1. Base Goku and Vegeta absorbing and surpassing SSJG in their base has been literally stated multiple times in both the anime and manga. There is nothing to debate at this point, with base Copy-Vegeta one-shotting SSJ3 Gotenks, then base Goku matching him and other feats.dragon boss z wrote:When did he say this?DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: Yet he still thought he could be a match to Beerus and beat him as a SsjG. Trying to ignore something the show has already given us is not really an argument.
All you are doing is abusing statements that are literally just made up by the episode writter that weak. That stuff isn't coming from Toriyama. If you want to take all statements 100% literally you have to admit current final form Frieza's supernova is only planet level and everyone weaker than that move isn't planet level.If all you're gonna do is ignore the refutes then sorry, but you're repeating yourself. I'll continue arguing with you as soon as you start arguing with me properly. Not trying to be offensive but this should be a fair argument. I'm not using headcanon or anything, you ignored this as well: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17060&p=1463404#p1463404
I do have evidence.NOT ONCE has this even been mentioned. That's utter headcanon. I don't even know where you got that from. This isn't an argument if you have zero evidence to support yourself with
1. Goku would of went ssj2 or ssj3 on Beerus and made himself stronger if he could of. Since he didn't that means he couldn't at the time.
2. In an interview Toriyama said Goku wouldn't go SSG again because he absorbed the power, but now he is going SSG again so that means he must not of absorbed all of the power.
3. In the BoG movie Goku had to go SSG one last time to stop Beerus' attack, meaning SSG was the strongest power he had.
4. Goku and Vegeta went ssj on Frost, the trio de danger, and a bunch of other fodder. If you really think any of those fodder are above SSG level, I really don't know what to say.
During the fight it was, but afterwards it looked like his power went back down as Krillin was able to survive a full power base punch to his face, and Vegeta caught up with him after 4 months. Training for 4 months isn't nearly enough time for their base to go from below Frieza level to above SSG. Even Frieza, who never trained a day in his life and is a prodigy only grew about that much. The saiyans have been training for their whole lives, they can't make magic gains like that anymore.That's even more assumption. His Power NEVER lowered down but instead started to gradually increase. Again, you're assuming something happened out of thin air
Like I said, SSG had to of been Goku's max power because if not that means he could of multiplied ssj3 to try and Beerus, but even with his world on the line he didn't. And in the movie version SSG Goku was confirmed to be 60% of Beerus, so if Goku truly absorbed all of the power into his ssj form, then if he would of went ssj2 or ssj3 he would of been stronger than Beerus. But Goku clearly couldn't of done that or he would of.I don't understand where you're getting all this. I've clarified all of this in my refute, but you ignored it. Again, you're just assuming this happened when in fact something else happened, which I showed evidently
Even if I completely accept Goku absorbing SSG into his ssj form, that only means his ssj form is SSG level. His base form would still be weaker.
I know Beerus was heavily holding back, but how would Goku know by how much?Because Beerus is far stronger than Goku and he was holding back which I showed in my refute in the first part which includes Goku's training with Vegeta. Many evidences show that Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG. Goku is far too weak in comparison to Beerus, as SsjG Goku BoG was fodder to him. Goku realized that at the end of the battle and by Whis.
And tell me how Goku would know Beerus is hundreds of times stronger than him? Beerus never told him that and actually told Goku he was going all out. Obviously we as the audience knows, but Goku shouldn't know.Nice assumption. Issue is, though, Goku wouldn't challenge someone many times above him. Beerus is shown to be far above Goku
Yes, it was too long. You should try and make your points more concise. But I did read the part you are talking about and Beerus never said "base form" just because they were in their base when he said it means nothing. He was clearly talking about their full power.And in base form as well. I already clarified this, but you obviously didn't read it all and just skimmed through it. Maybe it was too long?
I agree that episode made no sense, but so does a lot of Super.Even more speculation. Had trouble with Rusty base Gohan? When? What? If you mean When Goku fought Gohan on Episode 75 then that proves nothing. Goku would obviously holding back, and 1 easily arguable evidence is not disproving over 50 solid evidences
This is the reason we can't see eye to eye. Roshi clearly isn't mean to be that strong. You are one of the few people who would say Roshi is probably beyond anything in Z. Roshi can't just secretly train and become stronger than ssj3 Goku or ssj Vegito.Roshi has gotten stronger in the Tournament of Power that he reached a level where he can sense God Ki. As much as it doesn't make sense, it's proven, so disregarding it because "I don't believe it!" isn't an argument (Goku was also holding back against Roshi. Roshi only made Goku's fist tingle, which at the very least makes Roshi far beyond Gotenks Ssj3 and probably any thing above in DBZ)
Piccolo almost beat Frost, and Frost was stated to be no match for final form Frieza by Champa.Frost is a God Tier Character for being able to combat with Base Goku. Stop trying to assume the level of characters without any Basis. What makes you think Frost isn't a God Tier if he fought Base Goku? Nothing.
Buu only trained for a few hours. At best he would a couple times stronger than before.Fit Buu >>>>>>>>>>>> Good "fat" Buu. Comparing Both is an invalid argument.
Goku and Vegeta went ssj against the trio and then they even went SSB to finish them off. 2 of them are weaker than Fat Buu, and one of them is stronger. So Goku and Vegeta went SSB against 3 opponents, two of which are weaker than Fat Buu, lol.Trio De Dangers? The only character I remember being able to fight Base Goku truthfully is Bergamo, and the rest is just obviously a demonstration of Goku holding back against them, unless they got stronger. That would make Basil > Bergamo, by your logic, despite Base Goku kicking Bergamo easily.
I don't think I sad the U6 saiyans were Buu saga tier. Imo they are above that, but definitely not god tier. Also Kefla was so strong because of Kale's hidden potential.You don't choose what's to be right and what's to be wrong and meant. What we're given and shown is what we follow. Kefla's base being above SsjG means their base forms are God Tier considering that Base Goku > SsjG BoG, and if their bases are Buu Saga Tier they'd he Vegito Buu Saga Level which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case. Saiyan Beyond God Theory is not even possible in the slightest as it's contradicted on multiple occasions
It was never proven.Goku's base being above SsjG is proven and is never contradicted directly. Most new characters are written to be a match for Goku and Vegeta this way, SHOWN by how Whis stated that if Goku and Vegeta don't get "this" strong, they won't be able to see the world which lies ahead, which is where we are now
We have to roll with feats. You are talking statements out of context and trying pretty much wanking every character to as strong as they could possibly be.Bad writing isn't an excuse to refute something or anything. Since it's bad writing, we have to Roll with it
If Goku's base is really SSG tier or higher, he just holds back on everyone, period. It's also possible they decided to retcon his base being SSG level and bring back the SSG form like the manga did.
Characters like Frost clearly aren't supposed to be SSG tier and all the fodder in Super aren't magically above everyone from Z. Fat Buu beat a powered up Basil, Gohan and Goku said Krillin couldn't even beat base Basil, Krillin pushed Goku to go ssj. That's enough proof that Goku goes ssj against people who are even weaker than fat Buu.
2. Current Fat Buu is much stronger than he was in the Buu saga. You are forgetting that transformations in this series are multipliers, not set tiers. Just because Buu didn't use his fit form against Basil doesn't mean their power levels are only in the Buu saga range.
3. The fact that base Cabba was shown to be anywhere near base Vegeta (as admitted by Vegeta himself in both the anime and manga) is enough proof that the U6 saiyans are god tier.
4. Just because a character uses a transformation doesn't necessarily mean they needed to, since DB characters can suppress their powers in any form. As shown by MSSJ Goku and Gohan during the 10 day wait for the Cell Games. Goku was clearly holding back with Krillin and 18, but 17 is definitely SSJB tier especially with his feats in the ToP.
5. Frost is clearly WAY stronger than Z-Frieza, as his fight with U6 arc Piccolo (who scales to at least Mystic Gohan) shows.
Its pretty clear by that by now all of Z is fodder compared to the majority of the ToP fighters.