Image Training?

[Gaffer Tape]

I was just watching DBZ episode 39, and it occurred to me, as it sometimes does, that the whole Image Training concept is completely... um, random. It's the only time such a concept is ever shown. How does it work? Why does it work? If they can just train in their minds, why do they ever even bother to do anything else? For that matter, why don't they just do Image Fighting with their enemies? Certainly preserve some landscapes. Like random instances of telepathy, this just shows up never to be referenced again, but at least in the telepathy instances, it has some benefit to the story. This just comes out of nowhere and has absolutely no payoff.

And the thing is, in the anime it appears in an episode that is otherwise almost completely filler. And it seems like something that would be filler, but, of course, it isn't!

I don't know. I just think it's weird. Any opinions?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I was just watching DBZ episode 39, and it occurred to me, as it sometimes does, that the whole Image Training concept is completely... um, random. It's the only time such a concept is ever shown. How does it work? Why does it work? If they can just train in their minds, why do they ever even bother to do anything else? For that matter, why don't they just do Image Fighting with their enemies? Certainly preserve some landscapes. Like random instances of telepathy, this just shows up never to be referenced again, but at least in the telepathy instances, it has some benefit to the story. This just comes out of nowhere and has absolutely no payoff.

And the thing is, in the anime it appears in an episode that is otherwise almost completely filler. And it seems like something that would be filler, but, of course, it isn't!

I don't know. I just think it's weird. Any opinions?

I always thought that Gohan and Kuririn's image training was because there wasn't enough space to freely spar inside the spaceship, so it wouldn't be a practical way of training. It is a random concept, with no benefit to the story whatsoever other than Kuririn telling Gohan to remember their image training to help in the battle against Gurd (which I don't even know would've mattered, since Gurd was a puny little bastard anyway--note: this was the only other time this image training was ever referenced in the series afterwards). I don't know exactly how it works, and it doesn't really make sense. It's as if Gohan and Kuririn would have some kind of telepathy thing going on to be able to spar with each other in the minds, and as far as we know, they have never possessed any kind of similar telepathic ability before or afterwards. I would assume the benefits of image training would be to better hone their skills in battle--so, rather than actually increasing battle strength, it would make them more skilled of a fighter as a whole.

I assume they don't do image fighting with their enemies because, well, they have the landscape there available to fight and it's so much more exciting to watch a fighting going on blasting apart the surroundings rather than some snooze-inducing mental battle.
I think the image training is weird, but it worked for them in the spaceship, and was better than having to fight cramped up in that spaceship with Bulma in the way. Why we don't see it appear much anywhere else? Perhaps physical sparring is more practical than mental sparring. Though I think Piccolo does it, in those scenes where we see him meditating.

[Bussani]

Image training is meditation, basically. The Super Exciting Guide pretty much says they're the same thing. And in that sense, we see a lot of characters do it; notably, Goku spends a lot of time sitting around quietly before standing up and becoming a Grade 2 Super Saiyan, and later, in heaven, meditates before the 25th tournament. It's worth noting that the SEG referred to that instance of meditation as "image training", too, as Herms pointed out over in the thread.

It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.

It makes sense if you ask me. Martial arts is at least half mental, and Dragon Ball's ki is a mental/spiritual energy.

[Dayspring]

I saw it as a means of practicing the manipulation of one's ki. So instead of taking forever to power up and down, they can do it quick (same premise as how Goku's 60,000 or 90,000 BP registered consistently as 5,000). That's what Krillin was referring to against Guldo, whereas the 'sparring' aspect was like a spiritual tug of war/grapple/arm wrestling; push and pull your own ki against your opponent until their concentration gets broken.

[Kendamu]

It's like visualization meditation in real life. An experiment was done with some basketball players and freethrows over a period of time. The first group only practiced for real. The second group only meditated. The third group did both. Out of the three, the group who did both improved their freethrows and most after the experiment was over.

Going by that logic, image training isn't good enough to replace real training, but it's a supplement that'll help you improve faster than you would without it.

[Gaffer Tape]

Okay, I'm beginning to feel somewhat less annoyed by this, although the "Remember the image training we did on the ship," line that comes up later is still sorta vague. My only complaint still is that meditation is one thing, but actually being able to meet up with one another and share a meditative hallucination seems a bit out of left field, even for Dragon Ball.

[Bussani]

Okay, I'm beginning to feel somewhat less annoyed by this, although the "Remember the image training we did on the ship," line that comes up later is still sorta vague. My only complaint still is that meditation is one thing, but actually being able to meet up with one another and share a meditative hallucination seems a bit out of left field, even for Dragon Ball.

I dunno. Roshi randomly read Nam's mind much earlier in the story. It's the sort of thing that comes from a lot of spiritual training, I suppose.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Okay, I'm beginning to feel somewhat less annoyed by this, although the "Remember the image training we did on the ship," line that comes up later is still sorta vague. My only complaint still is that meditation is one thing, but actually being able to meet up with one another and share a meditative hallucination seems a bit out of left field, even for Dragon Ball.

I dunno. Roshi randomly read Nam's mind much earlier in the story. It's the sort of thing that comes from a lot of spiritual training, I suppose.

As well as Son Goku gaining the ability of telepathy and mind-reading, just for plot convenience.

[Dayspring]

Okay, I'm beginning to feel somewhat less annoyed by this, although the "Remember the image training we did on the ship," line that comes up later is still sorta vague. My only complaint still is that meditation is one thing, but actually being able to meet up with one another and share a meditative hallucination seems a bit out of left field, even for Dragon Ball.

Keep in mind that the virtual reality aspect of the training is filler. In the manga, we just see them sitting and their auras growing and twisting around them until they can't stand it anymore.

[Gaffer Tape]

This is true, but the dialogue after they come out of it is the same: "You're really strong, Gohan!" "But I was surprised by all the different moves you have!" so it doesn't seem like the anime did anything with it visually that wasn't already implied.

EDIT: Haha, you and I keep finding ourselves in these sticky "implicit in the manga/explicit in the anime" conversations, don't we?

[Dayspring]

This is true, but the dialogue after they come out of it is the same: "You're really strong, Gohan!" "But I was surprised by all the different moves you have!" so it doesn't seem like the anime did anything with it visually that wasn't already implied.

EDIT: Haha, you and I keep finding ourselves in these sticky "implicit in the manga/explicit in the anime" conversations, don't we?

Is that what the original says? In my version, he's refering to Krillin's technique/skill (meaning any word choice other than movement wouldn't make that sentence problematic).

Do we really do that often? Hope I don't come off as an elitist, then.

[Gaffer Tape]

No, not at all. I don't entertain filler as appropriate canon discussion fodder either. It's just examples like this where I feel that what is shown in filler is more or less exactly the same as what is "said" in the manga. Like, for example, in the manga, there's a narration box that states that Namek has three suns, and that's why there's never night. In the anime, this same information is conveyed by Dende to Kuririn. So while the information itself is canon (that Namek has three suns and no night), I wouldn't argue it to be canon that Dende told that to Kuririn or even that Kuririn leaves the planet with that information at all (even though there's a good chance to speculate that the conversation might have happened). Likewise, in this scenario, I consider it canon that Gohan and Kuririn actively fought against each other in their minds based on the dialogue of the scene in the manga, although the specific attacks and fight choreography, existing only in filler, are not.

Whooo... think I went off on a tangent there!

EDIT: Oh, and as for your question, I'm not entirely sure. I was more or less paraphrasing, but if I recall, the line should be the same in both Simmons's subtitles and the Viz manga. Maybe there's a translation issue that's unclear. I'm not sure.

[Dayspring]

No, not at all. I don't entertain filler as appropriate canon discussion fodder either. It's just examples like this where I feel that what is shown in filler is more or less exactly the same as what is "said" in the manga. Like, for example, in the manga, there's a narration box that states that Namek has three suns, and that's why there's never night. In the anime, this same information is conveyed by Dende to Kuririn. So while the information itself is canon (that Namek has three suns and no night), I wouldn't argue it to be canon that Dende told that to Kuririn or even that Kuririn leaves the planet with that information at all (even though there's a good chance to speculate that the conversation might have happened). Likewise, in this scenario, I consider it canon that Gohan and Kuririn actively fought against each other in their minds based on the dialogue of the scene in the manga, although the specific attacks and fight choreography, existing only in filler, are not.

Whooo... think I went off on a tangent there!

EDIT: Oh, and as for your question, I'm not entirely sure. I was more or less paraphrasing, but if I recall, the line should be the same in both Simmons's subtitles and the Viz manga. Maybe there's a translation issue that's unclear. I'm not sure.

I totally get you; I usually just don't like the filler, unless it's true to the themes, characters, motifs, etc of the story and doesn't sidetrack the true story or introduce it. Like the Bardock special; essentially, it's ALL filler aside from the death scene. But it's really interesting, is true to Saiyan beliefs and attitudes and adds to the backstory instead of mucking it up.

Meanwhile I see the image training scene to be problematic with how I read the manga, so I just toss the extras up to being filler and ignore it in that case. Like I said earlier, I saw it as being something to do with ki manipulation and/or meditation ONLY, so unless there's something concrete in the Japanese manga that prooves me wrong, the VR element introduced by the filler is something I choose to see as contradictory to the manga instead of supplemental.

[Kendamu]

Okay, I'm beginning to feel somewhat less annoyed by this, although the "Remember the image training we did on the ship," line that comes up later is still sorta vague. My only complaint still is that meditation is one thing, but actually being able to meet up with one another and share a meditative hallucination seems a bit out of left field, even for Dragon Ball.

Characters that talk to each other through their minds like Tenshinhan and Chaozu, people returning from the dead left and right, and guys blowing up cities with a simple gesture aren't wacky, but a minute of two people psychically sending and receiving what they're picturing in their heads is too much?

[Gaffer Tape]

Haha, okay, okay, sorry. I should clarify. If the scene had been between Tenshinhan and Chaozu, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But we'd never been given any prior reason to think that Gohan or Kuririn could jump into each other's minds.