Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Daizenshuu 2 states that Ultimate Gohan can still transform further into a Super Saiyan, however, even without transforming his power still surpasses Gotenks. Ultimate Gohan is rarely shown transforming into a Super Saiyan form throughout his appearances, though he does when found as a necessity as seen in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods when he helped contribute to making Goku become a Super Saiyan God. Later, not keeping up with his training during Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection ‘F’, he became a Super Saiyan when fighting Shisami and effortlessly beats him. Gohan going Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form was powerful enough as to where it concerned and made the newly empowered Frieza to attack and kill Gohan so his men could have a chance as Frieza himself says Gohan alone is more than capable of beating all 1000 men by himself. Gohan was brought back to life by Piccolo moments later."
Gohan going Super Saiyan in his Ultimate Form during FNF was powerful enough as to where it concerned and made the newly empowered Frieza attack and kill Gohan. So, Gohan obviously got a power increase from using Ultimate + Super Saiyan.
El Manga Legendario suggests that Ultiamte is more a part of Base Gohan than a transformation
"After being free from the Z sword, Ro Kaioshin succeeded to bring the latent power of Gohan. The look on his face changed and became much more sharp and implacable. He acquired such strenght that he didn't need to convert into a Super Saiyan to put Bu agaisnt the ropes.
Spoiler:
The Bu mentioned here was referring to Super Buu
What this is saying is that Gohan didn't [need to go Ultiamte Super Saiyan to defeat Super Buu.
Here is basically the transformations of Gohan as I see them:
Base Gohan (Supressed)
|
Base Gohan 100%
/ \
Ultiamte SSJ
/ \
Ultimate SSJ SSJ2
What are your opinions? Could Gohan go Super Saiyan in his Ultimate form?
No. I don't think he could have. The reason why is, if he was getting the crap beating out of him by Buutenks, then if he knew he could go Super Saiyan, he would go SSJ to stop getting the crap beaten out of him.
Tanooki Kuribo wrote:If Toriyama joined Kanzenshuu, he'd probably forget his login name and password.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:No, why would it? It's fiction. The strength of the characters is not possible to reach in reality.
I mean, you're pretty open about looking at cartoon porn. Why would you do that? It's fiction. The proportions of these women are not possible to reach in reality.
That's true, but Gohan went Super Saiyan in Dragon Ball GT and Revival of F. This happens after the Buu Saga, so maybe Gohan got stronger and then some how achieved Super Saiyan on top of his Ultimate form.
I believe the idea is that the Super Saiyan transformation brings out portions of the users dormant power. However after Elder Kai's ritual, every ounce of latent potential within Gohan's body was released. Meaning if he wanted to, he could still transform and get the blond hair as seen in Battle of Gods, but from a battle-perspective the transformation is useless because Gohan already has access to all his power.
That is not to say Gohan can't continue training and grow stronger. This merely means he has reached a wall, and it's up to him to break through it, as characters often do. There were many points where Goku reached the apex of his potential; the first was with the Ultra Divine Water given to him by Korin, which was specifically stated to bring out the user's full potential, IF they can survive it's poisonous effects. Then by training with Kami he was able to go passed his full potential by training his ki instead of muscles, and by training with King Kai he again pushed passed his potential with gravity training. The list goes on. Goku reaches the apex of his potential all the time. So there's no reason to believe Gohan can't continue getting stronger.
Although that was all rather off-topic I suppose. Sorry.
I assume he can't (or couldn't until the Super Saiyan God ritual possibly negated it, my headcanon) because the requirement to tap into his Ultimate form was "erm...do that Super whatchamacallit".
I'd say that if the trigger for his Ultimate form is going Super whatchamacallit, then he couldn't go Super whatchamacallit.
If he could he'd have kicked the over loving shit out of Buu which obviously didn't happen so the clear answer is he can switch between them but can't stack them up.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
I don't think Gohan's Super Saiyan transformations stack on top of his Ultimate Form.
If you're looking for a concrete in-Universe explanation, there isn't one. In the Manga, Gohan achieves his 'ultimate' state after the Elder Kai's ritual and being asked to turn Super Saiyan - for many years, this was taken as implicit proof that the form prevented, or at least superseded his ability to turn into a conventional Super Saiyan.
In Dragonball GT, Gohan was depicted as a Super Saiyan without any explanation, fueling years of debate on the matter, which only seemed to grow when promotional material for Battle of Gods appeared to depict Gohan as using his Super Saiyan form. After fan backlash over Twitter, it is likely that Toei re-coloured Gohan to depict him using his ultimate form for battle against Beerus, before then also showing him as a Super Saiyan for the God ritual. Whether intended or not, this is the first in-Universe verification that Gohan can use both either his ultimate or Super Saiyan forms.
As for RoF, however, who knows? It's implied that Gohan's lack of training has made him so rusty that, initially, he only speculates that he thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan - not to mention a Super Saiyan 2. There is no clear definition on the matter, but there's certainly no evidence that Gohan is able to stack his forms to become stronger - the indication is the opposite, and that years of neglecting his training have left him weak.
'Multiculturalism means nothing in Japan, for every outside culture must pass first through the Japanese filter, rendering it entirely Japanese in the process.' - Julian Cope.
Last time I checked, Ultimate Gohan was form of its own and the most powerful state he could accomplish. Going Super Saiyan would just a downgrade at this stage because the transformations don't stack up. There's never been a reason why that is the case, but seeing that his Ultimate form is the strongest form he could achieve, it's just accepted among the fandom that any other form or transformation apart form that is weaker in comparison, and as a result, incompatible with his Ultimate form.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
ShadowDude112 wrote:No. I don't think he could have. The reason why is, if he was getting the crap beating out of him by Buutenks, then if he knew he could go Super Saiyan, he would go SSJ to stop getting the crap beaten out of him.
IIRC, the elder Kai told Gohan he can transform into a Ssj but it's unnecessary because he already tapped into that power without transforming.
And if he transforms into a Ssj It wouldn't have made him stronger its just a waste of energy to transform. Goku and Vegeta sometimes don't transform if it doesn't make any difference in battle to save more Ki
Gohan: H- how do I become the mightiest of warriors, with strength beyond my limits? Elder Kaiōshin: Ah, well, you transform into that Super-whatever-you-call-it often enough. That's the gist of it. You just have to get yourself fired up. Gohan: The gist of becoming Super Saiyan, right? Understood!
It makes it sound like Ultimate replaces Super Saiyan as the power up motion is the same. Maybe by the time RoF came around, he was so buried in his studies he just took the power up he was most comfortable with using, and did Super Saiyan. Or the Ultimate form is temporary and fades if the subject doesn't train (the way muscles do).
I don't believe Daizenshuu 2 definitively states he can still transform into Super Saiyan, it sounds more like it's reiterating what Goku says after Gohan powers up.
In Battle of Gods, even a fetus Pan was conveyed to go Super Saiyan. So I wouldn't attribute Gohan using the form again on account of his own conscious actions. The fact that all the Saiyans become Super Saiyan at precisely the same time only reinforces to me that it was caused by some magical effect of the ritual.
In Revival of F, Gohan's base form eyes are not even drawn completely outlined anymore. So if they're shown to take liberties with the original material in that regard, it's no surprise he was depicted as a Super Saiyan, and not his Ultimate state.
Ultimate is not a transformation, it's a power up. Just like the Super Kami Water is not a transformation, and neither is the Grand Elder-potencial-unlocking.
Post-Old Kaioshin ritual-Gohan is shown transforming into Super Saiyan in BoG, RoF, and GT, so there you have it.
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Sandubadear wrote:Ultimate is not a transformation, it's a power up. Just like the Super Kami Water is not a transformation, and neither is the Grand Elder-potencial-unlocking.
Post-Old Kaioshin ritual-Gohan is shown transforming into Super Saiyan in BoG, RoF, and GT, so there you have it.
It is a pseudo-transformation.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
I feel like the simplest answer is yes, but it does absolutely nothing; it's essentially a nightlight at this point for him. Gohan is already as strong as he'll ever be. In a way, that's kind of a nice ending for him if you don't take into account post-manga material. The pacifist/scholar character has reached his limits and no amount of training or transformations will change that. He's finally free. I guess I will also throw out my feelings that "Ultimate" is not a real power-up or form as it's taken in the video games. It's just Gohan with all latent abilities brought to the surface.
I haven't seen F yet, so no idea how it's handled there.
Keen Observation of Dragon Ball Z Movie 4's Climax wrote:Slug shits to see the genki
