When Goku arrived on Namek (Power Level)

[Hugo Boss]

Then why have him use Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2? Why not just call it the same thing?

It seems like a Toriyama-created plot hole. During the Vegeta fight, Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 seem to be treated as two different things, though the narrator specifies that Kaio-ken doubles Goku's battle power (so what does KK x2 do?). Then in the Freeza fight, Tenshinhan explains that the Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku 10 times as powerful, which obviously implies that the KKx2 makes him 2 times as powerful...meaning it should be the same as the plain old Kaio-ken.

Apparently, there are a bunch of video games where regular Kaio-ken makes you x1.5 stronger, though this goes against what the narrator says in the manga.

I always had the impression Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 don't necessarily mean the same thing though they are intended to be so. King Kai didn't master the technique in the first place, then I suppose his normal output would be somewhere below "times 2" and the maximum output (the one he has aspired to reach) about "times 2". We can see as Goku powers-up his powerlevel is gradually increasing, I wonder if he could stop somewhere below 180,000 and called this Kaio-ken.

[ABED]

It wasn't a matter of strength to lift the bus, it was a matter of leverage (is that the right term?).

I know the manga enough to say that Goku wasn't 3.000.000 but 300.000, and that the KK x 10 was used the whole time since the beginning of the fight. This is not Freezamite vs Daizenshuu, this is Manga vs Daizenshuu, and I go with the manga.

Goku would have no chance against Freeza. Yeah he has Kaio-ken x10, but he doesn't use it the entire time.

[freezamite]

It wasn't a matter of strength to lift the bus, it was a matter of leverage (is that the right term?).

I know the manga enough to say that Goku wasn't 3.000.000 but 300.000, and that the KK x 10 was used the whole time since the beginning of the fight. This is not Freezamite vs Daizenshuu, this is Manga vs Daizenshuu, and I go with the manga.

Goku would have no chance against Freeza. Yeah he has Kaio-ken x10, but he doesn't use it the entire time.

Leverage has never been a problem when it comes to lift other big objects, it was a matter of filler being filler.
That being said, Goku had the same chances against Freezer him being 300.000 or 3.000.000, because of course, if he was 300.000 Freezer's maximum power was at around 12.000.000 and not 120.000.000 like the Daizenshuu says.
We discussed this KK activation in another thread and in fact I think that this discussion would be better placed there. I had multiple unanswered "impossible to explain (to me) contradictions" regarding the KK being activated at the middle of the fight, and if someone explains them to me then I will accept that the KKx10 wasn't activated the whole time.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=25428

Here's the topic, although those "impossible to explain contradictions" were all in the context of Goku activating KKx10 after Freezer powered up at 50% of his maximum strength (maybe you have a different theory regarding the KKx10 activation, in which case it's possible that some (if not all) of those "contradictions" or "conflicting points" wouldn't apply to what you believe).

[ABED]

Leverage has never been a problem when it comes to lift other big objects, it was a matter of filler being filler.

What big heavy objects?

[freezamite]

Leverage has never been a problem when it comes to lift other big objects, it was a matter of filler being filler.

What big heavy objects?

Another bus, on another filler chapter involving Videl fighting some robbers, this time lifted by Gohan with one hand.

[Duo]

This thread isn't whether or not Son Goku had a power level of 300,000 or 3,000,000. I've had that stupid debate (against your position, of course) enough times in my life. The images in the manga do not indicate Goku using any level of Kaio-ken against Freeza until after the "50%" thing happens. The truth is in the artwork. Kaio doesn't mention that Goku has been using the Kaio-ken x10 until after we see him clearly use it in the manga and then gets pummeled regardless. The end. Please start another thread if you'd like to pursue this subject further.

[ABED]

Then what purpose does this thread serve if all you wanted was to point out the picture?

[Duo]

Then what purpose does this thread serve if all you wanted was to point out the picture?

To give you the chance to defend your position as Goku being 180,000 at base when he arrived on Namek. See: The title of the thread.

[freezamite]

This thread isn't whether or not Son Goku had a power level of 300,000 or 3,000,000. I've had that stupid debate (against your position, of course) enough times in my life. The images in the manga do not indicate Goku using any level of Kaio-ken against Freeza until after the "50%" thing happens. The truth is in the artwork. Kaio doesn't mention that Goku has been using the Kaio-ken x10 until after we see him clearly use it in the manga and then gets pummeled regardless. The end. Please start another thread if you'd like to pursue this subject further.

Look, as I said, the KK activation at that point has several problems in my opinion. If the discussion is so "stupid" to you I'm sure you'll be able to say something more "intelligent" than that what's clearly drawn as a normal flying aura is the activation point of a KK.
And no, I won't start another thread because one was already started and this is why I put here the link, to have this discussion there and not going off-topic here.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=25428


Now on topic, the 180.000 units it's clearly after a KK activation that doubles Goku's power, so 90.000 it's the number unless Goku didn't go all out with his strength after using the KK.

[Herms]

This is not Freezamite vs Daizenshuu, this is Manga vs Daizenshuu, and I go with the manga.

No, it's your interpretation of the manga versus other peoples' interpretation of the manga.

[freezamite]

This is not Freezamite vs Daizenshuu, this is Manga vs Daizenshuu, and I go with the manga.

No, it's your interpretation of the manga versus other peoples' interpretation of the manga.

That's better than the "Freezamite vs what's official", but then, if those who support this interpretation can't answer those contradictions I think I found on that theory, it means that this concrete stance or interpretation contradicts the manga, thus not being a valid interpretation.

[Draken]

This is not Freezamite vs Daizenshuu, this is Manga vs Daizenshuu, and I go with the manga.

No, it's your interpretation of the manga versus other peoples' interpretation of the manga.

That's better than the "Freezamite vs what's official", but then, if those who support this interpretation can't answer those contradictions I think I found on that theory, it means that this concrete stance or interpretation contradicts the manga, thus not being a valid interpretation.

Riddle me this : Goku uses KKx2/x3/x4 on Vegeta, and every single use without exception causes Goku visible strain and is quite tiring. Goku leaves the gravity chamber upon arriving at Namek and proclaims he might be able to use up to KKx10 now. Might, as his maximum. Yet he can now suddenly use an "invisible kaioken" with absolutely no strain and remain completely calm and composed? And use it continuously without rest? Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin, and Freeza all saw Goku and the Z-warriors were all in awe of Goku's power. Piccolo + Vegeta = Both easily over one million, in awe of 300,000? Are you retconning KK being a short burst of power to suit your own needs? Because otherwise Piccolo would be like "Wait... Goku just dropped to WAY less than what he was putting out a moment ago... wait.... kaioken... GOKU YOU SCRUB."

[kuartus4]

I believe that the equivalence between kaiokien and kaiokenx2 was broken when goku invented kaiokenx3. IOW, the only reason they were the same thing was because the only kaioken multiplier that existed was 2. That goes out the window when higher multipliers come along.

That being said, I believe Goku's PL on Namek is closer to 60 thousand than 90 thousand. When Ginyu reads Goku with the scouter for the fisrt time and he shows up at just 5,000, he throws that out the window and estimates him to be at 60 thousand.

Later when Ginyu has Goku in the full nelson, Goku realizes he must use more than his base power in order to get free:

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P12.4
Context: Ginyu seems to have Goku at his mercy
Goku: “In…incredible power! I can’t get loose! N-no choice…In this case, I gotta use the Kaio-Ken…!”

IOW, he had to be using his full base power to recognize he had to go beyond that with the kaio ken to be able to break free. It makes no sense for him to realize he needs to use kaioken if he still hasn't even used all his base power. And also Goku said he would try to finish his fight with ginyu quickly so it makes no sense for him to be suppressed In his fight with him.



But then ginyu lets him go after realizing Goku is hiding power which he plans to reserve for his fight with Frieza :

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P13.4
Context: after Goku lets Goku go
Ginyu: “You’re hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn’t notice…?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don’t you underestimate me! I’m excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don’t do anything stupid!”

Ginyu then tries to estimate how much hidden power Goku has:

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000

Its important to remember that Ginyu is trying to estimate the extent of Goku's hidden power. Goku had NOT displayed such power level to Ginyu in their fight because Ginyu refers to it as being hidden. Most likely Ginyu had the ability to sense ki.

But we see that Goku had to have been using his full base power since he realizes he needed to go above it with kaioken. And yet Ginyu moments after estimates that Goku's hidden power will only take him as high as 85 thousand. This means Goku's full base power is below 85 thousand and certaintly not 90 thousand. I believe Ginyu was somehow sensing a bit of the power of the kaioken technique.

So we have

Goku's displayed power<Goku's Hidden power.

We have seen that Goku's displayed power had to be his full base power. And we have seen that Ginyu only estimated Goku's hidden power to take him to 85 thousand. So we get

Goku's full base power<85 thousand.

Now for the scan of goku beginning to use the kaioken technique




We clearly see that Goku was using the kaioken technique for a few moments before his power level hit 90 thousand. So Goku only reached 90 thousand until after using the kaioken technique for a few seconds. We even see the scouter beeping before it hits 90 thousand. Therefore Goku's base power cant be 90 thousand anymore than it can be 100 thousand or 110 thousand.

That's why I think goku was actually using kaioken x 3 when he reached over 180 thousand and his base is only a bit above 60 thousand. When Goku said kaioken he didn't specify a multiplier and since the kaioken =kaioken x2 equivalence was broken we cant just assume goku used kaioken x 2 when all the facts point away from it.

[Darkprince410]

The reason that Ginyu didn't start reading Goku's battle powers off till it hit 90,000 was due to him starting to exceed Ginyu's predicted levels. Likewise, remember that Goku still wasn't in a powered up state prior to using the Kaiou-ken. He was making quick bursts of strength, but he was still for the most part maintaining his strength at a very low level. Otherwise, Ginyu wouldn't have to keep guessing about Goku's strength and actually know where it stood.

Given that we've seen that the Kaiou-ken increases strength instantly when used, multiplying Goku's battle power instantly from the level that he was at, it's actually conceivable that the "slow" rise in his battle power wasn't the Kaiou-ken at work, but him raising his own base up "slowly" in order to shock Ginyu more. When Ginyu read the 90,000, that's actually because Goku's base was at 45,000, and then when he read off the 110,000, that's because Goku had raised his base up to 55,000, and so on. He couldn't control how quickly he powered up from the Kaiou-ken, but he could control how quickly his base battle power rose, and that's why the numbers seemingly started "below" 90,000.

Freezamite, I'm not going to start the argument in here, since we've already discussed it in the other topic before, but all your "counterpoints" have already been explained time and again, and you can't adhere to ratios to explain why one person should defeat another because the manga itself shows why that's never going to be the case. You have to take each fight differently with each character different, because what one character does to another doesn't automatically mean that it'd work the exact same way if you swapped characters around. People often use Vegeta taking out Dodoria as an indication of just how strong you need to be in order to take out an opponent, but in truth, that's a battle hardened warrior in comparison to a coward who likely has never fought anyone even remotely as strong as he is.

Likewise, with Raditz, him being 1,500 doesn't contradict or counter anything we see either. Vegeta basically established that Raditz was stronger than Goku, Piccolo, and Gohan, so at the least that puts him above 1,330, and the only reason he took so much damage from Gohan's attack was because he wasn't prepared for it and took it full on. A full force blow from someone somewhat close to you in strength is still going to do a decent bit of damage if you're unprepared, and Raditz was both 1) too shocked by Gohan's strength to anticipate the attack and 2) not anticipating Gohan even making an attempt to attack.

[kuartus4]

The reason that Ginyu didn't start reading Goku's battle powers off till it hit 90,000 was due to him starting to exceed Ginyu's predicted levels. Likewise, remember that Goku still wasn't in a powered up state prior to using the Kaiou-ken. He was making quick bursts of strength, but he was still for the most part maintaining his strength at a very low level. Otherwise, Ginyu wouldn't have to keep guessing about Goku's strength and actually know where it stood.

Given that we've seen that the Kaiou-ken increases strength instantly when used, multiplying Goku's battle power instantly from the level that he was at, it's actually conceivable that the "slow" rise in his battle power wasn't the Kaiou-ken at work, but him raising his own base up "slowly" in order to shock Ginyu more. When Ginyu read the 90,000, that's actually because Goku's base was at 45,000, and then when he read off the 110,000, that's because Goku had raised his base up to 55,000, and so on. He couldn't control how quickly he powered up from the Kaiou-ken, but he could control how quickly his base battle power rose, and that's why the numbers seemingly started "below" 90,000.

Ginyu would have judged Goku's PL based on Goku's bursts though. Yet when Ginyu surmises that Goku is hiding power, he estimates his full ability to be only at 85 thousand. Remember that Goku specifically said he wanted to end the fight quickly, so his bursts would have been at full base power and it makes no sense for his bursts to still be below full base power when the fight got serious, especially when he was trying to break out of Ginyu's hold.

So again we have Goku's performance<Goku's hidden power, which ginyu judges to only be 85 K. If Goku's performance was at 90 K, it would make no sense for Ginyu to estimate his hidden ability to be below that.

BTW, in his fight with Vegeta, Goku's increase in power was also "slow" when using the kaioken, since Bulma could steadily read his climb in PL with the scouter.

[Kaboom]

So his guess was about 5000 "points" off, and about 95% of Goku's true full power. That still seems like a pretty good guess to me. I don't see any need in that to second-guess Goku's 90k standard power.

[Darkprince410]

The reason that Ginyu didn't start reading Goku's battle powers off till it hit 90,000 was due to him starting to exceed Ginyu's predicted levels. Likewise, remember that Goku still wasn't in a powered up state prior to using the Kaiou-ken. He was making quick bursts of strength, but he was still for the most part maintaining his strength at a very low level. Otherwise, Ginyu wouldn't have to keep guessing about Goku's strength and actually know where it stood.

Given that we've seen that the Kaiou-ken increases strength instantly when used, multiplying Goku's battle power instantly from the level that he was at, it's actually conceivable that the "slow" rise in his battle power wasn't the Kaiou-ken at work, but him raising his own base up "slowly" in order to shock Ginyu more. When Ginyu read the 90,000, that's actually because Goku's base was at 45,000, and then when he read off the 110,000, that's because Goku had raised his base up to 55,000, and so on. He couldn't control how quickly he powered up from the Kaiou-ken, but he could control how quickly his base battle power rose, and that's why the numbers seemingly started "below" 90,000.

Ginyu would have judged Goku's PL based on Goku's bursts though. Yet when Ginyu surmises that Goku is hiding power, he estimates his full ability to be only at 85 thousand. Remember that Goku specifically said he wanted to end the fight quickly, so his bursts would have been at full base power and it makes no sense for his bursts to still be below full base power when the fight got serious, especially when he was trying to break out of Ginyu's hold.

So again we have Goku's performance<Goku's hidden power, which ginyu judges to only be 85 K. If Goku's performance was at 90 K, it would make no sense for Ginyu to estimate his hidden ability to be below that.

BTW, in his fight with Vegeta, Goku's increase in power was also "slow" when using the kaioken, since Bulma could steadily read his climb in PL with the scouter.

He's using bursts of his full strength, and since Ginyu can't get a reading on Goku's full strength with the scouter, at best Ginyu's able to just estimate roughly where he's at given his performance and how well Goku's doing in comparison to him. It's like asking someone to look at something and try to say how tall it is. Without specific measuring tools, you're going to have to take an educated guess that may be somewhat above or below what it actually is, but you'd still be considered accurate if you were in the ballpark. Ginyu, without his scouter, is the exact same way. He has no instruments to help him, so he has to just estimate based on what's available to him. Given that 90,000 is the number the Daizenshuu establishes him as being (as well as the fact that everything suggests that he was just using the Kaiou-ken), for Ginyu to estimate him at about 85,000 isn't far off, and in truth that estimate is far more correct if Goku were truly at 90,000 than at the 60,000 you believe him to be.

[kuartus4]

The reason that Ginyu didn't start reading Goku's battle powers off till it hit 90,000 was due to him starting to exceed Ginyu's predicted levels. Likewise, remember that Goku still wasn't in a powered up state prior to using the Kaiou-ken. He was making quick bursts of strength, but he was still for the most part maintaining his strength at a very low level. Otherwise, Ginyu wouldn't have to keep guessing about Goku's strength and actually know where it stood.

Given that we've seen that the Kaiou-ken increases strength instantly when used, multiplying Goku's battle power instantly from the level that he was at, it's actually conceivable that the "slow" rise in his battle power wasn't the Kaiou-ken at work, but him raising his own base up "slowly" in order to shock Ginyu more. When Ginyu read the 90,000, that's actually because Goku's base was at 45,000, and then when he read off the 110,000, that's because Goku had raised his base up to 55,000, and so on. He couldn't control how quickly he powered up from the Kaiou-ken, but he could control how quickly his base battle power rose, and that's why the numbers seemingly started "below" 90,000.

Ginyu would have judged Goku's PL based on Goku's bursts though. Yet when Ginyu surmises that Goku is hiding power, he estimates his full ability to be only at 85 thousand. Remember that Goku specifically said he wanted to end the fight quickly, so his bursts would have been at full base power and it makes no sense for his bursts to still be below full base power when the fight got serious, especially when he was trying to break out of Ginyu's hold.

So again we have Goku's performance<Goku's hidden power, which ginyu judges to only be 85 K. If Goku's performance was at 90 K, it would make no sense for Ginyu to estimate his hidden ability to be below that.

BTW, in his fight with Vegeta, Goku's increase in power was also "slow" when using the kaioken, since Bulma could steadily read his climb in PL with the scouter.

He's using bursts of his full strength, and since Ginyu can't get a reading on Goku's full strength with the scouter, at best Ginyu's able to just estimate roughly where he's at given his performance and how well Goku's doing in comparison to him. It's like asking someone to look at something and try to say how tall it is. Without specific measuring tools, you're going to have to take an educated guess that may be somewhat above or below what it actually is, but you'd still be considered accurate if you were in the ballpark. Ginyu, without his scouter, is the exact same way. He has no instruments to help him, so he has to just estimate based on what's available to him. Given that 90,000 is the number the Daizenshuu establishes him as being (as well as the fact that everything suggests that he was just using the Kaiou-ken), for Ginyu to estimate him at about 85,000 isn't far off, and in truth that estimate is far more correct if Goku were truly at 90,000 than at the 60,000 you believe him to be.

Actually his estimate was waaay off, and that was kinda the point. You have to remember that Ginyu is NOT estimating Goku's performance when he gave the 85 K figure. He is estimating Goku's hidden Power.


Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P13.4
Context: after Goku lets Goku go
Ginyu: “You’re hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn’t notice…?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don’t you underestimate me! I’m excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don’t do anything stupid!”


Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000

85 K is referring to Ginyu's estimate of the power Goku is hiding, i.e the power Goku had NOT displayed in their fight. That's why Goku's displayed power naturally has to be lower than that. And it is my belief that Goku was displaying his full base power versus Ginyu in order to end the fight quickly, which he couldn't btw.

I'll just come out and say that I think Ginyu had ki sensing abilities and was actually peeking into Goku's kaioken power. But he could only sense a tiny bit of it. He never imagined Goku could go all the way to 180 K and beyond. That's why his estimate of Goku's hidden power was so wrong. And there is no "kaioken" multiplier after Goku goes invents KKx3 as I explained in my first post. I cant take the Daiz figure as accurate when the manga info makes it clear its wrong.

[Darkprince410]

If you recall though, when he first judges Goku's strength, based on his ability to take out Baata and Recoome, he initially believes him to be able to go to 60,000 at most

Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P11.1-3
Ginyu: "In my estimation, his ability looks like it's about 60,000."
Jheese: "Six... 60,000!? H-he's a Saiyan!! Whoever heard of a Saiyan at 60,000...?!!"
Ginyu: “It’s not impossible. He could be like us, a super-gifted warrior, born as a mutant…Looks like this will be an unprecedentedly entertaining battle…I never thought the time would come for me to show my true power.”

So he, from the get go, is going in to the fight assuming that Goku is capable of that level of strength, and is able to instantly raise and lower it to avoid it being picked up by the scouters.

As the fight starts though, Ginyu gets an idea of roughly the level of strength that Goku is capable of instantly putting out, but it's still technically "hidden" power because he's trying not to tip Ginyu's hand as to what level of strength he's capable of, thus he's using it in quick bursts to avoid letting Ginyu see just how high he's able to go. Kaiou-ken strength can't be registered or felt if the technique isn't active, and there's nothing to suggest that Ginyu is capable of any degree of ki detection, since he required a scouter when he swapped bodies with Goku, and Goku showed no real indication of being able to sense ki while inside Ginyu's body. Ginyu's estimate was based solely on his fight with Goku and roughly where he felt Goku's true strength was given the "bursts" Goku was using.

Likewise, there's nothing in the manga suggesting that he was using anything higher than the regular, 2x Kaiou-ken, or that suddenly him activating the technique verbally doesn't indicate the level he's using, when in all the previous situations it did.

[dbgtFO]

Ginyu also established that Goku was even greater than he thought:

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P3.6
Context: after fighting Goku for a little bit
Ginyu: “I see. Seems you’re even more capable than I thought…”

That would seemingly throw the idea of Goku's base just being 60,000 out of the window, if you ask me.
It's basically:

Ginyu's first estimation of Goku(60,000) < Ginyu's second estimation of Goku < Ginyu's third estimation of Goku(85,000).