on Kid Buu plus the power of South Kaioshin being stronger than Super Buu and that can't happen, if Gotenks and Gohan are multiple times stronger than either of those two at least if you follow a strict addition logic unless otherwise noted in regards to Majin Buu's absorptions.

Given the choice between consistent multipliers that would bloat their battle powers to the extreme or inconsistent multipliers that keep their battle powers in check and at least make the Genkidama scene make a bit more sense, I just say fuck it and go with the latter.

In agreement too. I believe that at some point the story tried to happen without Goku by suggesting a stronger new generation, but in the end it was decided that Majin Boo's tenacity could be only surpassed by the nakama power of Goku, if not by the discarded fusions with Vegeta. Either way, I will wait until DBS shows how Goku and Vegeta are portrayed after their individual training.

[Taskmaster]

I just assumed that it was baseless hype that was never proven true. The glaring omission of comparisons to Goku's power (who was the benchmark) were missing, and the new powerups didn't amount to much. Even when Goku returns, Vegeta can't do much but gush about how powerful and awesome Goku is, somehting that wouldn't carry any weight if Goku wasn't relevant.

I've always assumed that the multipliers are different for everyone, and that the daizenshuu was correct with it's STRONG implication that Gohan hadn't yet surpassed Goku. I mean, it's still strange that people hold on to that view, even after the statements made in Super...