The Chōzenshū databook thread: speculation, discussion, etc.

[Bussani]

People having bodies in Hell (and being able to build androids there no less) contradicts the manga. But the anime already did that, I guess.

SS4 what??

Toriyama said in an interview that the tails went away/stopped coming back because they became obsolete or useless (or some other wording) after Super Saiyan was introduced. Some people take this as a sign that--in Toriyama's eyes, at least--Super Saiyan 4 shouldn't be possible, because it sure as hell makes the tail useful again. Still, I'm happy to overlook this little comment; I wouldn't be surprised if even Toriyama went back on something like that if he thought up a good reason to have the tails come back.

[JeffJarrett]

Toriyama said in an interview that the tails went away/stopped coming back because they became obsolete or useless (or some other wording) after Super Saiyan was introduced. Some people take this as a sign that--in Toriyama's eyes, at least--Super Saiyan 4 shouldn't be possible, because it sure as hell makes the tail useful again. Still, I'm happy to overlook this little comment; I wouldn't be surprised if even Toriyama went back on something like that if he thought up a good reason to have the tails come back.

Thanks for the response.

But Goku's tail didn't come back by itself, Old Kai and Kibito Kai had to pull it out.

[TheMightyOzaru]

We can just ignore it actually. Plot holes a many. Not to mention characters seem very out of character at times. Here let me name a few plot holes: Gohan is a SSJ, SSJ4 is a thing regardless of Toriyama's statement about the tail, Goku and Vegeta attempt fusion not even 10 minutes after diffusing, Rou Kaioshin knowing about SSJ4, etc.

Those things don't contradict the manga: it was never stated Gohan lost his ability to turn Super Saiyan, SS4 what??, Goku and Vegeta attempt the fusion but they were not able to fuse again, the Kai and Kaioshin are said to know everything. Conclusion: Dragon Ball GT doesn't contradict the manga.

The definition of a plot hole is something that is never explained and or is inconsistent. These are either never explained or are inconsistent. Toriyama states the tail became inferior. the SSJ is scene as superior and as such an Oozaru likely couldn't go SSJ according to the manga because if it could it would be stronger than the supposedly superior SSJ3. Goku still tries fusion knowing full well that there is a 30 minute wait for fusion. Kaioshin clearly don't know everything since they kind of overlooked how powerful the Z-fighters were.

[Bussani]

But Goku's tail didn't come back by itself, Old Kai and Kibito Kai had to pull it out.

True, but that's not what people are getting at. They're not saying that GT contradicted Toriyama by having the tail grow back, because as you say, the tails didn't grow back by themselves. What they're saying is that it wouldn't be useless for them to grow back if Super Saiyan 4 existed, so Toriyama's reason for them not growing back no longer makes sense if you take Super Saiyan 4 into account.

Toriyama: "The tails stopped growing back because they weren't needed anymore. Super Saiyan was better."
Fans: "But what about Super Saiyan 4? They were needed for that, and that was way better than Super Saiyan."

[JeffJarrett]

But Goku's tail didn't come back by itself, Old Kai and Kibito Kai had to pull it out.

True, but that's not what people are getting at. They're not saying that GT contradicted Toriyama by having the tail grow back, because as you say, the tails didn't grow back by themselves. What they're saying is that it wouldn't be useless for them to grow back if Super Saiyan 4 existed, so Toriyama's reason for them not growing back no longer makes sense if you take Super Saiyan 4 into account.

Toriyama: "The tails stopped growing back because they weren't needed anymore. Super Saiyan was better."
Fans: "But what about Super Saiyan 4? They were needed for that, and that was way better than Super Saiyan."

Ok, but Toriyama's statement was more tails grow back when needed like when it did during Goku's match with Giran (or when it did for Gohan to turn Great Ape against Vegeta). I also think it was a response to a question, when asked why tails sometime grow back randomly.

EDIT: It was in a Daizenshuu, stating the tail will often suddenly grow back if the Saiyan is in danger.

[Fox666]

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[TheMightyOzaru]

But Goku's tail didn't come back by itself, Old Kai and Kibito Kai had to pull it out.

True, but that's not what people are getting at. They're not saying that GT contradicted Toriyama by having the tail grow back, because as you say, the tails didn't grow back by themselves. What they're saying is that it wouldn't be useless for them to grow back if Super Saiyan 4 existed, so Toriyama's reason for them not growing back no longer makes sense if you take Super Saiyan 4 into account.

Toriyama: "The tails stopped growing back because they weren't needed anymore. Super Saiyan was better."
Fans: "But what about Super Saiyan 4? They were needed for that, and that was way better than Super Saiyan."

Ok, but Toriyama's statement was more tails grow back when needed like when it did during Goku's match with Giran (or when it did for Gohan to turn Great Ape against Vegeta). I also think it was a response to a question, when asked why tails sometime grow back randomly.

EDIT: It was in a Daizenshuu, stating the tail will often suddenly grow back if the Saiyan is in danger.

Thats early in the story and there have been plenty of times where a Saiyan has been in danger and yet their tail didn't grow back. Toriyama states that the tails stopped coming back because they had become inferior. This effectively makes SSJ4 contradictory and just flat out unnecessary the way it was handled. SSJ3 is good enough. I will give SSJ4 one thing though, it looks cool.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm 100% sure Super Saiyan 3 has nothing to do with the 1 hour cooldown period for fusion.

When Goten & Trunks were trying to perform Fusion correctly, they turned Fat Gotenks, and after waiting for the Fusion to break for 30 minutes, the did Fusion right away, transforming into Skinny Gotenks, and then again, after 30 minutes, they used Fusion right away again, and finally became Gotenks.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I am still wondering though, is there a possible explanation for the tails usefulness during GT without contradicting Toriyama's statement? It could just be that it became useless until it was needed again. Perhaps the tail stopped coming back because they hadn't exhausted all there options of powering up. With SSJ3 being their limit the tail probably grew back to say hey guys there is this super secret transformation that exceeds all other ones up to this point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I am still wondering though, is there a possible explanation for the tails usefulness during GT without contradicting Toriyama's statement? It could just be that it became useless until it was needed again. Perhaps the tail stopped coming back because they hadn't exhausted all there options of powering up. With SSJ3 being their limit the tail probably grew back to say hey guys there is this super secret transformation that exceeds all other ones up to this point.

It didn't completely contradicted Toriyama's statement, since the tail never grew back on its own on neither Goku nor Vegeta. So, I guess that Golden Oozaru & Super Saiyan 4 are something like hidden Saiyan forms. If you have kept your tail, good for you. If not, too bad, you need to find another way.

[Kaboom]

Toriyama didn't design Super Saiyan 4, nor as far as we know did he come up with the tail being involved in attaining it. His remark about tails becoming useless due to Oozaru not comparing to Super Saiyan ONLY pertains to the manga. GT's creations are an entirely different story. That's... obvious.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Toriyama didn't design Super Saiyan 4, nor as far as we know did he come up with the tail being involved in attaining it. His remark about tails becoming useless due to Oozaru not comparing to Super Saiyan ONLY pertains to the manga. GT's creations are an entirely different story. That's... obvious.

This is true but it would be nice to have an explanation that doesn't include, its the anime it doesn't have to follow the manga rules.

[Herms]

It's interesting to note that one of Toriyama's rough draft designs for Super Saiyan 3 Goku (featured in Daizenshuu 4) shows him with a tail. Obviously that's not what Toriyama ultimately went with, but I always wondered if that's what gave the anime staff their idea for the design of Super Saiyan 4.

[Gyt Kaliba]

It's interesting to note that one of Toriyama's rough draft designs for Super Saiyan 3 Goku (featured in Daizenshuu 4) shows him with a tail. Obviously that's not what Toriyama ultimately went with, but I always wondered if that's what gave the anime staff their idea for the design of Super Saiyan 4.

I remember that picture, but I never put two and two together like that before. That's actually a pretty good guess.

If nothing else, I'd say it's a good point to raise to say that bringing the tail back into importance with SS4, despite any earlier comments about the tail that Toriyama may have made, isn't that crazy an idea, since even he thought of it.

[NeoKING]

How about ... the 7th universe is where the manga happened, while the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th is where GT/DBO/Movies happened, etc.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's interesting to note that one of Toriyama's rough draft designs for Super Saiyan 3 Goku (featured in Daizenshuu 4) shows him with a tail. Obviously that's not what Toriyama ultimately went with, but I always wondered if that's what gave the anime staff their idea for the design of Super Saiyan 4.

That is interesting. I like the idea that the tail comes back after you have exhausted all SSJ transformations leaving no more room to ascend via traditional methods. When the time is right the tail returns allowing you to access SSJ4. If you somehow kept your tail after ascending to SSJ you can just go straight to 4 if you know how.

[Saiga]

I'm 100% sure Super Saiyan 3 has nothing to do with the 1 hour cooldown period for fusion.

When Goten & Trunks were trying to perform Fusion correctly, they turned Fat Gotenks, and after waiting for the Fusion to break for 30 minutes, the did Fusion right away, transforming into Skinny Gotenks, and then again, after 30 minutes, they used Fusion right away again, and finally became Gotenks.

Are they shown fusing again immediately after de-fusing in the manga each time? Because I thought they just waited 1 hour in-between off panel. I was sure that the 1 hour cooldown was a regular part of fusion, and this is honestly the first time I've heard otherwise.

[Fox666]

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[DBZGTKOSDH]

Are they shown fusing again immediately after de-fusing in the manga each time? Because I thought they just waited 1 hour in-between off panel. I was sure that the 1 hour cooldown was a regular part of fusion, and this is honestly the first time I've heard otherwise.

Not only it would most likely be noted that they can't use Fusion for an hour, but when they fail for the second time Piccolo says "Let's do it again... in another 30 minutes...".

[Saiga]

Are they shown fusing again immediately after de-fusing in the manga each time? Because I thought they just waited 1 hour in-between off panel. I was sure that the 1 hour cooldown was a regular part of fusion, and this is honestly the first time I've heard otherwise.

Not only it would most likely be noted that they can't use Fusion for an hour, but when they fail for the second time Piccolo says "Let's do it again... in another 30 minutes...".

So, the drawback was only mentioned by Goten/Trunks in regards to using Super Saiyan 3? That's... really interesting.