Daizenshuu EX DB wiki...again

Post by **Herms** » Mon May 18, 2009 1:37 pm

So I've been looking around the DragonBall Wiki a bit lately, and it really is pretty dreadful. Whatever happened to the idea of making our own version? Or, if not that, what about doing our best to fix the current Wiki? Their community page shows that there are 25 members. I doubt all of these people are responsible for all the nonsense (there is some decent information on the wiki), so surely it wouldn't be impossible to round up enough people to turn the tide?

But if we did try to make our own wiki, is it possible to make one that isn't so darn ugly? It seems every fan wiki I've seen has terrible page formatting. Not to mention that for some reason, people always feel the need to have a quote at the start of each page, which I think is quite tacky.

So anyway, what are your thoughts?

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:05 pm

Well, starting a whole new one, seems like a lot of work, fixing the current one...seems like a lot of work, but it's still easier

But seriously, I've actually been helping a little on the Dragon Ball Wikia, mostly because I'm bored (and because God knows it needs it), and I noticed that the only ones that contribute anything significant are admins, and that's not a good thing, one of them says the Goku and Friends special is filler

I could understand him saying it's not canon, but it's not the same

SHINOBI-03 · Post by **SHINOBI-03** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:28 pm

I say we should fix the current Dragon Ball Wikia.

Because it's got more informations and details than most Dragon Ball informations websites, and it's an offecial one(?) for it, along with the fact that not everyone knows Kanzenshuu EX or what it is.

The problems with it are dub-based informations and names. but there used to be header that says that the wikia is in constant war between dub fans and Japanese fans about the names and terms.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:35 pm

SHINOBI-03 wrote:I say we should fix the current Dragon Ball Wikia.

Because it's got more informations and details than most Dragon Ball informations websites, and it's an offecial one(?) for it, along with the fact that not everyone knows Kanzenshuu EX or what it is.

The problems with it are dub-based informations and names. but there used to be header that says that the wikia is in constant war between dub fans and Japanese fans about the names and terms.

Yeah, they had very long edit war about it, they finally decided to use FUNi's dub for everything, so the wrong names, and dub mistakes are there.

And the thing that annoys me the most, they add everything that happened, whether it's a movie, a game, a filler or the manga, and there is no way to tell the difference between canon and non-canon material

Post by **Herms** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:39 pm

So is there no way to get them to change the dub names? For instance, what about using the Viz names? That'd certainly be an improvement.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:46 pm

I think it would depend on what the general consensus is, if a lot of people say Viz, they'll use Viz. They don't want to use Japanese names because it's an 'English wiki'

Their system is completly fucked up, for some reason the dub is high up on the list:English anime → English manga → Official English video games → English language authorized guides (for example, the Daizenshuu) → Japanese anime → Japanese manga → Official Japanese video games → Japanese language authorized guides

Here's their debate, if anyone bothers to actually read it

Tweaker · Post by **Tweaker** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:11 pm

Pretty much every themed wiki I've seen on Wikia is horrible. I'd much prefer a wiki managed--or at least overseen--by people such as Mike, Herms, Hujio, and several other members who know how to check their facts and keep out inaccuracies in the various bits and bobs of information stored about the database. As far as I've seen, people outside of this community are extremely bad at keeping any sort of consistency or checking sources for their information, so I'd say we're the most qualified for the job.

If you'd like an example of how I think a themed wiki should be done, then check out my own website--Sonic Retro. We make sure all information is factual, clean out vandalism, and maintain a strong userbase in which all information is taken from reliable sources. Fanfiction is certainly a no, and any preference in terms are generally either corrected to their Japanese equivalents or disambiguated.

I definitely think we could do something like this if we all pulled together; it's just about getting support from Mike. Pretty please? I'll do all the grunt work if you'd like.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:31 pm

If you don't like something that's out there and think you can do better... well... do better. That's one of the reasons Daizenshuu EX came into being in the first place.

If regular Wikipedia sucks, if DraognBall Wikia sucks... well, we're already doing our part with Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai.

Personally, I find the idea of adding a Wiki onto/into/alongside the site frightening beyond belief. I'm already struggling to keep as many projects going as I have going right now, and adding some moderation and content-generation work on top of that just isn't going to fly with my life right now. Of course, there would be TONS of help with it... but on the flip side, there would be exponentially more vandals than we're used to, as well.

In my ideal vision, a Wiki would be something that runs along/behind the main sites. Think of the main sites as the final destination for the vetted information. By the time it makes it there, it's already gone through the generation, fact-checking, proof-reading, etc. by the community at large. Our forum here is almost just like that, with the problem being that the searchability isn't the best, the organization is for a message board and not general information, etc.

It's something I would love to do, but I know the Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai guys wouldn't be able to do it alone. Guaranteed. Herms, I don't care how little you sleep... it's too much for you

.

I've stayed away from it for a while, but it's something I wouldn't mind having investigated. I know that those of us with "the big sites" can be very proud of our own individual work, and I don't want to take anything away from that, either. We can be selfish! Not sure how we'd deal with things that are generated on the Wiki, then we want to bring to our sites... who has the legit "control" or ethical reasoning for putting it on their site? How much did they contribute? Of course, that has nothing at all to do with the general community members, and is shiznit we'd have to work out among ourselves in the background.

You can see how my mind starts going all over the place when it comes to this idea. I can't form a single coherent thought and place it in written text.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:41 pm

Tweaker wrote:Pretty much every themed wiki I've seen on Wikia is horrible.

Agreed, although there is one that is near-perfect, Lostpedia, having registered members be the only ones allowed to edit the site makes it so much better

VegettoEX wrote:You can see how my mind starts going all over the place when it comes to this idea. I can't form a single coherent thought and place it in written text.

Also agreed

Tweaker · Post by **Tweaker** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:54 pm

A wiki is, by nature, a purely collaborative project. The whole point is that you wouldn't have to add all of this information yourself; as long as it's available, we can all work together to compile things together in a way that makes sense, gives the most information possible on different facets of the series, and even cites sources so they can be double-checked by the masses. It's a very exciting concept, really!

In terms of vandalism, I've found that it's actually less to worry about than you'd think. The first thing you're going to want off the bat is the disabling of anonymous editing--it's absolutely nothing but trouble and will increase your workload dramatically. Anybody who actually cares to take time out of their day to contribute any kind of significant information will also take the time to register an account. If they still manage to cause trouble then, their IPs can be collected and swiftly banned. Cracking down with low tolerance is the key to keeping things clean, in my experience.

Another thing to be considered is the general layout and standards of the wiki. Are we going to require all editors to cite their sources in the same way Wikipedia does? Are we going to trust our userbase to insert information without bibliographical sources in favor of citing sources directly in the text? For example:

"In [[Daizenshuu 7]], it is confirmed that [[Goku]]'s [[power level]] was not over 9000 as widely believed, but actually over 8000. [[Vegeta]]'s [[scouter]] broke irregardless of this fact."

The inclusion of "In Daizenshuu 7" would show that there is indeed a source for this information that can be double checked, acting as a much easier to implement method of citing sources for information added into articles.

How will we handle categories? Consider the many facets of the series--fictional aspects (characters, plot points, et al), tangible aspects (guidebooks, manga, anime, merchandise). How do we separate these subcategories? I figure it'll be less complicated than I'm making it out to be, but it's pretty crucial to have a consistent form of categorization for articles so information can be easily located.

One more very, very important thing is rooting out subjective claims and statements in favor of objective, factual ones. All of this "fans prefer the Dragon Box" and even "the Dragon Box has superior colors" rubbish wouldn't fly as it's taking subjective opinion--widespread or otherwise--and trying to present it in a context that is meant for it to be taken as irrefutable fact. A more objective way of expressing such a thing could be in the realm of "the Dragon Box is widely speculated to have the most accurate colors of any Dragon Ball-related DVD release when compared to the original film masters; other companies such as FUNimation have been known to modify brightness, contrast, and color choice upon their film masters, sometimes destroying precise detail present in the original films." Stuff like that.

I'm willing to step up to the plate as a sysop in terms of general organization, as I have a few years of formal wiki experience under my belt. I'd also be willing to bring some more people on board with similar experience and establish some guidelines and tutorials to help others contribute in the cleanest way possible.

This is a project that I've been looking forward to seeing come to fruition for way too long, and I'm eager to help with it in any way I can.

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Mon May 18, 2009 4:00 pm

If this ever materializes you can count me in Tweaker

Post by **Herms** » Mon May 18, 2009 4:14 pm

VegettoEX wrote:It's something I would love to do, but I know the Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai guys wouldn't be able to do it alone. Guaranteed. Herms, I don't care how little you sleep... it's too much for you :P.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to do it alone. There's more than enough people here who I'd trust to do a good job on such a project.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:23 pm

Hm, I'd love to help with this sort of project. I used to work on the articles on Wikipedia before they went to hell in a hand basket (and it's absolutely sad over there now).

I'd say the existing Wikia would be a good place, but they've established moderators. Some of them I know from Wikipedia, and basically the tone there is the anime (with preference for the FUNimation dub) is the primary source. The manga is treated as secondary, as are the original versions of both. Info from anything else is said to belong in a trivia section if at all, since they aren't viewed by the mods as "canon." And trust me when I say that two of these guys in general... must have really boring desk jobs. They watch the updates like hawks and revert anything that doesn't fit that mold.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:48 pm

Herms wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:It's something I would love to do, but I know the Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai guys wouldn't be able to do it alone. Guaranteed. Herms, I don't care how little you sleep... it's too much for you .
Well, I certainly wouldn't want to do it alone. There's more than enough people here who I'd trust to do a good job on such a project.

I think one of you guys should create registration-type wiki on your own. Then, in a subforum over here, we discuss how we want info to be updated. When we come to an agreement, copy + paste the info into the wiki. That way we can control who edits the wiki.

I also think we shouldn't try to use the guidebooks to streamline everything into one guide. Rather, list the manga's facts, the anime's facts, the Daizenshuu, Forever/Landmark, SEGs, and only if necessary, an agreed upon fan conclusion. Timelines, for example:

Manga:
Cell's Timeline:
-764: Trunks kills Freeza and Cold.
-788: Cell awakens to a world without #17 and #18. He finds Trunks (of this timeline) preparing to use the time machine, so he kills him and steals it. The machine, identical to Trunk', is pre-set for 763.

Anime:
Cell's Timeline:
-764: Trunks kills Freeza and Cold, gives Goku cure, and warns of androids.
-788: In a ravaged future seemingly identical to Trunks', Cell awakens to a world without #17 and #18. He finds Trunks (of this timeline) preparing to use the time machine, so he kills him and steals it. The machine, identical to Trunks', is pre-set for 763.

Daizenshuu:
Cell's Timeline:
-Timeline 3 is identical to Trunks' (Timeline 2) up to 788.
-788: Cell kills Trunks and uses the time machine to go back to 763.

We wouldn't go back and fill in the blanks in any entry (like how the manga doesn't tell us if the cure was given to Goku or not in Cell's timeline) until the section designated for our agreed upon fan conclusion.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon May 18, 2009 6:50 pm

KanzenshuEX the Wikia? I'd certainly be up for contributing and doing some writing in my spare time.

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:42 am

I think there'd need to be a more coherent title that people understand, Kanzenshuu EX is more of a portmanteau inside joke, and it'd make a terrible Wiki name. We need to pick something that Dragon Ball fans recognise as a source of information, like a Scouter, or Kami's Lookout.

The Dragon Ball Wiki is basically a place for Funi Dub information, plus additional Japanese stuff, and we should leave it at that.

If we make our own Wiki, any Dub names need to be under "Also Known As" not as the freaking PAGE title.

Tweaker · Post by **Tweaker** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:10 am

The Time Traveller wrote:If we make our own Wiki, any Dub names need to be under "Also Known As" not as the freaking PAGE title.

Yeah, handling the issue of multiple titles across different regions is less difficult than you'd imagine--just word out the beginning of the article to suit. For example, something like...

'''Tenshinhan''' (known as '''Tien Shinhan''' in the [[FUNimation]] dub of the series) is a three-eyed martial artist [...]

==In the Dub==
In the FUNimation dub of ''Dragon Ball'' and ''Dragon Ball Z'', Tenshinhan was renamed to '''Tien Shinhan'''; this was likely, as with all of FUNimation's changes to the show, done in an attempt to what they believed would better suit an American audience. [More info...]

Note how important it was to avoid outright saying something along the lines of "the name was changed to better suit an American audience" in the latter section of that particular article--such a thing is up for debate, and the change in and of itself was arbitrary; it was crucial to clarify that such reasoning was solely that of FUNimation.

Fun stuff.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:48 am

I'm of the mindset that no FUNimation things even need be mentioned at all unless it's necessary for full understanding of whatever article. Yes, I understand many of us happen to live in territories where FUNimation happens to distribute the show, but why should they get mentioned instead of the Mexican dub? The French dub? The Cantonese dub?

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:16 am

VegettoEX wrote:I'm of the mindset that no FUNimation things even need be mentioned at all unless it's necessary for full understanding of whatever article. Yes, I understand many of us happen to live in territories where FUNimation happens to distribute the show, but why should they get mentioned instead of the Mexican dub? The French dub? The Cantonese dub?

Maybe if we don't mention it it'll just go away.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue May 19, 2009 9:14 am

Well, the likely is might be that due to the wikia being in English...fans of the English version that want to crossover in the the original might not know squat from...vulture?

Unless someone can figure out how to redirect and whatnot...