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[JulieYBM]

Looks like I'm a crackerjack. I thought we were talking about Slug being stronger than Freeza, which is obviously not what the topic was.

[Fox666]

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[Herms]

Is the King Cold sketch by AT?

No.

And are those his notes which say that he is somewhat inferior to Freeza?

There's nothing to indicate that they are.

[Fox666]

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[FNF]

It's possible that the Daizenshuu entry is not based on anything Toriyama said, but rather directly based on the manga.

Besides what I already mentioned about Freeza being superior to Cold - in the manga we hear of two incredible Kis; that the other resembles Freeza; that one is even greater than the other; and that Freeza was expecting that Goku would never be able to defeat him and his father; so it's easy to conclude that Cold is close to Freeza in power, but still inferior.

I still think he should be weaker than organic Freeza. King Cold basically flat-out states that whoever can defeat Freeza (organic) is the strongest in the universe.

I see it as;

Freeza (mecha): 1.65
Freeza (oraginic): 1.4
King Cold: 1.2

[lash]

Elaborate on the 100x Kaioken.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Goku used Kaio-ken x100 against Slug, it wouldn't make much sense. Let's say he did use it, we would have:

SSJ2 = Kaio-ken x100 < Slug?!
x50 Kaio-ken = SSJ > Pseudo-SSJ > Slug?!

So, Slug is weaker than SSJ, but stronger than SSJ2?!

[Darkprince410]

It's possible that the Daizenshuu entry is not based on anything Toriyama said, but rather directly based on the manga.

Besides what I already mentioned about Freeza being superior to Cold - in the manga we hear of two incredible Kis; that the other resembles Freeza; that one is even greater than the other; and that Freeza was expecting that Goku would never be able to defeat him and his father; so it's easy to conclude that Cold is close to Freeza in power, but still inferior.

I don't recall any actual "size" comparison between the two kis ever being mentioned in the manga. The only two comments that can come close to comparing the two that I can think of are Tenshinhan's and Gohan's comments where they directly or indirectly make reference to Freeza, then another large ki with him.

Sure Gohan later corrects Yamcha when the latter thinks that the level of power Freeza is currently exhibiting is his maximum (commenting that what they sense now isn't it and it can get much much stronger), but it still doesn't directly compare the two.

If Goku used Kaio-ken x100 against Slug, it wouldn't make much sense. Let's say he did use it, we would have:

SSJ2 = Kaio-ken x100 < Slug?!
x50 Kaio-ken = SSJ > Pseudo-SSJ > Slug?!

So, Slug is weaker than SSJ, but stronger than SSJ2?!

Why would it necessarily be that the "Kaiou-ken 100x" is weaker than Slug? Given that the only definitive thing Goku does after activating the Kaiou-ken was quickly driving a hole through Slug's body in the same way he did to Piccolo Daimao as a child, I saw no indication whatsoever that Slug was still more powerful than him (the fact he didn't die can simply be chalked up to being Namekian rather than being stronger than the attack).

I don't necessarily believe it was that powerful, but it could be and still fit within reason. It's not like Slug was unfazed by an attack Goku threw at him while energized by this level of Kaiou-ken or did something else that would indicate that he was actually stronger than Goku was when he was using it, so having it as a one-time deal due to Piccolo donating his ki fits for me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why would it necessarily be that the "Kaiou-ken 100x" is weaker than Slug? Given that the only definitive thing Goku does after activating the Kaiou-ken was quickly driving a hole through Slug's body in the same way he did to Piccolo Daimao as a child, I saw no indication whatsoever that Slug was still more powerful than him (the fact he didn't die can simply be chalked up to being Namekian rather than being stronger than the attack).

Oh yeah, I had forgoten about that...

[Perfect]

This raises quite the error. If there's not too much a difference in Broly and Gogeta, then by the logic of these scans, wouldn't this make Cell, Buu, Majin Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku very close in power? x.x

Look on the bright side - official proof that Broly isn't equal to Gogeta.

lol. The only ones who didn't already know that are the Youtube army who adore Broly.

I would say realistically he's in-between the Buu arc SSjin2's and Fat Buu.

inb4thisturnsintoBrolythread.

More like Dabra and Cell would rip his dead limp body limb from limb.

Edit to not go of course with a new post: Hahaha, no. Adult Gohan was by far weaker than his child counterpart. Cell was roughly more or less equal to Gohan during the beam struggle and would slaughter Broly. Dabra on the other is probably more or less somewhere around Broly; though his magical abilities and cunning wit would easily be more than enough to beat him.

[FNF]

This raises quite the error. If there's not too much a difference in Broly and Gogeta, then by the logic of these scans, wouldn't this make Cell, Buu, Majin Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku very close in power? x.x

Look on the bright side - official proof that Broly isn't equal to Gogeta.

lol. The only ones who didn't already know that are the Youtube army who adore Broly.

I would say realistically he's in-between the Buu arc SSjin2's and Fat Buu.

inb4thisturnsintoBrolythread.

More like Dabra and Cell would rip his dead limp body limb from limb.

Except, he hammered SSjin2 Gohan into the ground and he is said to be the 'strongest Saiyan' by the Broly movies' producer which at least mean LSSjin Broly (movie 10[strongest appearance])>Enraged SSjin2 Kid Gohan and Kid Gohan wasn't much weaker than Prince of Destruction Vegeta/SSjin2 Goku.

[Silkman3003]

Even if someone wants to argue that Cell is above Broly, Dabura really wouldn't do shit

1. If you believe that Gohan wasn't a Ssj2 against Broly

Then your pretty much saying that he wasn't ssj2 against Dabura either. Because there is much less evidence that he was Ssj2 against Dabura, compared to Broly.

And Gohan did much better against Dabura, compared to fighting Broly


Only way Dabura would beat Broly is if Broly stands there and waits for his spit to touch him.

Also FNF, can you give me the link in which you got that "strongest saiyan" quote?

[Kaboom]

Let's try to keep the thread on the topic of these new numbers, if we can please? I know there might not be much left to say about it, but we're dangerously close here with this Dabra/Broly/Cell stuff to veering off-course to something so old and overdone it makes "over 9000" seem fresh.

[Herms]

Random thought on Gogeta's number: I said before that I thought they probably derived Broli's by multiplying Super Saiyan Goku's by ten and got Coola's by multiplying Freeza's by four. I think with Gogeta maybe the idea was that he's stronger than Broli, but not enough to be an entire multiple of his number, so they just tacked an extra billion on: 1.4 billion to 2.4 billion. Then they added an extra 100 million to keep it from being too transparent. Same thing with Broli and Coola: Broli is 1.4 billion instead of a flat-out 1.5 billion, and Coola is 470 million rather than an even 480 million.

There's a note from Toriyama at the bottom of the second page of the Coola/Broli/Gogeta scans, but it has nothing to do with the BPs or anything. He says that he considers the movies to be a separate dimension from the main storyline, and that his only role in them was to just touch up some of the character designs and whatnot, so he's able to enjoy them just like a regular audience member. He said virtually the same thing in his Daizenshuu 6 interview.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Oh hey, how about for now we say that the 2.5 billion is Gogeta's base form? That'd work at least a little bit better.

Why would they include a battle power for Gogeta's base form when it was never even shown in the movie? If I was you, I'd stop trying to twist the official battle powers, if this is legit, into making some sense.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I wasn't entirely serious about that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, I wasn't entirely serious about that.

Oh, OK. My mistake.

[FNF]

Even if someone wants to argue that Cell is above Broly, Dabura really wouldn't do shit

1. If you believe that Gohan wasn't a Ssj2 against Broly

Then your pretty much saying that he wasn't ssj2 against Dabura either. Because there is much less evidence that he was Ssj2 against Dabura, compared to Broly.

And Gohan did much better against Dabura, compared to fighting Broly


Only way Dabura would beat Broly is if Broly stands there and waits for his spit to touch him.

Also FNF, can you give me the link in which you got that "strongest saiyan" quote?

Thanks to Herms;
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz06.p ... rials#link

"Broli was just that strong, so at the end of "Burn Up!!~", I figured he wasn't dead. At any rate, it's because he was set up as the strongest Saiyan."

Logically at his strongest appearance which was in movie 10, he would still be the strongest Saiyan to have existed. Considering Broly was still in control of FPSSjin Goku, Goten and Gohan's Kamehameha until Trunks interfered, it makes complete sense that Broly should dwarf the main timeline SSjin2's apart from post Z sword Gohan.

edit: Just seen Kaboom's post.

Discussion over

[Fox666]

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[FNF]

I feel like "strongest of the saiyans" is because he is the Legendary Super Saiyan, not literally the strongest of all. But I guess he was the strongest in the first movie, and the sentence is in the past.

But logically it still applies in movie 10 where he is even stronger than what he was in movie 8. This interview is specifically speaking about his appearance in movie 10 after all.