Daizenshuu EX DB wiki...again

[The Time Traveller]

I'd love to be a part of this, just give it a sensible name and I'll join.


We should also put how to pronounce things on pages, like for the Saiyan page put pronounced.

This is how I'd do Saiyan:

Saiyan (サイヤ人, Saiya-jin ) [pronounced /saɪˈɑn/, or in the English Dubs /seɪɛn/]

something like that.

[Dayspring]

I'm of the mindset that no FUNimation things even need be mentioned at all unless it's necessary for full understanding of whatever article. Yes, I understand many of us happen to live in territories where FUNimation happens to distribute the show, but why should they get mentioned instead of the Mexican dub? The French dub? The Cantonese dub?

Plus, so as to not confuse dubbies, we could simply leave this exact post on the homepage, and use dub names as search criteria for the proper names. For example, "Torah" or "Toma" being put into a search engine will lead to Toma's page.

EDIT: Or have a "can't find what you're looking for? Check the Dub Conversion Page to see if you're using the right search criteria!" DCP will be a page showing all the different names of all the different dubs.

[VegettoEX]

or in the English Dubs /seɪɛn/]

Not every English dub pronounces it that way, though .

I like Dayspring's ideas.

You can see how I would have terrible control issues with a project like this .

[The Time Traveller]

or in the English Dubs /seɪɛn/]

Not every English dub pronounces it that way, though .

Well.. most of them... Ok, two of them.

The AB Groupe English Dub uses Space Warriors, like the other AB Groupe Dubs, and the Philippines English dub uses Saiya People right?

[Herms]

While naming schemes are certainly a big subject of controversy, I don't want anyone to think that the only problem I or anyone else has with the DB Wiki as it is now is simply that is uses dub names. Here's a few problems I found with just a minimal amount of looking around:

--There’s a ton of information that seems to be simply made up. For instance, here’s part of the opening of its page on Super Saiyan 3:

This form is unique compared to the other forms because of the fact that it doesn't require intense emotion to transform, only increased ki capacity. It is technically a forced transformation, like Super Saiyan 2nd and 3rd Stage, but its substantial increase allows it to be considered a true transformation.

Where the 3rd Stage Super Saiyan's purpose was 100% utilization of physical stamina, the purpose of the Super Saiyan 3 transformation is to increase the utilization of ki…

There’s no source given for any of that.

--It’s article on the Kais has the common misinformation about the Kaio, saying that there are 5 Kaio for each galaxy, when the series says there are 5 total, 1 for each galaxy and 1 to watch over those 4.

--Uranai Baba’s ghost usher, Piccolo, and Mister Popo are counted as deities, as are all of the evil dragons from GT. Well, I suppose Popo's status is debatable. Oh, and of course it says that Popo is a genie.

--As has been mentioned, there’s no distinction made between things from filler, things from the dub, or anything else. Here’s on of the items in the trivia section on the page for King Kai:

Gregory says King Kai knows everything. Yet, he doesn't seem to know that Nameks only drink water, telling Piccolo "You're gonna need more than just water." He also is unaware of Cell until Goku mentions him, and thinks Frieza is dead after his supposed death by Goku (Both times). He also thought Goku was dead when Namek blew up. Goku even noted this inconsistency in Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan.

There’s no mention that Gregory is a filler character, making any inconsistency between what he says and the main events of the series mainly par for the course. There’s no context provided for when Kaio tells Piccolo “you’re gonna need more than just water” (seriously what the heck? I assume it’s a dub line, but even then, without any context provided, I imagine even dub fans would find that confusing). And maybe I’m being forgetful, but what does it mean by “Both times” Freeza had a “supposed death by Goku”? The second item of trivia has some of the same problems:

King Kai told Goku to avoid Frieza at all costs as his power level was nowhere near his. However, he wanted Krillin (who was already dead, and could have been erased from existence) to go to Earth and fight Majin Buu (when it seemed Vegito was dead) when their attack difference was greater than that of Goku and Frieza at the moment.

Again, it fails to even mention that the part where Kaio tells Kuririn to fight Boo is filler. It also makes the unsupported assertion that the difference between Boo and Kuririn was greater than that between Goku and Freeza at the time. I guess it might seem like a logical thing to assume, but with no official battle powers for anything post-Freeza, it’s a meaningless statement.

--Despite that fact that it’s article on the DB timeline says it is the official one from Daizenshuu 7 and the GT Perfect Files, it lists GT as being 10 years after the end of Z, rather than 5, which is what the Perfect Files timeline says. Their timeline article also has some of the standard mistranslations (saying that Kame-sennin found Sea Turtle as a baby a year before the series began, when this is actually when the already grown Sea Turtle gets lost hunting for mushrooms; saying that 100 million years ago is when the earliest “Kais” existed, rather than that being the age of Kaio’s planet; etc).

It also has quite a few new dates inserted that weren’t in the Daiz 7/GT timeline. Most of these are fine in that they’re based of dates stated in the series, like Tapion being sealed away 1000 years ago (I did basically the same thing for my suped-up timeline), but it should be noted somewhere that these dates weren’t part of the Daiz 7/GT timeline.

Lots more, but I'm tired now.

[The Time Traveller]

What would we do for Episode pages? Rip off Kanzentai?

Oooh, I just noticed another very stupid thing on the DB Wiki...

"The New Threat" is the pilot episode of the anime series Dragon Ball Z.

What name should we use for Tsufuru-jin?
I like Tsuful from the Blue Water Dub, Tuffle just sounds retarded.

Though to preserve the pun, Tsufru would sound best. Or maybe for Races we'll just use the Japanese spellings.

[VegettoEX]

The more I read around on all the other fansites and Wikis, the more sad I get .

It would be best to do once we port over the forum to godofchaos' server (which... got delayed, but we're still up and running)... but would it be possible to share the registered user database with this forum? Could we just use the established user base and logins and tie them together? That would cut down on user maintenance, administration...

[Rod]

post

I've noticed the actual problem with articles like that is the combination of wrong dub lines, filler material and assumption.

A good way to differentiate canon with not canon would be color coding, like a lighter shade of gray for filler or to not include them at all

[Tweaker]

Plus, so as to not confuse dubbies, we could simply leave this exact post on the homepage, and use dub names as search criteria for the proper names. For example, "Torah" or "Toma" being put into a search engine will lead to Toma's page.

EDIT: Or have a "can't find what you're looking for? Check the Dub Conversion Page to see if you're using the right search criteria!" DCP will be a page showing all the different names of all the different dubs.

"Dubbies" as a term kind of bothers me here... remember that we're trying to make a factual wiki; as such, I think it is not only fair, but required to also make mention of FUNimation terms, names, and the like for the sake of clarification for those who are familiar with the Japanese terms and names, but willing to learn about them. The way I demonstrated a mention of dub terms above is a fair and non-obstructive way of making a reference--and subsequent clarification--of the dub name for Tenshinhan in contrast to his proper, Japanese name.

Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that we should document everything that has basis in fact. The wiki would obviously favor the Japanese aspects of the series, as those are the proper and original sources from which information should be considered the ultimate canon and primary source of factual information, but providing dub contrast and even a list of inconsistencies introduced by the dub within the main article is a good way to both keep the article balanced as well as clear up what has actual basis in fact about the subject being described. Make sense?

It would be best to do once we port over the forum to godofchaos' server (which... got delayed, but we're still up and running)... but would it be possible to share the registered user database with this forum? Could we just use the established user base and logins and tie them together? That would cut down on user maintenance, administration...

Such a thing is certainly possible for Invision Power Board, but I'm not sure if there is any bridging software available for phpBB, let alone this version of phpBB. I will give it a look, though.

[Innagadadavida]

@Tweaker

Well the way I see it, a Daizenshuu EX Wiki would be only for the original. It can be the answer to the dub-based DBWikia, providing only the facts and no convoluted "this dub does this but that dub does that." Perhaps on the side there can be an "Also known as:" very small inconspicuous mention of dub names. Like Piccolo is also known as Satan in the French dub, Chi-Chi is also known as Milk in the Mexican dub, and Tenshinhan is also known as Tien in the FUNimation English dub.

But the articles themselves should be absent of dub terms.

[Rod]

There could be an alternate name section in their info boxes

Like this one http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Roshi

But, yeah, the less dub the better

[Tweaker]

Well the way I see it, a Daizenshuu EX Wiki would be only for the original. It can be the answer to the dub-based DBWikia, providing only the facts and no convoluted "this dub does this but that dub does that."

Well, as an English wiki, my only idea was that there should be textual mentions of the English dub names or alternative term used to describe something.

Perhaps on the side there can be an "Also known as:" very small inconspicuous mention of dub names. Like Piccolo is also known as Satan in the French dub, Chi-Chi is also known as Milk in the Mexican dub, and Tenshinhan is also known as Tien in the FUNimation English dub.

Well, yeah, this is kind of what I was getting at, though I'm not exactly sure if it's really any duty of ours to report any information for a dub that isn't from an English dub. We are English, after all; a Spanish or Mexican Dragon Ball wiki would be more suited to contain information about, say, the Mexican and Spanish dubs of the show. You get the idea.

But the articles themselves should be absent of dub terms.

Any acknowledgment of dub terms would be only to state their existence for the sake of contrast--not to use them in common description. And, once again, this would only be in the article for the term being described. I think it goes without saying that I'm not going to make a wikilink to "Tien" in the Chaozu article or something like that--it's not his proper name, and he therefore should be not be referred to by that name.

I should stress that I am not, under any circumstances, trying to advocate the casual use of dub names and terms in a descriptive, factual account of any facet of the Dragon Ball series; I'm merely trying to provide means of contrast for those who are not well-versed with the Japanese terms. I know that when I first joined this forum, I had never known anything but the dub, and to a large extent I still feel ignorant--though undoubtedly more informed--of the original series that I'd grown up with for so long. A mention on an article that says that Paikuchan's dub name is "Pikkon" when I click on it so I can connect the two names certainly wouldn't kill us, and it would do a lot of good as well.

[VegettoEX]

Well, yeah, this is kind of what I was getting at, though I'm not exactly sure if it's really any duty of ours to report any information for a dub that isn't from an English dub. We are English, after all; a Spanish or Mexican Dragon Ball wiki would be more suited to contain information about, say, the Mexican and Spanish dubs of the show. You get the idea.

I guess what I fail to understand is why just because the wiki's primary language would be English, it has to note things about FUNimation's particular dub of the series... which, incidentally, just happens to be in English. It's no more or less notable than any other dub of the franchise either prior, during or since. "Conflict of interest" is a huge thing on any aiming-to-be-factual wiki / collection of information, and placing any kind of priority on FUNimation's version of the show doesn't seem to make much sense when the focus is the original.

I should stress that I am not, under any circumstances, trying to advocate the casual use of dub names and terms in a descriptive, factual account of any facet of the Dragon Ball series

Oh, I totally get that.

I guess I don't see the point of including FUNimation things above or instead of stuff from any other dub/reversioning of the franchise, other than to pander to an equally-English-speaking-audience.

Call it elitist, but if the problem is with the other wikis / sites out there... why mirror them in a way?

EDITING IN EXTRA STUFF:

I guess I see it as sort of a slippery-slope. If you mention that FUNimation never called him "Son Goku" (minus Burst Limit), do you have to mention Harmony Gold calling him "Zero"? That was also English and from North America. If you do that, should you also mention Sangoku? That's from an equally-notable version of the franchise. But wouldn't it make more sense to just have an entry about the Harmony Gold version, rather than litter the rest of the site with that information? If you do that, wouldn't it then also make sense to just have an article about the FUNimation treatment of the series, rather than littering the rest of the site with that information?

MORE LAST FINAL TOTALLY MEAN IT EDIT:

The more we talk about this, the more I want to do it... and host it as a sub-site of Daizenshuu EX... I'm even forming draft versions of a mission statement in my head... >.>

[Dayspring]

Well, yeah, this is kind of what I was getting at, though I'm not exactly sure if it's really any duty of ours to report any information for a dub that isn't from an English dub. We are English, after all; a Spanish or Mexican Dragon Ball wiki would be more suited to contain information about, say, the Mexican and Spanish dubs of the show. You get the idea.

I guess what I fail to understand is why just because the wiki's primary language would be English, it has to note things about FUNimation's particular dub of the series... which, incidentally, just happens to be in English. It's no more or less notable than any other dub of the franchise either prior, during or since. "Conflict of interest" is a huge thing on any aiming-to-be-factual wiki / collection of information, and placing any kind of priority on FUNimation's version of the show doesn't seem to make much sense when the focus is the original.

Not to mention the fact that FUNi has more than one dub, meaning their random changes aren't even consistent.

[Rod]

MORE LAST FINAL TOTALLY MEAN IT EDIT:

The more we talk about this, the more I want to do it... and host it as a sub-site of Daizenshuu EX... I'm even forming draft versions of a mission statement in my head... >.>

Yay! looks like it's finally happening

[Tweaker]

I guess what I fail to understand is why just because the wiki's primary language would be English, it has to note things about FUNimation's particular dub of the series... which, incidentally, just happens to be in English. It's no more or less notable than any other dub of the franchise either prior, during or since. "Conflict of interest" is a huge thing on any aiming-to-be-factual wiki / collection of information, and placing any kind of priority on FUNimation's version of the show doesn't seem to make much sense when the focus is the original.

I think I'm being misunderstood on a grand scale here, because I'm not placing priority on the FUNimation dub in any way, shape, or form--it just more or less happens to be the most common audience that we as a primarily-english-speaking Dragon Ball community, have to cope with. I think it is therefore fair to mention the terms in passing for the sake of documentation, but by no means should they be used as a substitute for the actual terms. I'm trying to think of a way to explain why this isn't going to get in the way of the actual facts at all (because it isn't), and I'm having a hard time with it.

Okay... let's take a look at Sonic Retro again. There's a pretty widespread debate about the name of Dr. Eggman, the main antagonist in the series, as he has two names, used in the US and Japan, respectively--the Japanese Dr. Eggman, which is the original name of the character when the series was conceptualized and still is to this day, and the US-based Dr. Robotnik, which seems to be most widely known among the series' American audience.

Now, thinking purely from an objective standpoint, Dr. Eggman is the name of the character--period. However, considering that a majority of our audience is American and therefore familiar with the Robotnik moniker, it makes sense to also acknowledge the Robotnik name in some form, but not in a way that attempts to acknowledge it as the original, or even the actual name of the character; he is Dr. Eggman, and in terms of pure factual account, that is what should be considered the truth of the matter. Dr. Robotnik is simply acknowledged as an alternative term used in localization for the US.

Taking the above situation in mind, the article should say something along the lines in its introducting sentence of:

'''Dr. Eggman''', (referred to as '''Dr. Robotnik''' in the US version of the ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' continuity) is the primary antagonist in the ''Sonic the Hedgehog''' game series. He first debuted in ''[[Sonic the Hedgehog (game)|Sonic the Hedgehog]]'' in 1991 for the [[Sega Mega Drive]] [...]

Do you see the general flow of information here? Actual name (alternate localization in parentheses), followed by factual information about the character. Non-intrusive, informative, and to the point.

If you do that, wouldn't it then also make sense to just have an article about the FUNimation treatment of the series, rather than littering the rest of the site with that information?

I suppose that's acceptable, but I don't feel like it makes the information very accessible where it should be considered the most pertinent. Even Wikipedia will generally mention alternative names or titles in the opening paragraph in some form, perhaps linking to further information... it's a very standard practice, and it doesn't take away from true factual account present in the articles.

At the end of the day, it is your decision... I'm just trying to offer some objective advice as someone who has experience with these types of wikis--and a successful one, at that!

[Herms]

Although with Doctor Eggman, hasn't every American release of a Sonic game since Sonic Adventure gone with "Eggman" rather than "Robotnik"? But then the Japanese games starting using "Robotnik", at least with Eggman's grandfather. All rather weird.

Oh right, the topic: I think having pages for the different dubs and releases of the series would be interesting. But maybe for each character page, there could be a drop-down list of their names in various translations and dubs as well?

[Innagadadavida]

If you do that, wouldn't it then also make sense to just have an article about the FUNimation treatment of the series, rather than littering the rest of the site with that information?

I think there should be a strong emphasis on neutrality. Obviously FUNimation has fucked up majority with Dragon Ball, but opinions and bias undertones should be avoided on the Wiki.

I don't mean to say that FUNimation's treatment of the series is the only controversial issue within the Dragon Ball fanbase. There are other things that should also have a strong emphasis of neutrality placed upon. Just some examples of the top of my head: Dragon Ball GT, Anime filler, timelines, powerlevels, Dragon Ball Evolution, ext.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

In regards to other names from other versions, it could be done like the Transformers wiki, where there's a list of different international names.

For example, from Optimus Prime's article:

Nicknames: Autobot commander / Chief / Big Boss / Roller[1]
Pre-Prime name (cartoon): Orion Pax
Pre-Prime name (Dreamwave): Optronix
Japanese name: Convoy
Japanese name (Return of Convoy): Star Convoy
Japanese name (Combat Hero): Convoy Missie Trailer
Japanese name (Laser Rod): Battle Convoy
French-Canadian & Chzech name: Optimus Primus
Hungarian name (The Movie): Optimusz Fővezér / Optimusz Prájm (pronounced: prīm)
Italian name: Commander
Portuguese name (Portugal comics): Optimus Supremo ("Optimus Supreme")
Portuguese name (Brazil cartoon): Líder Optimus ("Leader Optimus")
Portuguese name (Brazil comics): Supremus Absolutus
Russian Tv dub name (6th channel): Оптимус Прайм
Taiwanese name: Tīh-ghŭ (鐵牛, literally "Iron Ox" or "Iron Bull", a kind of vehicle in early days and rural area)
Chinese name (Taiwan): Jr-tsūn (至尊, "Prime")
Cantonese name: O Baak Man (柯柏文)
Chinese name (China): Qing Tian Zhu (擎天柱, "Pillar Proping the Sky")

[SSJ2bardock]

Oh right, the topic: I think having pages for the different dubs and releases of the series would be interesting. But maybe for each character page, there could be a drop-down list of their names in various translations and dubs as well?

Sounds like a lot of work