Goku vs. Superman

[JSnively03]

So it's been some time since I posted the comment about Goku vs. Superman. Here's more.

So first off, I want to begin by saying that travel speed and combat speed are not the same and that lifting strength does not impact how hard you punch.

Don't believe me? Look here, it even applies to humans.

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-trai ... hing-power

Anyway. To the categories (Strength, speed, durability, and skills).

1: So if you can't tell already, Goku is pretty fast. I mean EXTREMELY fast. Superman is FTL in combat speed and flying speed, but only in the future. Superman flew to the sun and back to Earth in some time, I don't even know, all I know is that he was flying (Flying, not fighting) faster than light. Many DCtards like to say just because he was punching Wonder Woman at the same time means he was also FTL in combat when he was fighting Wonder Woman while flying to the sun and back to Earth. Not only is this logic flawed, but it's just completely stupid. Heck, even Wonder Woman backs up my claim (Superman wasn't FTL in speed before the future) when she says it herself. Unfortunately, the scan is to blurry to read, but I'll still paste the image URL.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... LLf-ktCXFQ

Conclusion: Superman (Post-Crisis) is not FTL before the future.

Now, on to Goku's speed. Goku has shown some pretty impressive speed feats. Goku dodged a laser as a kid, and many DC tards will tell you to prove it's a laser. A little advice, if they tell you to prove something that the manga already portrays, just ignore them.

Anyway.

A laser is concentrated light. Heck, a laser pulse is 300 times faster than light. So just imagine how fast a laser is. But here's the thing, we don't NEED to make assumptions to prove that lasers are faster than light. We have this beautiful link right here.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... eed-record

This right here proves that all lasers are faster than light. And yes, lasers in fiction are faster than light. I get people that were mere humans dodged lasers, but that's because they aim-dodge. We also know that he moved when the laser was firing, because Goku didn't even know what a laser was at the time.

And considering that he becomes faster as Dragon Ball progresses, I think it's pretty safe to say he's more than light speed in the Saiyan Saga (Combat speed).

But here's another argument DC tards use. They'll tell you that if Goku was faster than light in the Saiyan Saga, he would've traveled across Snake Way in seconds. It's because he couldn't travel faster than light in the Saiyan Saga, he could only fight and react to things faster than light.

Give the fact that Goku can fight several times light speed in the Freeza Saga, it's safe to say that he's much faster than Superman when it comes to combat speed.

Goku: 1

Superman: 0

2: Strength is obvious. Superman lifted Earth.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... -28153.jpg

Goku: 1

Superman: 1

3: Durability is where a ton of scans come in. Both have shown durability feats. As we know, Cell could bust a solar system. It even said in the guide books that SSJ 2 Gohan was a solar system buster because he deflected Cell's attack.

Here's scans for both:

http://i.imgur.com/09bxE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yINf81l.jpg

That being said, Buu's Kamehameha would've been stronger than Cell's Kamehameha because Buu is so much more powerful than Cell. And guess what? SSJ 3 Goku tanked the blast!

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/55 ... _super.gif

Superman was knocked out by a supernova. Now my buddy +Sun Wukong comes in to prove that surviving a supernova is pretty poor for DBZ standards. If a decently powered supernova is a decent amount of miles away from Earth and the some of the supernova hits it, it's either going to spin or mess up our orbit or leave a ton of radiation in the atmosphere. But anyway, here's a scan of Superman surviving a supernova.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... onfeat.jpg

I'm not using the 50x supernova feat because he didn't tank the full blast of that supernova.

Goku: 2

Superman: 1

4: Skills and techniques really affect a battle. Think about it, I bring a gun that's pretty powerful, but someone brings a lot more than I do to the fight. The guy that has more guns is going to win.

Anyway. Here's their powers.

Goku: Afterimage Technique - A typical distraction technique where through a short burst of speed Goku is able to leave an afterimage of his body behind which often causes the opponent to attack. Goku as a child in the 21st World Martial Arts tournament could leave 3 images behind, but by the time of the cell games Goku can leave an innumerable number of afterimages behind.

Continuous Kamehameha - Goku's version of the Continuous Energy Volley where Goku fires many small blasts of energy in rapid succession in order to cause great damage. The technique has the downside of leaving a large smokescreen from the explosions so if the attack fails it often gives the enemy a sneak attack.

Crazy Fist - A technique Goku came up with on the fly to counter Jackie Chun's Drunken Fist technique. Goku hopes around like a monkey giving him an air of unpredictability and uses his tail more.

Destructo Disk - A technique taken from Krillin where Goku forms a flat energy disk that can cut through most objects and enemies. Due to the lethal nature of the attack Goku only uses it when absolutely necessary, like cutting off Gohan's tail when he transformed.

Dragon Fist - One of Goku's ultimate techniques and the only one he created himself. Goku charges his fist with a golden ki dragon that resembeles Shenron and punches the opponent resulting in the dragon either devouring or impaling the opponent. This move is easily Goku's most powerful move besides the spirit bomb as he was able to blast a hole in Omega Shenron's chest who was more powerful than a Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

Dragonthrow - Goku's trademark grapple where he grabs a leg, tail, tentacle, or other extremity and spins them around and hammer throws them typically into a mountain.

Flight - Goku is able to manipulate his ki to self propel himself for flight. Goku can either levitate lightly or full on fly at high speed.

Fusion Dance - Goku learned the technique fro its creators the Metamorans while in the Other World. Goku can perform the dance with Vegeta in order to merge their bodies to form Gogeta. The techniques downside is that it only lasts for half an hour.

Hasshu-Ken - A technique copied and improved from King Chappa where Goku moves his arms so fast it appears he has eight arms for combat. This was used to counter Tenshinhan's Four Witches technique.

Homing Energy Wave - Goku can fire an energy wave that tracks and homes in on his opponent by locking onto their energy signature.
Instant Transmission - A technique that Goku learned from the Yardrats after his battle with Freeza. Goku typically places two fingers on his forehead and senses a ki signature and the instantly teleports to that location. The technique requires a lot of concentration so Goku can be interrupted or stopped by pressing the attack.

Janken Fist - Goku's original signature technique that was taught to him by his Grandpa Gohan. Gokku calls out the name of the attack and delivers either a punch (rock), slap (paper), or eye poke (scissors).

Kiai - An invisble energy wave that is often used to defeat and demoralize weaker opponents or cancel out attacks without using too much energy. Goku used this to defeat Chi-Chi and to cancel out Nappa's Break Cannon.

Kaio-ken (Pronounced"KAI-o-ken") - One of Goku's signature techniques that was taught to him by King Kai. King Kai has said that Goku is the sole student to master the attack so Goku is probably the sole user besides King Kai himself. The technique multiples Goku's ki power by 2X or more depending on how much Goku's body can take. Goku by the time of his battle with Freeza could multiple his ki by 20 times. The technique strains Goku's body so he must use it sparingly. This technique was superseded by the Super Saiyan transformation which put out more power, but put less strain on his body.

Kamehameha - Goku's most used technique and the staple move of the Turtle School invented by Master Roshi. Goku copied this move after watching Roshi perform it once and continued to use it for the rest of his life. The Kamehameha is a blue energy wave fired from cupped hands after pronouncing the name of the attack. Goku can perform many variations of the move like shooting it one handed, firing it from his feet, bending the kamehameha, and others.

Mimicry - Goku has a knack for for mimicking ki attacks after he has seen them performed. Goku learns the Kamehameha, Destructo Disk, Hasshu-Ken, and Solar Flare this way.

Solar Flare - A technique copied from Tenshinhan Shinhan where Goku places his hands around his face and releases a blinding flash of light used to blind opponents for either a quick getaway or as an opening for an attack.

Spirit Bomb - Goku's most powerful move outright where Goku gathers energy from the area around him to form a positive energy ball that is highly effective against beings of evil. Goku can expand his horizon and take energy from surrounding planets even taking a galaxy wide drain to defeat Kid Buu and a universe drain for Omega Shenron. The technique takes a very long time to complete so Goku typically needs someone like Piccolo or Vegeta to run interference

Super Kaio-ken - A last resort move where Goku uses the Kaio-Ken along with the Super Saiyan transformation for a very powerful combination. This move is very taxing on Goku's body as one punch was enough to cause Goku to run out of breath. Goku used this technique once against Paikuhan during the Other World Tournament.

Telekinesis - Goku is able to use ki to move objects with his mind, he demonstrated this by manipulating a glass of water until Chi-Chi interrupted him.

Telepathy - Goku is able to read minds by placing his palm on the head of the intended target or broadcast his thoughts to others.
Tornado - A move Goku came up with during his battle with Nam in the Semi-Finals of the World Martial Arts tournament. Goku spins around rapidly and moves around the ring hitting his opponent though the move will make him very dizzy.

Twin Kamehameha - A variation of the Kamehameha where Goku charges twin energy spheres that he can launch one at a time. The first time Goku used this was to test if Freeza only used his eyes instead of sensing energy.

And all of the Super Saiyan transformations.

Because I can't fit those lines into the comment to make it post, I'll give you this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and ... f_Superman

Goku: 3

Superman: 1

So there you have it, Goku would destroy Superman.

[JSnively03]

@VegettoEX fixed it, took out DCtards. Could you please remove that other post?

[fadeddreams5]

I'm pretty sure your other topic wasn't locked just because you insulted the DC community. It was probably locked because this has been done to death.

There's an on-going discussion over the matter here:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=30849

[theherodjl]

Deathbattle has determine twice, that Goku is not able to defeat Superman.

Why? Because the way Superman is written is when he is pushed to the last straw, he'll always find a way to defeat any level of opponent he faces. Whether it be street thugs, mad scientists with super-tech, aliens gods and monsters capable of busting planets, cosmic entities capable of busting galaxies & universes, and even a meta-primordial concept that was greater than the Presence.

Goku is written more to deal with threats in a consistent level of whomever has more Ki to be stronger and faster, he doesn't fight beings who possess almighty power to do as they please against all the laws of reality, logic, math, magic, etc.

It's not a bad thing that Goku loses really, since when does a character have to defeat another character in fiction to be awesome? They've already done everything in their own universes to our fandom appeciation, it's not like Goku being beaten by someone else means he is suddenly not a good or interesting character anymore.

[JSnively03]

Deathbattle has determine twice, that Goku is not able to defeat Superman.

Why? Because the way Superman is written is when he is pushed to the last straw, he'll always find a way to defeat any level of opponent he faces. Whether it be street thugs, mad scientists with super-tech, aliens gods and monsters capable of busting planets, cosmic entities capable of busting galaxies & universes, and even a meta-primordial concept that was greater than the Presence.

Goku is written more to deal with threats in a consistent level of whomever has more Ki to be stronger and faster, he doesn't fight beings who possess almighty power to do as they please against all the laws of reality, logic, math, magic, etc.

It's not a bad thing that Goku loses really, since when does a character have to defeat another character in fiction to be awesome? They've already done everything in their own universes to our fandom appeciation, it's not like Goku being beaten by someone else means he is suddenly not a good or interesting character anymore.

Seems like you didn't read my evidence. Read it and come back.

[theherodjl]

Deathbattle has determine twice, that Goku is not able to defeat Superman.

Why? Because the way Superman is written is when he is pushed to the last straw, he'll always find a way to defeat any level of opponent he faces. Whether it be street thugs, mad scientists with super-tech, aliens gods and monsters capable of busting planets, cosmic entities capable of busting galaxies & universes, and even a meta-primordial concept that was greater than the Presence.

Goku is written more to deal with threats in a consistent level of whomever has more Ki to be stronger and faster, he doesn't fight beings who possess almighty power to do as they please against all the laws of reality, logic, math, magic, etc.

It's not a bad thing that Goku loses really, since when does a character have to defeat another character in fiction to be awesome? They've already done everything in their own universes to our fandom appeciation, it's not like Goku being beaten by someone else means he is suddenly not a good or interesting character anymore.

Seems like you didn't read my evidence. Read it and come back.

I don't need to?
Superman has lifted up a book that had infinite pages therefore infinite mass, he demonstrated next-to-limitless physical strength even if Captain Marvel had to help him do it.
When Superman was flying after Supergirl at speeds unheard of even for him, Spectre had to physically block his path because his was in danger of destroying the universe and then forcefully entering Heaven.
Superman has tanked supernovas with no damage done to him, sneezed away solar systems(AKA Super Perfect Cell-level power just from sneezing), and his heat vision can fire off so vastly and hot that it can encompass a planet and turn it to ash.

No matter what Goku hasn't performed any feats as broken as this, even as SSJG. However as I have stated before, it's really not a bad thing that Goku loses because his character is one of growth through trials of training and he still has yet to reach his upper limit while Superman is at a level where limits are only as low as he wants to make them.

[ssjjanemba]

Goku vs Superman. Such great/painful memories....I'm glad that i stopped caring about that debate. Used to support Goku, but after a couple years passed i agreed that Superman would beat him.

[Chiki]

Deathbattle has determine twice, that Goku is not able to defeat Superman.

Why? Because the way Superman is written is when he is pushed to the last straw, he'll always find a way to defeat any level of opponent he faces. Whether it be street thugs, mad scientists with super-tech, aliens gods and monsters capable of busting planets, cosmic entities capable of busting galaxies & universes, and even a meta-primordial concept that was greater than the Presence.

Goku is written more to deal with threats in a consistent level of whomever has more Ki to be stronger and faster, he doesn't fight beings who possess almighty power to do as they please against all the laws of reality, logic, math, magic, etc.

It's not a bad thing that Goku loses really, since when does a character have to defeat another character in fiction to be awesome? They've already done everything in their own universes to our fandom appeciation, it's not like Goku being beaten by someone else means he is suddenly not a good or interesting character anymore.

Completely irrelevant argument. No one cares how Superman is written in a one-on-one fight in which we use pure reason.

[Berserker1921]

Deathbattle has determine twice, that Goku is not able to defeat Superman.

Why? Because the way Superman is written is when he is pushed to the last straw, he'll always find a way to defeat any level of opponent he faces. Whether it be street thugs, mad scientists with super-tech, aliens gods and monsters capable of busting planets, cosmic entities capable of busting galaxies & universes, and even a meta-primordial concept that was greater than the Presence.

Goku is written more to deal with threats in a consistent level of whomever has more Ki to be stronger and faster, he doesn't fight beings who possess almighty power to do as they please against all the laws of reality, logic, math, magic, etc.

It's not a bad thing that Goku loses really, since when does a character have to defeat another character in fiction to be awesome? They've already done everything in their own universes to our fandom appeciation, it's not like Goku being beaten by someone else means he is suddenly not a good or interesting character anymore.

Completely irrelevant argument. No one cares how Superman is written in a one-on-one fight in which we use pure reason.

Guys I love dbz and Goku as much as the next guy on here. However I know people are a little more biased here with dbz characters. But you have to admit Goku isn't in the same league or in the same universe of power that superman has. His character is about a god trying to fit in. Trying to be normal. While Goku is surpassing his limits to become the strongest he can become.

[rereboy]

Completely irrelevant argument. No one cares how Superman is written in a one-on-one fight in which we use pure reason.

Except that the writing made it so that Superman has feats way beyond anything Goku can ever hope to achieve, so unless you want to simply ignore that fact, in which case we would be talking about a particular version of superman as portrayed only in certain moments, disregarding others, there's no real debate.

[Alondite]

I mean, I HATE superman, and I understand that sups would destroy Goku.

For Goku to have a prayer, it'd have to be a morals off, out of character match where Goku is willing to win via Instant Movement and take Sups to a planet under a red sun to depower him.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Please, can we just let this die already? I am so tired of this whole thing.

[VegettoEX]

Seems like you didn't read my evidence. Read it and come back.

I'm struggling to understand why, after already having a thread locked and being given a free warning for being incredibly rude, you think this is an appropriate response to leave on this forum. If you wish to continue being able to post here, I would strongly recommend reviewing the community guidelines that you agreed to (twice) prior to registration. Account strikes add up to temporary/permanent bans, which revoke access to the ENTIRETY of Kanzenshuu. This is not something you should aspire to.

Please, can we just let this die already? I am so tired of this whole thing.

No-one is forcing you to participate in the discussion. You can simply not read it.

[Hugo Boss]

For Goku to have a prayer, it'd have to be a morals off, out of character match where Goku is willing to win via Instant Movement and take Sups to a planet under a red sun to depower him.

Hmm.. why it would be out of character for Goku to do that? His proud is more about not getting direct help from other people, but there were instances where Goku gave up on his pride or used some tatics to get an upper hand. I wouldn't be so surprised if for plot convenience he finds out Superman's weakness and uses against him.

[Sora Saiyan]

@Hugo Boss
Goku wouldn't do that to Supes unless there was something really important on the line. If it's was just a fight for shits and giggles he wouldn't.

[ShaneisMC]

The debate is generally stupid. Theres (more or less) 1 Goku and like 524783 Supermans with 9001 storylines and writers and the differences can be massive. Some he can destroy. Some he cant. The problem generally is that the ones he cant are the versions that are ABSURDLY OP and as ScrewAttack likes to say "limitless". Which is bullshit both from a literal and story standpoint. If you go into a fight with a "limitless" character then it was utterly pointless to begin with. Such a character cannot lose ultimately. The only fair way to do a fight would be to get a version of Superman that is comparable in strength to Goku and that isnt an all powerful battery. I dont know a whole lot about the specific iterations but its to my understanding that the All Star Superman can only receive so much solar energy or else it will overload his cells and kill him. And if I'm not mistaken the New 52 Supes isnt "limitless" either just really powerful. I could be wrong, but if not then THOSE are the sort of fights people should set up. Edit.http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_(All_Star) http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Superman%20(New%2052) http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Son%20Goku For whatever you may find their worth. I personally find that they do a really good job. Goku has both versions out ranked. Though New 52 in particular only barely. That sounds like a really good fight to me.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Theres (more or less) 1 Goku and like 524783 Supermans with 9001 storylines and writers and the differences can be massive.

Eh, I wouldn't say that.

You've got:

Manga Goku
Anime Goku
Toei Movie Goku
GT Goku
The Magic Begins Goku
Evolution Goku
Video game Goku

etc.

[dbgtFO]

Had Superman or any Superman character acquired the capability to destroy planets 30 years into the franchise?
Really what were their abilities after 30 years? Dragon Ball characters became capable of destroying planets after 5 years, if Vegeta's statements can be trusted.
Who knows, maybe in another 30 years Dragon Ball characters will have the same crazy feats Superman characters had pre crisis.

[ShaneisMC]

Youve got Toriyama Goku obviously. The only maybe conflicting thing i see for a lot of people is also Toei Goku because of some filler, movies, and GT. Which fair enough even though I'm pretty sure one of the daizenshuu says the movies take place in different dimensions. Buts thats about as confusing as it gets. Not saying its not confusing but relatively speaking its practically no hassle. As far as the few couple live action movies go...... Seriously?....... Seriously. No one in their right mind i would imagine includes them for obvious reasons. As far as video games go I've personally never really seen people debate about characters game feats unless they were of course specifically video game characters.

[theherodjl]

Had Superman or any Superman character acquired the capability to destroy planets 30 years into the franchise?
Really what were their abilities after 30 years? Dragon Ball characters became capable of destroying planets after 5 years, if Vegeta's statements can be trusted.
Who knows, maybe in another 30 years Dragon Ball characters will have the same crazy feats Superman characters had pre crisis.

I would guess so, Superman as a boy had enough strength to move an entire galaxy's habitable planets during the Silver Age, if he felt like it he could totally smash one to bits by smacking it or crushing it.
I think Goku's feats don't go as far because Toriyama is not like a DC writer, he seems to be stuck in the mindset that DBZ strength is all about hitting harder, moving faster, and destroying planets easier. It get so arbitrary because there's nothing to scale it with, we don't know how much greater they get by any amount of higher battle power if there even seems to be that much more of a difference because Toriyama can't imagine feats getting more broad than how he depicts it.