Could Tenshinhan's Kikoho or Dodonpa be a planet buster?

[dbgtFO]

Ultimate Gohan never fired a single ki blast, IIRC.

DBZGTKOSDH is right about that:

Spoiler:

[RandomGuy96]

Huh. So he did.

[Regarder]

No, it'd be the same series, because every attack can. I don't know why people have such a problem with the official explanation here. Every attack has the power to destroy a planet, but they somehow use their ki control to make sure it only affects a small area.

I don't have a problem with the idea that explosions can be confined. I do have a problem with the idea that all attacks are intrinsically explosive just because they are strong enough to hurt other characters. When does the guidebook say that? Saying that you can suppress or focus (different) attacks to avoid harming the planet is a different thing from saying that all attacks can by their nature destroy the planet.

It doesn't explain why people are only worried at specific times, and almost always from attacks aimed into the planet.

Can Freeza's finger ki blast destroy a planet? Yes, it can. Freeza just has to choose not to condense it so that it explodes when it hits the planet. The energy just doesn't disappear; if you have the power to destroy the planet, no one is forcing you to keep it condensed. That's entirely your own choice.

Are you saying that all ki attacks inherently explode and you have to stop them? I'd argue that it's the other way around and you have to use an explosive attack, rather than a piercing type.

When Freeza attacks Namek he doesn't say anything about confining the explosion; it's all about holding back ki. Buu might not have to (which doesn't mean all of Buu's attacks are like that either), but doesn't the fact that Freeza produces a particular technique, and doesn't just fire an ordinary blast which he lets expand to the required size, mean anything? If every one of Freeza's techniques could destroy a planet, it would be illogical to have a special technique to do so. He could have fired one of his fast finger blasts and done the job.

If Ten wanted to destroy a planet, he would make an attack designed to explode that large, like Freeza's.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't have a problem with the idea that explosions can be confined. I do have a problem with the idea that all attacks are intrinsically explosive just because they are strong enough to hurt other characters. When does the guidebook say that? Saying that you can suppress or focus (different) attacks to avoid harming the planet is a different thing from saying that all attacks can by their nature destroy the planet.

It doesn't explain why people are only worried at specific times, and almost always from attacks aimed into the planet.

They're worried because they can somehow sense when someone is condensing an attack and when they're not. The attacks are always that powerful, and as Pure Buu shows us, they need not be physically large. He was going to blow up the Earth with a small generic ki blast no different than the dozens we routinely see characters throw at each other.

Are you saying that all ki attacks inherently explode and you have to stop them? I'd argue that it's the other way around and you have to use an explosive attack, rather than a piercing type.

Yes. As shown by the fact that they hurt other characters, we know they have several times the required power to destroy a planet. They don't because the person firing them somehow condenses the energy using ki magic or whatever. But that doesn't mean that energy still isn't there. If they didn't do that little action, then every attack would destroy the planet, because all that energy wouldn't just disappear.

When Freeza attacks Namek he doesn't say anything about confining the explosion; it's all about holding back ki. Buu might not have to (which doesn't mean all of Buu's attacks are like that either), but doesn't the fact that Freeza produces a particular technique, and doesn't just fire an ordinary blast which he lets expand to the required size, mean anything? If every one of Freeza's techniques could destroy a planet, it would be illogical to have a special technique to do so. He could have fired one of his fast finger blasts and done the job.

It's explicitly stated that he didn't want to destroy the planet. What he wanted to do was make it look he wanted to destroy the planet, and then fight Goku. He doesn't actually need a special technique to do it, as we see in EOB (he destroys planet Vegeta with a generic beam attack) and the manga (he uses a generic ki blast to nuke Namek, and Goku explicitly says he could just do that same thing again and annihilate the whole planet in one shot). He just chose to charge up an attack for the purpose once (when he was preparing to finish off Goku) because he was being dramatic and was pissed off at Goku.

[Saiga]

Its main difference between ki blast-type techniques is that its trajectory cannot be seen. Its destructive power is formidable enough to instantly obliterate the Tenkaichi Budoukai arena. Indeed, it is a technique characteristic of the Tsuru-sen School, whose objective is to mercilessly kill people.

Stated right here that it being an "invisible" attack is the main difference from a regular blast like Kamehameha or Final Flash, and that it's meant to kill people... and yet people on here love to argue that the Kikoho and/or Shin Kikoho "only pushes things" and isn't really powerful enough to even slightly hurt Cell (or the Androids, or even freaking Freeza) "because it's a kiai" and "it works different than regular blasts, just because!"...

That's not what people are saying. The technique is obviously designed to kill people - but against someone like Cell, it just can't do that. It only succeeds in pushing him because he's so strong.

There's no connection between "designed to kill" and "absolutely must have damaged someone way stronger than the user" but there is a clear connection between "kiai techniques" and "pushing people away". Simple.

It's not strong enough to hurt Cell, but as a Kiai it does have the ability to push him away despite that. As kiai techniques do.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Any attack of sufficient power can create an explosion that large if the person firing it chooses not to condense the effect into a small area.

That's what I'm saying all this time. The thing is, we don't know how strong someone has to be to create a normal ki blast with that kind of power & explosion radius. The only one who was shown to be capable of doing that is Pure Boo. Can others do that, at a lower level? Sure they can, we just can't know at what level they have to be, because only Boo (almost) did it. Can guys like Dodoria, Freeza, or even Cell do the same? We can't know, we can only guess.

No one actually needs to destroy the core to destroy the planet. Pure Buu's planet buster proves that, as not only did it clearly not destroy the core, it created a ridiculous explosion that could not have come from simply making the planet detonate itself (somehow). We also have no indication that any planet but Namek can go out like that.

Boo's ki blast was extremely fast (like every other ki blast), and I don't see any reason for Namek to be different.

Can Freeza's finger ki blast destroy a planet? Yes, it can. Freeza just has to choose not to condense it so that it explodes when it hits the planet. The energy just doesn't disappear; if you have the power to destroy the planet, no one is forcing you to keep it condensed. That's entirely your own choice.

But that doesn't make any sense. Freeza wasn't afraid that he would hit the planet, because he wasn't aiming at the planet. He was aiming at a weak near-dead Vegeta, whose body didn't even explode from the ki blast.

[RandomGuy96]

That's what I'm saying all this time. The thing is, we don't know how strong someone has to be to create a normal ki blast with that kind of power & explosion radius. The only one who was shown to be capable of doing that is Pure Boo. Can others do that, at a lower level? Sure they can, we just can't know at what level they have to be, because only Boo (almost) did it. Can guys like Dodoria, Freeza, or even Cell do the same? We can't know, we can only guess.

Logically, they should be able to, if Vegeta can bust a planet with a beam attack about as wide as he is tall. If the fighters can, in the first place, produce that much power, then they would have to condense every single attack they launch. A regular old ki blast should still have all that energy, unless Vegeta's regular blasts and punches are inexplicably millions of times weaker than his Galick Gun.

Boo's ki blast was extremely fast (like every other ki blast), and I don't see any reason for Namek to be different.

We saw it hit the planet and explode. The explosion it produced also doesn't match the effect of "only" hitting the core; it was literally millions of times more powerful than it needed to be just to destroy the Earth.

But that doesn't make any sense. Freeza wasn't afraid that he would hit the planet, because he wasn't aiming at the planet. He was aiming at a weak near-dead Vegeta, whose body didn't even explode from the ki blast.

No, he wasn't worried he would destroy the planet because he was condensing huge, beyond-planet-busting levels of energy into a tiny area and somehow making it so it couldn't explode.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We saw it hit the planet and explode. The explosion it produced also doesn't match the effect of "only" hitting the core; it was literally millions of times more powerful than it needed to be just to destroy the Earth.

And we saw Gohan's ki blast hit the planet, and then go to the other side. We can't tell precisely what's going on in a manga.

No, he wasn't worried he would destroy the planet because he was condensing huge, beyond-planet-busting levels of energy into a tiny area and somehow making it so it couldn't explode.

But why would get in the process of doing that?

[RandomGuy96]

But why would get in the process of doing that?

Because:

1. It's apparently more efficient.

2. He doesn't want to destroy every planet he stands on.

And we saw Gohan's ki blast hit the planet, and then go to the other side. We can't tell precisely what's going on in a manga.

Gohan's blast obviously wasn't meant to destroy the planet.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Because:

1. It's apparently more efficient.

More efficient to kill a near-dead Vegeta, who is already much weaker than him even in perfect health?!

2. He doesn't want to destroy every planet he stands on.

It wasn't pointed towards to the planet. There was no reason to worry about that.

Gohan's blast obviously wasn't meant to destroy the planet.

And? It still went to the other side of the planet in an instant. Just like Pure Boo's big ki blast could have easily went to the core of the planet in an instant.

[RandomGuy96]

More efficient to kill a near-dead Vegeta, who is already much weaker than him even in perfect health?!

Yep.

It wasn't pointed towards to the planet. There was no reason to worry about that.

Yes, there was, because the energy wouldn't just disappear. And it was pointed at the ground, where Vegeta was.

And? It still went to the other side of the planet in an instant. Just like Pure Boo's big ki blast could have easily went to the core of the planet in an instant.

Which wouldn't have mattered. The explosion created by the blast was millions of times more powerful than it needed to be. No one needs to destroy the core to destroy the planet.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yep.

How could Freeza possibly fail killing Vegeta?

Yes, there was, because the energy wouldn't just disappear. And it was pointed at the ground, where Vegeta was.

It didn't hit the ground though.

Which wouldn't have mattered. The explosion created by the blast was millions of times more powerful than it needed to be. No one needs to destroy the core to destroy the planet.

When did we ever see a ki blast explosion surpassing a planet in size, or even get close to it?

[RandomGuy96]

How could Freeza possibly fail killing Vegeta?

He couldn't, but there's no need to be wasteful with the little power he used.

It didn't hit the ground though.

It went through Vegeta and into the ground.

When did we ever see a ki blast explosion surpassing a planet in size, or even get close to it?

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15373

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=19074

The explosion created by Pure Buu's blast was several million times greater than the power needed to just destroy the planet.

[Herms]

Toriyama drew a series of short, very roughly drawn comic strips for the Adventure Special where various characters demonstrated how to perform their special attacks. The one with Tenshinhan showing off the Kikoho has him accidentally crack the Earth in pieces Dr. Slump-style ("maybe I overdid it a little"). I guess it falls squarely into the "do gags count?" category, but it's something.

[RandomGuy96]

Toriyama drew a series of short, very roughly drawn comic strips for the Adventure Special where various characters demonstrated how to perform their special attacks. The one with Tenshinhan showing off the Kikoho has him accidentally crack the Earth in pieces Dr. Slump-style ("maybe I overdid it a little"). I guess it falls squarely into the "do gags count?" category, but it's something.

Was it the same Adventure Special that came out during the middle of the Piccolo Daimao arc?

[Herms]

Was it the same Adventure Special that came out during the middle of the Piccolo Daimao arc?

That's the one.

[RandomGuy96]

Was it the same Adventure Special that came out during the middle of the Piccolo Daimao arc?

That's the one.

Well, I think that can safely be thrown out as a gag, then. Otherwise, Tenshinhan would have just fried Daimao with his Kikoho instead of learning the Mafuba. Unless it's just because he thought Daimao could dodge the Kikoho easier? Either way, it'd seem really weird for the Kikoho to amplify Ten's power THAT much, considering that a later Kikoho from a much stronger Ten couldn't even scratch the below-planet-busting Nappa.

[rereboy]

Some type of Ki attacks just can't destroy planets. For example, a Kienzan, no matter how powerful it is, will not blow up a planet.

As for Ki-ko-oh and Dodonpa, well, I don't think we can know for sure. Dodonpa doesn't seem to explode, so maybe it also couldn't, but maybe Ki-Ko-oh could destroy a planet.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He couldn't, but there's no need to be wasteful with the little power he used.

How would he be wasteful?

It went through Vegeta and into the ground.

With the direction that the ki blast took, the planet shouldn't have been destroyed, just like with Gohan's ki blast.

The explosion created by Pure Buu's blast was several million times greater than the power needed to just destroy the planet.

I know that, but where is it shown that the an explosion can get so big?

[RandomGuy96]

How would he be wasteful?

Condensing it into a tiny beam is more efficient.

With the direction that the ki blast took, the planet shouldn't have been destroyed, just like with Gohan's ki blast.

No. It doesn't need to hit the core just to destroy the planet. That much energy being launched at it would destroy it no matter what it hit, as shown by its ability to wound things with planet++ durability. He condensed it so it didn't destroy the planet and his ship.

I know that, but where is it shown that the an explosion can get so big?

Pure Buu's blast having that much energy is what shows that it can create a big explosion. Otherwise, you're saying that the energy just disappears for no reason.