Always confused about the forms of Boo

[bleed0range]

In the series it's clear that up until a certain point, the various forms of Boo keep getting stronger. But I keep hearing everyone say that Kid Boo (or pure boo) was the weakest? But in the series I'm pretty sure they continually say he is the strongest and something like most unpredictable. I get that when he absorbs people he becomes stronger but are we sure of that? Maybe they make him weaker. When Kid Boo first appears Goku and Vegeta comment on how his ki begins to grow instead of get lower. And Boo desperately wants to retain his absorptions to retain his mental state or his self-consciousness... as it seems kid/pure boo is pretty much mindless for the most part. So that may be why he doesn't want to gain more power THAT way. Also Goku says that he was sure he could defeat Fat Boo at one point but later he admits it's impossible for him to defeat Kid/Pure Boo. Fat Boo without the evil side of Boo in him seems to be considerably weaker too. I thought that the fat kai boo absorbed (forget his name) was somehow controlling the evil part of boo and up until satan's doggy got shot he kept it in check as much as he could. Again making it seem as though his absorptions actually weaken him.

I always assumed that Kid Boo is actually the most powerful and his first few absorptions weakened him and from then on he became stronger from his weakened state through further absorptions and gained a higher mental capacity. So is that true? It's all very confusing!

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I know this probably isn't the response you wanted, but, I've lately been suspecting that Aku Buu = Pure Buu in strength because it was said that Pure Buu after absorbing that first, muscular Kaioushin was stronger than Aku Buu, and it's also been said that no one's been strong enough to lift the Zetto Sword until a SSJ Gohan, who was slightly weaker than his Seru Arc self, could lift; so therefore, the first Kaioushin he absorbed didn't give that big of a boost accept a great altercation to his personality. It might make sense since they basically look the same and Aku Buu is like a mature, controllable version of Pure Buu.

So maybe that's it; I dunno. I really hate trying to wrap my head about this idea that the Kaioushins made him weaker; I honestly just want to accept that original Mr./ Djinn Buu = Aku Buu = Pure Buu in strength; the only difference is Aku Buu was in complete control of the power while Aku Buu and pre-split Mr. Buu were not.

[Saiga]

Pure Boo is weaker in the manga, stronger in the anime.

In the manga, when Goku & Vegeta refer to him gaining power, that was when he was temporarily taking on the form he had after absorbing the South Kaioshin. Then he turns into Pure Boo and they regain their confidence.

[Herms]

Yeah, the short version is that the lines referring to kid Boo as the strongest are all only in the anime. In the manga he's just said to be the "most troublesome", which is open to interpretation. The typical view among fans who keep track of such things is that since Goku is repeatedly said to be weaker than evil Boo/Gotenks-absorbed Boo/Gohan-absorbed Boo, but is willing to fight kid Boo and said to have the power to destroy him, then kid Boo is probably weaker than those other forms of Boo.

[DBZAOTA482]

Pure Boo is weaker in the manga, stronger in the anime.

When is this stated? If Kaioshin stated it then it's more than likely wrong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Pure Boo is weaker in the manga, stronger in the anime.

When is this stated? If Kaioshin stated it then it's more than likely wrong.

It was Kaioshin.

[Hitiro]

In the series it's clear that up until a certain point, the various forms of Boo keep getting stronger. But I keep hearing everyone say that Kid Boo (or pure boo) was the weakest? But in the series I'm pretty sure they continually say he is the strongest and something like most unpredictable. I get that when he absorbs people he becomes stronger but are we sure of that? Maybe they make him weaker. When Kid Boo first appears Goku and Vegeta comment on how his ki begins to grow instead of get lower. And Boo desperately wants to retain his absorptions to retain his mental state or his self-consciousness... as it seems kid/pure boo is pretty much mindless for the most part. So that may be why he doesn't want to gain more power THAT way. Also Goku says that he was sure he could defeat Fat Boo at one point but later he admits it's impossible for him to defeat Kid/Pure Boo. Fat Boo without the evil side of Boo in him seems to be considerably weaker too. I thought that the fat kai boo absorbed (forget his name) was somehow controlling the evil part of boo and up until satan's doggy got shot he kept it in check as much as he could. Again making it seem as though his absorptions actually weaken him.

I always assumed that Kid Boo is actually the most powerful and his first few absorptions weakened him and from then on he became stronger from his weakened state through further absorptions and gained a higher mental capacity. So is that true? It's all very confusing!

I'm always on the fence with this. While I understand people say Pure Boo is weaker than Super Boo I like to think about the line Kibitoshin said when Super Boo was transforming back into Kid Boo.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

In this discussion Kibitoshin says that the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorptions suggests that the absorptions that he had done actually weakened him. Perhaps its in reference to the quelling of his heart or maybe, what I like to think anyways, an absorption only increases his power if the strength of the individual outweighs the negative effects of his purity. By this I mean if we take Dai Kaioshin as an example, he had a pure heart but he was nowhere near the strength of the South Kaioshin so absorbing Dai Kaioshin actually caused a negative effect as his pure heart weakened Boo's strength. But while South Kaioshin has probably as pure a heart as Dai Kaioshin, South Kaioshin's strength was enough that it didn't weaken him. In terms of numbers it would look something like this:

Dai Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 25
Affect on Boo: 25-100 = -75

South Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 120
Affect on Boo: 120-100 = 20

Of course its more than likely that Pure Boo is actually weaker than Super Boo, but I just thought I'd throw out an example of how you could look at it if we're talking about Kid Boo being stronger. But there is more evidence pointing to the contrary.

[bleed0range]

In the series it's clear that up until a certain point, the various forms of Boo keep getting stronger. But I keep hearing everyone say that Kid Boo (or pure boo) was the weakest? But in the series I'm pretty sure they continually say he is the strongest and something like most unpredictable. I get that when he absorbs people he becomes stronger but are we sure of that? Maybe they make him weaker. When Kid Boo first appears Goku and Vegeta comment on how his ki begins to grow instead of get lower. And Boo desperately wants to retain his absorptions to retain his mental state or his self-consciousness... as it seems kid/pure boo is pretty much mindless for the most part. So that may be why he doesn't want to gain more power THAT way. Also Goku says that he was sure he could defeat Fat Boo at one point but later he admits it's impossible for him to defeat Kid/Pure Boo. Fat Boo without the evil side of Boo in him seems to be considerably weaker too. I thought that the fat kai boo absorbed (forget his name) was somehow controlling the evil part of boo and up until satan's doggy got shot he kept it in check as much as he could. Again making it seem as though his absorptions actually weaken him.

I always assumed that Kid Boo is actually the most powerful and his first few absorptions weakened him and from then on he became stronger from his weakened state through further absorptions and gained a higher mental capacity. So is that true? It's all very confusing!

I'm always on the fence with this. While I understand people say Pure Boo is weaker than Super Boo I like to think about the line Kibitoshin said when Super Boo was transforming back into Kid Boo.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

In this discussion Kibitoshin says that the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorptions suggests that the absorptions that he had done actually weakened him. Perhaps its in reference to the quelling of his heart or maybe, what I like to think anyways, an absorption only increases his power if the strength of the individual outweighs the negative effects of his purity. By this I mean if we take Dai Kaioshin as an example, he had a pure heart but he was nowhere near the strength of the South Kaioshin so absorbing Dai Kaioshin actually caused a negative effect as his pure heart weakened Boo's strength. But while South Kaioshin has probably as pure a heart as Dai Kaioshin, South Kaioshin's strength was enough that it didn't weaken him. In terms of numbers it would look something like this:

Dai Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 25
Affect on Boo: 25-100 = -75

South Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 120
Affect on Boo: 120-100 = 20

Of course its more than likely that Pure Boo is actually weaker than Super Boo, but I just thought I'd throw out an example of how you could look at it if we're talking about Kid Boo being stronger. But there is more evidence pointing to the contrary.

I personally agree to an extent... I think his pure heart weakened him in a sense. It made him less crazy and evil and held him back slightly. His power itself may not have been weakened.

[FindKenshi]

I'm of the opinion that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, and yes I can make my case using evidence strictly from the manga. I did not arrive at this idea easily, and I was a believer in the opposite camp for the majority of my web-posting DBZ fandom. However, after looking back over the story with hindsight, it's very clear to me that it was at least the author's intent that Goku > Gohan and Kid Buu > Super Buu, even if he arrived at that intent after going through a mid-story change. There is an interview in which he basically admits he didn't think Gohan was good enough for the role of the hero so he decided to bring Goku back and let him win the day.

Anyway, almost any argument for Super Buu > Kid Buu can be countered by various happenings in the manga. Won't get into detail here, though I'll probably make a big post with scans soon just out of boredom. Expect it in a couple days or so. As for a small example though, Herms brought up the whole

"Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu but was willing to fight Kid Buu."

In my manga, Goku suggested hiding out in Kaioshin Kai to come up with a plan first, and Buu warped there and forced him into a conflict. If that's not an accurate translation of the events, please let me know. Since when has "Gung Ho Goku" ever wanted to avoid conflict in favor of making up a plan? So, clearly, he was just as willing to fight Kid Buu as he was Super Buu--not very. Another small example: Super Buu supporters usually point out Goku saying they'd need to fuse to beat Super Buu, but wanting to fight Kid Buu without fusing. I'd personally point out that during the final battle, Goku literally states that he regretted breaking the Potara, and admits he was "trying to act too cool."

[Saiga]

Toriyama finding Gohan unsuitable for the role has nothing to do with power, as Gohan was obviously capable of defeating Evil Boo after his power up.

[FindKenshi]

Toriyama finding Gohan unsuitable for the role has nothing to do with power, as Gohan was obviously capable of defeating Evil Boo after his power up.

Yep, but the only actual statement made about Evil Buu's power comparing to Pure Buu is Goku uttering "Wait.. isn't he getting stronger instead of weaker!?"

Many fans try to twist this around to mean it's ONLY referring to "Buff Buu" who momentarily appears during the transformation, and then they claim that since Vegeta and Goku relax when Pure Buu appears it means Pure Buu is weaker. So why no statement about how Buff Buu's power now starts to fall? Why do they mock ONLY Pure Buu's size, and not his power. In fact, they are nervous and wishfully thinking that since he's small he'll be easier. Once he charges up, Goku comments they'll "never be able to stop" that blast he creates! Pure Buu ends up being fearsome, and their fleeting hope that they can handle him because "he's a shrimp" goes out the window.

Later Goku suggests they hang out on kaioshin Kai while they come up with a plant to defeat him. Too bad Buu warps right to them and forces the final confrontation before they can begin.'

Whether some fans like it or not, you simply have to look at this from an out-of-universe eye. It makes little sense from a story writing prespective to make Goku utter that line about him getting stronger while he's supposed to be getting weaker, if Toriyama intended for him to get stronger, then get weaker again, during the same scene. It is a long stretch and seems very unlikely whether you like it or not. He'd at least have Goku/Vegeta mock Buu's power, instead they only make fun of his size.. but we can see the sweat drops and unsure look of their smiles. They're just hoping for the best! Buu puts their hopes to the wind as soon as he shows what he's made of.

"He's going to throw that!? We could never stop that!"

Goku stops one of Evil Buu's attacks, though... with Gotenks absorbed in him, no less. His Kienzan was more than enough to interrupt that Buu.. but he'd never stop Pure Buu's attack.

The other thing you have to look at from beyond the fourth wall, is the fact that once Toriyama decided Goku should be the hero, it makes sense from his storywriting perspective, that Goku be the strongest, and his opponent too. How much sense does it make that Enma Daio and Kaioshin are freaking out about Goku possibly losing... if you believe that Gohan could have stepped up to the plate afterwards to avenge him? The entire universe is riding on Goku's winning against Pure Buu.. something numerous characters say throughout. The drama goes out the window if you think Goku and Vegeta losing means nothing more than it being Gohan's turn to win. Clearly, it was considered the last ditch hope to defeat Buu having Goku finally fight against him unrestrained.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think you forgot that Goku said that he could actually kill Pure Boo if he could go full power. If Evil Boo is weaker than that, he wouldn't say that he doesn't stand a chance together with Vegeta.

[Hitiro]

Goku stops one of Evil Buu's attacks, though... with Gotenks absorbed in him, no less. His Kienzan was more than enough to interrupt that Buu.. but he'd never stop Pure Buu's attack.

Its been long established that certain ki attacks can allow you to overpower your opponent. This is one of those moments. Tienshinhan also stopped a blast by Bootenks which was actually the destruction of the blast itself. You would assume that the level difference between the two would have meant Tienshinhan couldn't stop it but its because he has the Kikoho he could. Its the same with him stopping Second form Cell, Tienshinhan is much much weaker than him yet he held him back with his Kikoho's. Somebody cutting Boo in half with a Kienzan isn't anything to be amazed about. If it was then we'd have to say that Base Goku would put up a good fight against Bootenks which is frankly an absurd assumption as we know Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku and the fact that Super Boo could beat Gotenks, because he said the only person who was stronger than him was Gohan, means that Super Boo is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Also Goku says inside Super Boo that even with everyone pulled out of him Super Boo is still too strong for Goku and Vegeta.

[Kaboom]

Goku specifically proclaims that Evil Boo is too strong for himself or Vegeta to handle, and then barely a full chapter later, they're suddenly not all that worried once he's reverted to Pure Boo. Even IF they were, for some inexplicable reason, only judging him by his size when they'd been keeping track of and noting his ki just a moment before, which would be a huge stretch, and even IF they initially underestimated him, when Pure Boo shows what he can really do later it's STILL not above a level that Goku can take on his own.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yeah it would seem to me that Goku is just talking out his ass to make this fight more dramatic. Unless you are implying Goku > Gohan, prior to the Budokai, I think it's pretty obvious that Pure Buu is still weaker than Evil Buu in both the anime and the manga.

[The Monkey King]

Honestly the cases I've heard from people arguing that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu have always been so weak, first the spirit bomb (genki dama) one where people ignore that genki is only one component of overall ki and now I'm hearing Kid Buu's stronger because Goku didn't stop his attack

Base Goku used the element of suprise to cut Buutenks in half, unless you really think base Goku > Buutenks

Goku and Vegeta agreed that a FPSSJ3 Goku would defeat Kid Buu yet when Goku saw Super Buu he said both he and Vegeta would die without fusion.

Kid Buu's not the strongest Buu he's just insane which is why Goku and Vegeta were so suprised when he attempted to blow up the planet on a whim.

[FindKenshi]

Well I don't really want to get into a back-and-forth discussion here, like I said.. I'll make a post probably this weekend. I could post counters to the arguments given here, but it just degrades into the same back-and-forth "discussion" (read: argument.) What it boils down to at the end, is this is purely opinion based for both of our sides, and you take the evidence you want to, and you twist the other evidence around or what some people call 'interpreting' it.

I'll write out a long essay with manga scans and a well written presentation of my case when I have more time. But we've all had this debate before. I've engaged in these back-and-forth arguments on this board before and it never, ever ends well. No one's mind will be changed, and it'll become increasingly hostile, so just chill for a few days, look forward to when I'll make my case, and then have fun picking it apart or whatever, but just don't expect me to reply to every single person that disgarees with me because quite frankly I know I won't change anyone's minds on the matter anyway, but if I have a chance to reinforce like-minded fans on the issue, and give them some talking points to use when they find themselves in this debate, that's part of the fun.

Plus I have a feeling that this matter will be settled in Battle of Gods when we see that Goku is stronger than Gohan most likely before Super Saiyan God.. so my essay may also help ease the shock of a lot of you who quite frankly, are going to be upset if that did end up being the case.

[Hitiro]

Plus I have a feeling that this matter will be settled in Battle of Gods when we see that Goku is stronger than Gohan most likely before Super Saiyan God.. so my essay may also help ease the shock of a lot of you who quite frankly, are going to be upset if that did end up being the case.

I'm finding this hard to understand. Are you saying that if Goku is stronger than Gohan in Battle of Gods without SSJG then that makes your opinion correct? You realise that this event takes place in the time period between the killing of Kid Boo and the next Tenkaichi Budokai, right? If Goku is indeed stronger than Gohan in Battle of Gods then that would purely be down to Goku's training up to that point. There is a 10 year gap between Kid Boo dying and the next Tenkaichi Budokai so it isn't unreasonable for Goku to be stronger than Gohan in a couple of years. You're also forgetting that the SSJ forms make it so that Saiyan's power increases are exponential. For instance, if Goku is training with Gohan then a smaller increase in Goku's battle power would be much larger with the SSJ forms. So if Goku and Gohan both get the same increase in strength from sparring it benefits Goku better because of the SSJ forms.

[FindKenshi]

Plus I have a feeling that this matter will be settled in Battle of Gods when we see that Goku is stronger than Gohan most likely before Super Saiyan God.. so my essay may also help ease the shock of a lot of you who quite frankly, are going to be upset if that did end up being the case.

I'm finding this hard to understand. Are you saying that if Goku is stronger than Gohan in Battle of Gods without SSJG then that makes your opinion correct? You realise that this event takes place in the time period between the killing of Kid Boo and the next Tenkaichi Budokai, right? If Goku is indeed stronger than Gohan in Battle of Gods then that would purely be down to Goku's training up to that point. There is a 10 year gap between Kid Boo dying and the next Tenkaichi Budokai so it isn't unreasonable for Goku to be stronger than Gohan in a couple of years. You're also forgetting that the SSJ forms make it so that Saiyan's power increases are exponential. For instance, if Goku is training with Gohan then a smaller increase in Goku's battle power would be much larger with the SSJ forms. So if Goku and Gohan both get the same increase in strength from sparring it benefits Goku better because of the SSJ forms.

Maybe it's not this board, but many fans who believe that Mystic Gohan was stronger than SSj3 Goku also believe it was by a vast amount, and thus they consider Gohan the stronger warrior even after the 10 year time skip, because "no amount of training could have surpassed Gohan." Or some say "Gohan simply has higher potential than Goku, so once Gohan received the power-up, Goku can never get stronger than him no matter how hard he tries."

Again, that may not be the popular belief here at this specific site, but I've seen that this opinion goes hand in hand with thinking Gohan is stronger during the Buu period. The two theories are usually shared by most of those fans in my experience.

[Saiga]

The new movie isn't going to settle anything. It's not part of the manga & written by someone else.