Positive changes/Woolseyisms

[Kamiccolo9]

And I the only one who didn't consider the original Woolseyisms to be good things?

They've never really sounded that good to me, but I've never played the games in question, so maybe they seem better when you encounter them "in the wild" rather than in an online page explaining what Woolseyisms are.

I do have something of a problem with the whole idea of using "Woolseyism" as a term for positive changes made in localizations, since much of the time whether a localization change is good or bad is going to be largely up to personal opinion. So saying "this is a Woolseyism" is really just saying you personally happen to like a particular change. At best, it's using lingo for the sake of using lingo, and at worst it's an attempt to dress up your opinion as something more objective.

I've found it to be more of a nostalgia thing. I mean, I first played the GBA Final Fantasy VI, which had an objectively better translation than the SNES Final Fantasy III. And yet, it got a great deal of criticism for this translation for not following "what they played as a kid." I imagine the same goes for Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy IV(II), although I haven't played either of the original localizations of those.

[Adamant]

I imagine the same goes for Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy IV(II), although I haven't played either of the original localizations of those.

Final Fantasy 4's original translation isn't considered good in the slightest (and was neither done by Woolsey nor by anyone else with English as their first language), it's really just that one line people like.

[Gaffer Tape]

The funny thing is, though, that Clyde Mandelin (the DB subtitle guy) has been doing on ongoing project analyzing the various translations of FFIV and seems to be coming to the conclusion that the original FFIV translation isn't as bad as people like to say it is. Or at least that it's leaps and bounds over the later PlayStation and GBA translation that punched up dialogue and rewrote with reckless abandon. That is to say, the SNES translation not terribly inaccurate. The main problem is that it's incredibly poorly localized and not very well-polished. Like you said, Adamant, it was very clearly not written by someone who speaks English as a native language.

[Fionordequester]

I've found it to be more of a nostalgia thing. I mean, I first played the GBA Final Fantasy VI, which had an objectively better translation than the SNES Final Fantasy III. And yet, it got a great deal of criticism for this translation for not following "what they played as a kid." I imagine the same goes for Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy IV(II), although I haven't played either of the original localizations of those.

First of all, I've noticed that my answers always seem to be several paragraphs long these days. Is that alright with you all, or is it getting kind of hard to read? I don't want this topic to feel too confrontational. Anyways...



It's not just a nostalgia thing though. Woosley's translations were slightly cartoonish and hammy at times (which isn't always a bad thing. I mean, it's not like Final Fantasy III and Chrono Trigger weren't that way sometimes), but they were still a darn sight better than most of the translations I know of during that time, such as the 7th Saga, which was so literal that practically all the life was taken out of the script.

And Woosley was a clever and wise localizer in many ways, and even had enough common sense to realize that what works in Japanese doesn't always come across well in English. For example, remember Belthasar, Gaspar, and Melchior from Chrono Trigger? The three time sages? Well guess what, those actually weren't their names. In the Japanese version, they were literally called, and I kid you not...Gash, Bash, and Hash. Or perhaps Gosh, Bosh, and Hosh, if you decide to translate it out phonetically. Or, if you want a completely literal translation, Gashyu, Bashyu, and Hashyu

...

Either way, they sound completely ridiculous in English, even disregarding the fact that they're supposed to be the three sages that are so central to the plot of Chrono Trigger. I don't know if the names read any better in Japanese (I'm guessing they do), but translating them literally would have been a very dumb thing to do, and Woosley probably realized that. Same thing with translating "Tina" as "Terra" in FFVI. He knew that "Tina" was a foreign sounding name in Japan, so instead of translating it literally, he translated it so that it sounded foreign to us. And then there's Sabin, who was ALSO called "Mash" in the original version...

Anyways, point is, Woosley wasn't perfect, but he had several good localization practices considering the time, and most importantly, he actually took the time to make sure that the scripts he made were not only accurate, but also read well.

In fact, even Tom Slattery took liberties with the scripts he made, like when he decided to make almost everyone in FFIV talk in a flowery, Elizabethian style that wasn't there in the original. Or when he made the Dark Elf talk normally instead of tALKING iN aLL kATAKANA lIKE hE dID iN tHE oRIGINAL vERSION (one thing the PSX version actually got right). Or when he made Scarmiglione "ussssssse a lot of sssssss's in all his wordsssssss" (also not present in the original).

[ABED]

Pardon my ignorance, what is the difference between translation and localization?

[Fionordequester]

Pardon my ignorance, what is the difference between translation and localization?

Basically...

Translation: Translating the text, with japanese idioms included and everything, no matter how awkward they sound (so basically, what Steve Simmons did for the subtitles).

Localization: Taking said translation, and turning it into an actually legible script, with whatever liberties the writers think will benefit the script, even if those liberties are as small as re-arranging words in a sentence in a way that an actual english speaker would say it. So, basically, this is what a "translated line" would look like (

Translated Vegeta (to Goku after killing Recoome and Burter): It sickens me with how utterly lenient you are!

And here's an example of how a localizer would "localize" the line...

Localized Vegeta:It's sickening to me the way you're so quick to show mercy!

[Metalwario64]

Pardon my ignorance, what is the difference between translation and localization?

Basically...

Translation: Translating the text, with japanese idioms included and everything, no matter how awkward they sound (so basically, what Steve Simmons did for the subtitles).

Localization: Taking said translation, and turning it into an actually legible script, with whatever liberties the writers think will benefit the script, even if those liberties are as small as re-arranging words in a sentence in a way that an actual english speaker would say it. So, basically, this is what a "translated line" would look like (

Translated Vegeta (to Goku after killing Recoome and Burter): It sickens me with how utterly lenient you are!

And here's an example of how a localizer would "localize" the line...

Localized Vegeta:It sickening to me the way you're so quick to show mercy!

I like Simmons' translation, but it was a bit stiff and overly literal at times. I think his Kai translation was much better, and the dialog felt more natural. One example I recall is Goku telling Vegeta in the Z translation that he's gonna "give Vegeta his fill of the Genki Dama", but his Kai translation is that he's gonna "force the Genki Dama right down his throat".

[Fionordequester]

To be fair, the above Vegeta line I posted may have come from a fan translation. I'm not sure whether or not it was actually Steve Simmon's, just so you know

[ABED]

obviously Simmons' subtitles wouldn't work as a script, but I don't think they are nearly as stiff as you think, especially the line about giving him his fill of the Genki Dama. "Shoving it down his throat" sounds like an embellishment, and doesn't quite sound like Goku to me.

And the "utterly lenient" line is something I can imagine an English speaker saying, though I will grant you that "It sickening to me the way you're so quick to show mercy!" sounds more like Vegeta.

[Herms]

Translated Vegeta (to Goku after killing Recoome and Burter): It sickens me with how utterly lenient you are!

And here's an example of how a localizer would "localize" the line...

Localized Vegeta:It's sickening to me the way you're so quick to show mercy!

Both of these are simply translations. There's a difference between strict/literal translations, more liberal/natural-sounding ones, and actual localization. It's probably best to say that translation of any sort is simply one part of the larger localization process. And sometimes localization might not even involve full-fledged language translation at all, like when localizing something from the UK for the US market or vice-verse. From Wikipedia:

Language localization differs from translation activity because it involves a comprehensive study of the target culture in order to correctly adapt the product to local needs. Localization can be referred to by the numeronym L10N (as in: "L", followed by ten more letters, and then "N").

The localization process is most generally related to the cultural adaptation and translation of software, video games and websites, as well as audio/voiceover, video or other multimedia content, and less frequently to any written translation (which may also involve cultural adaptation processes). Localization can be done for regions or countries where people speak different languages or where the same language is spoken: For instance, different dialects of Spanish, with different idioms, are spoken in Spain than are spoken in Latin America; likewise, word choices and idioms may vary even among countries which share a common language.

(And I've got to say...your first example strikes me as more natural-sounding than your second. I mean, I assume the "with" is a typo, so "it sickens me how utterly lenient you are" is a perfectly ordinary English sentence. Meanwhile, "it's sickening to me the way you're so quick to show mercy" just says the same thing, but with a lot of unnecessary words. In particular, "it's sickening to me" is a less effective phrasing than the more direct "it sickens me". And what reason is there to avoid using the word "lenient"? It's not exactly obscure. Something like "stop being so damn soft!" would probably be a better example here.)

[Fionordequester]

(And I've got to say...your first example strikes me as more natural-sounding than your second. I mean, I assume the "with" is a typo, so "it sickens me how utterly lenient you are" is a perfectly ordinary English sentence. Meanwhile, "it's sickening to me the way you're so quick to show mercy" just says the same thing, but with a lot of unnecessary words.

My reasoning for the word choice I used was to match the syllable count of the original phrase (which had 13 syllables)...but, it turns out I miscounted (I ended up having 14 syllables instead), so, you still have a valid point here. As for why I matched for syllables, I was writing with lip flaps in mind.

In particular, "it's sickening to me" is a less effective phrasing than the more direct "it sickens me".

Duly noted. Make that change, and that actually brings the count back down too!

And what reason is there to avoid using the word "lenient"? It's not exactly obscure. Something like "stop being so damn soft!" would probably be a better example here.)

First of all, I think "lenient" is too soft of a word. Doesn't really carry the "punch" one would expect when, according to Vegeta, he's literally disgusted with Goku. Still, I probably should use "soft-hearted" instead. That's what I wanted to go with, but, I think I thought the word was too long or something. I could probably work it in there though.

As for having Vegeta swear...maybe it's just me and my Christian background, but I'd rather not have anyone swear unless they're someone who's supposed to be trashy (like your stereotypical bandit or bank-robber), or if the character says some equally strong statement in the Japanese version. And Vegeta's statement here doesn't seem like it's THAT strong...

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, I mean, we are talking about Vegeta here, who literally a moment earlier had murdered someone by crushing his windpipe. That doesn't qualify him as someone with low enough moral fiber for some good old-fashioned swearing?

On-point, though, it's funny you chose that specific line because that one has always been so memorable to me. I love that line. It sounds just like something Vegeta would say. And it certainly sounds strong enough to me. I just love that translation. Always have.

[Fionordequester]

Well, I mean, we are talking about Vegeta here, who literally a moment earlier had murdered someone by crushing his windpipe. That doesn't qualify him as someone with low enough moral fiber for some good old-fashioned swearing? .

Swearing is also something typically associated with someone who's not too bright though...which, admittedly, Vegeta isn't. But, he THINKS he is, and he takes a lot of pride in himself, so I feel like he would speak a teensy bit more loftily than, say, Nappa. Anyways though, taking your advice into consideration, and looking at the actual video this time (to see the mouth flaps), I think I'm come up with something much better. How's this?

Vegeta: You soft-hearted fool! Listening to you makes me sick!

[Metalwario64]

Well, I just checked Kai, and here's Simmons' translation for that line in it:

"Your treacly sentimentality always makes me sick".

I've... never heard the word "treacle" until now. For anyone like me, in this usage it means "cloying sentimentality or flattery." I guess it's an odd word to use, if a bit reduntant. If it was just "Your sentimentality always makes me sick", I think it'd be perfect. Another odd term I saw used was when Freeza was using that disc attack on Goku, and he referred to it as a "Bush-league move". That's another term I never heard until then, and it's a bit odd for Goku to use it, but I guess it fits in that case since he's using more refined speech as a Super Saiyan at that point from what I've heard.

Here's the Kai dub line, just for curiosity's sake:

"They got exactly what they deserved, and you, you make me sick!"

It ignores the sentimentality line, probably to fit the mouth movements, but the whole conversation makes it clear that he's annoyed at Goku's soft-heartedness.

[Fionordequester]

It ignores the sentimentality line, probably to fit the mouth movements...

Nah, they could have still worked it in there. The line I just wrote, for example, was written specifically to fit the video. I even said it aloud while watching said video! People say that it's hard to write for mouth flaps, but you still have quite a bit of freedom with what you want to write since the "flaps" mostly look the same anyway.

Another odd term I saw used was when Freeza was using that disc attack on Goku, and he referred to it as a "Bush-league move". That's another term I never heard until then, and it's a bit odd for Goku to use it, but I guess it fits in that case since he's using more refined speech as a Super Saiyan at that point from what I've heard.

Isn't it kind of anachronistic though? It reminds me of how the Ocean dub referred to Moby Dick and Goliath.

[Metalwario64]

Maybe, but it could be justified since Z filler had Yamcha playing baseball. So if you consider that canon or whatever, then baseball exists in the Dragon Ball universe, so maybe Goku saw it on TV once.

[Fionordequester]

Maybe, but it could be justified since Z filler had Yamcha playing baseball. So if you consider that canon or whatever, then baseball exists in the Dragon Ball universe, so maybe Goku saw it on TV once.

Hmm...huh. Turns out "bush-league" was just a jargon term that originated sometime in the 20's to refer to low budget, minor league baseball teams, and is not attributed to any specific team. And if it's not referring to any specific team...then it's not really anachronistic, is it? Okey doke then!

Anyways, I'm going to see if I can find the Japanese version of the next scene I really like! Look forward to it!

[Fionordequester]

Alright then, here we go! So ok, you guys remember that dream sequence Gohan had? Where he dreamed about Goku coming home, only for him to actually be Frieza in disguise? This one?

FUNI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNjs2YVmlP8=&t=6m06s

Japanese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6AZ0xZ6duw&t=6m06s

Well, in addition to that being one of my favorite scenes period (for how heartwarming it was), that was also one scene I liked better than the Japanese version. I say this because...

1) THE MUSIC! Oh man the music! It's the so called "Time Chamber" theme, and in addition to being one of the most gentle, uplifting melodies I've ever heard, it also has this dreamy quality to it that fits very well with the cloudy atmosphere, and the unusual color palette used in this scene. Plus, IMO, fits better than the "Head Cha La" instrumental. I mean, the instrumental is really good stuff, but it doesn't fit the dreamy atmosphere quite as well I think.

Also, the sting at 6:55, a pitched up version of the beginning of Vegeta's death (three pitches higher to be exact) is probably one of the most emotional stings in the entirety of the FUNI dub. It's so emotional in fact, that I consider it criminal that the "Vegeta's Death" theme wasn't composed three pitches higher than it actually was, as featured here...

Vegeta's Death Pitched Up to F

2) I really love Cynthia Cranz's performance here, especially the way she says "what's a year and a half?" It practically exudes love and longing in a way that I really wish came through more in her usual take on Chi-Chi. In fact, the performances here are all good, aside from Gohan overacting a little. So the great music isn't ruined by how inexperienced the voice actors were back then.

3) The dialogue is mostly similar to the Japanese version, but the few lines they did add in fit the scene pretty well I thought, especially the "tough guy" comment, and Goku's remark about Chi-Chi not wanting to hear a long story right before dinner...

[Herms]

Maybe, but it could be justified since Z filler had Yamcha playing baseball. So if you consider that canon or whatever, then baseball exists in the Dragon Ball universe, so maybe Goku saw it on TV once.

Gohan plays baseball at Orange Star High School in the manga, so there's that.

[ABED]

There's one that I'm fond of. After Mr. Satan is informed that his daughter took a beating, he runs out of his room yelling, "Daddy's coming, Sugar beet!"