Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

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Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:53 pm

The Daizenshuu 7 states Gohan's power hadn't changed since he was a boy. How can we make this work? Well, the Manga makes a clear distinction between Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation and his 'Enraged' power. There is a clear distinction here. Clearly, Gohan could still be a Super Saiyan 2 and as powerful as he was when he was a brat, but he may appear 'weaker' due to Vegeta & Goku comparing his power level to that of his enraged power.

The Daizenshuu 7 also states Gotenks Pre-ROST was weaker than Majin Vegeta Ssj2. Thoughts on this?

In the Super exciting guide we see that it state's the Potara's multiplier as "A x B". Further-more, in the Daizenshuu 7 it states the Potara as more like 'multiplication than simple addition'. This also means that the power levels for the Majin Boo saga would sky-rocket into the trillions. That is before we consider fighters such as Beerus, Whiss, Golden Frieza, SSJG & the SSJG SS transformations -they appear to be within their own realm of power and light years beyond even the Potara.

Example
Goku 'Base' 90,000,000
Vegeta 'Base' 90,000,000

Vegetto 'Base' 8,100,000,000,000,000
Vegetto 'Mssj' 16,200,000,000,000,000
Even following 'maximum Gotenks wank' logic, I was unable to come even remotely close to the above number. I made Gotenks Base Pre, superior to Majin Vegeta Ssj2 and even gave him a 50x multiplier for Super Saiyan. I made his Base Post twice as strong as his Ssj Pre and applied a 50x boost for Super Saiyan and still fell infinitely short of Vegetto's Base when I approached Boohan's power level.

It seems inconsistent and doesn't work very well.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:02 pm

h0kuten wrote:The Daizenshuu 7 also states Gotenks Pre-ROST was weaker than Majin Vegeta Ssj2. Thoughts on this?
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8549551/1/?x=90

Copied because I couldn't word it better myself.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:25 pm

Re: Gohan
I think the original story should never had portrayed Adult Gohan as Super Saiyan 2. Instead, make that his unaccesible enraged form.

Re: Gotenks
The guidebook isn't that clear about Gotenks not being able to surpass Vegeta before the RoSaT. It's just that he only does stuff proving he is stronger than Vegeta after his training.

Re: Potara
Being more like multiplication isn't equal to being a multiplication. It's just a way to say the result is a pretty strong warrior.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by Kaboom » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:54 pm

Here's my succinct favored approaches to each point...


Gohan's suffering SS2 power: Simple. His base and SS1 forms' powers haven't changed, but his SS2 power has. The book in question says that his SS2 power is deficient because he lacks anger AND he hadn't been training. He's already mastered his SS1 state, but presumably he went those 7 years without doing jack diddly for his new SS2 form. We're told that Super Saiyan forms require training and practice to use easily and efficiently, and it seems to me like Gohan can't even reach SS2 without considerable effort. It stands to reason it may not be as powerful as it should, either.



Gotenks' initial inferiority to Vegeta: Honestly, there's nothing technically wrong with just taking it to mean their top powers, and that Gotenks was still a "work in progress" prior to his RoSaT training. There's a suspicious lack of definite comparative statements about his power, in an arc that's otherwise chock full of them. Unless Goku's trained under both Muten Roshi AND his fortune-telling sister, his predictions about Gotenks' power are really no more than glorified guesses. Then when the others DO witness Gotenks firsthand, there's pretty much only generic "wow so strong" comments, rather than any "he's every bit as strong as Goku said" or "he could totally thrash Boo now." Actually, there's ONE such statement that I can remember, but it was from and about base Gotenks and was very, VERY incorrect.

Besides, it's not like Gotenks' power during that part of the story even matters, since he never got to fight anyway. So by all means, someone can go ahead and consider SS Gotenks to be initially somewhat weaker than SS2 Vegeta if they want.



Potara as multiplication: Super-simple explanation... don't take it literally, because I sincerely doubt the SEG's writers meant for you to do so.

Besides, from an in-universe perspective it's literally impossible to multiply battle powers together. The numbers we toss around are just one particular scale, that of scouters. But what happens if you measure Goku and Vegeta's power in kiri instead before they merge? Is Vegetto going to be thousands of times weaker as a result just because Goku and Vegeta's powers were measured with a different scale? Why even use scouter numbers anyway? Would an eons-old magical artifact of the gods use the numerical power-measuring system of some gadgets devised only recently by a mortal race?

Instead of numbers, just think of someone's ki as a large "blob" of power. You can add another blob to perform "Blob + Blob" to get 2Blob, or you could bring in 4 other blobs to do "Blob x5" and get 5Blob. But you can't multiply Blob x Blob to get Blob². "Blob" has no numerical value until you make one up, and someone else could totally eff up your math if they decide to use a different scale than you.
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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:39 am

h0kuten wrote:The Daizenshuu 7 states Gohan's power hadn't changed since he was a boy. How can we make this work? Well, the Manga makes a clear distinction between Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation and his 'Enraged' power. There is a clear distinction here. Clearly, Gohan could still be a Super Saiyan 2 and as powerful as he was when he was a brat, but he may appear 'weaker' due to Vegeta & Goku comparing his power level to that of his enraged power.

The Daizenshuu 7 also states Gotenks Pre-ROST was weaker than Majin Vegeta Ssj2. Thoughts on this?

In the Super exciting guide we see that it state's the Potara's multiplier as "A x B". Further-more, in the Daizenshuu 7 it states the Potara as more like 'multiplication than simple addition'. This also means that the power levels for the Majin Boo saga would sky-rocket into the trillions. That is before we consider fighters such as Beerus, Whiss, Golden Freeza, SSJG & the SSJG SS transformations -they appear to be within their own realm of power and light years beyond even the Potara.
The Super Exciting Guide doesn't explicitly state that it's Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto in terms of multiplication. It's very common to see X used to denote "cross", as in a combination of the two. For example, Street Fighter X Tekken or the most recent Digimon series, Digimon Xros Wars (Digimon Cross Wars), where it's just simply indicating a merging or a combination. So rather than it being a literal Goku's strength multiplied by Vegeta's results in Vegetto's, it can simply be saying that combining Goku and Vegeta makes Vegetto.

As for Daizenshuu 7's account with Gotenks and Vegeta, it can simply mean that Gotenks' base was weaker than Vegeta's Ss2 strength until the boys trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, which is what fits the overall dialogue of the story. They were indicated to be stronger as Ssj Gotenks than Vegeta was as Ssj2, with nothing suggesting this isn't the case, and then there's an indicated massive increase for them from their training in the Room, to where Piccolo suggested they may have even surpassed their old Ssj strength while in base form. As such, that's very well what it could mean.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:39 am

I see nothing wrong with the Gohan and Gotenks quotes.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:08 am

The Super Exciting Guide literally states that the Potara multiplier is Goku times Vegeta. This would mean that power levels become astronomical.

The Daizenshuu 7 statement states their training resulted in them surpassing Vegeta, meaning they hadn't beforehand.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:54 am

h0kuten wrote:The Super Exciting Guide literally states that the Potara multiplier is Goku times Vegeta. This would mean that power levels become astronomical.

The Daizenshuu 7 statement states their training resulted in them surpassing Vegeta, meaning they hadn't beforehand.
As Kaboom said, Goku's what times Vegeta's what? Goku's Kiri reading times Vegeta's Kiri readings? Why would is strictly follow scouter readings? It's too vague.

Again, for Gotenks being weaker than Vegeta to be true:
-Piccolo is crazy out of character
-Piccolo forgot Boo’s power/can’t measure Gotenks’s power
-Cause and effect doesn’t exist
-Everyone is delusional
-Everyone has blind faith in Goku
-It would be fine if Piccolo, Goku, and Vegeta went and took a nap after losing to #17 and #18

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:07 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
h0kuten wrote:The Super Exciting Guide literally states that the Potara multiplier is Goku times Vegeta. This would mean that power levels become astronomical.

The Daizenshuu 7 statement states their training resulted in them surpassing Vegeta, meaning they hadn't beforehand.
As Kaboom said, Goku's what times Vegeta's what? Goku's Kiri reading times Vegeta's Kiri readings? Why would is strictly follow scouter readings? It's too vague.
The description accompanying the image in the Super Exciting Guide clearly mentions Battle Power. IIRC the entry, as translated by Herms, went like this "Merging with the Potara is not as simple adding the two's battle powers together, but rather as tremendous as multiplication!"
Again, for Gotenks being weaker than Vegeta to be true:
-Piccolo is crazy out of character
-Piccolo forgot Boo’s power/can’t measure Gotenks’s power
-Cause and effect doesn’t exist
-Everyone is delusional
-Everyone has blind faith in Goku
-It would be fine if Piccolo, Goku, and Vegeta went and took a nap after losing to #17 and #18
Exactly. It's silly you have to accept information, that goes against what's found in the source material without getting a reason for why the source material gave off the wrong impression. At least Toriyama blatantly points out that he's contradicting his own material, when he claims silly stuff like Majin Buu being around before Bibidi.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:11 pm

Nobody really confirmed Gotenks Pre-ROST was at the level he was stated to be. You would have to give Gotenks the benefit of the doubt for it to be true. As for Gotenks' not being as strong as he was, it wouldn't affect Piccolo's character at all. They still had a full day of Earth training to get stronger.

The Super Exciting Guide explicitly states that fighter A x fighter B is the resulting strength of the Potara.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:14 pm

If Gotenks is weaker than Fat Boo, not only is the story nonsensical, but Piccolo is an idiot, Goku is a liar, both of them are murderers, Krillin is a bigger idiot, and Toriyama is a bad writer who misinforms his readers.

Goku's what X Vegeta's what? Does it specifically say Battle Power?

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:18 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:If Gotenks is weaker than Fat Boo, not only is the story nonsensical, but Piccolo is an idiot, Goku is a liar, both of them are murderers, Krillin is a bigger idiot, and Toriyama is a bad writer who misinforms his readers.

Goku's what X Vegeta's what? Does it specifically say Battle Power?
Goku let 300 million people die as a result of his fight with Majin Boo. That's 3x as many Native American's killed during the Colonial Wars. And 5x as many people killed during World War 2. Goku is definitely a murderer.

It can be reasonably explained that Goku's prediction didn't come true, it's really as simple as that.

Krillin called Gotenks 'haughty', which is arrogantly confident. Meaning he gave him the benefit of the doubt, implying he is actually weaker.

The only reason Piccolo sends the boys into the ROST early is because Super Boo can sense power levels, thus giving them no time to train and prepare for the fight, which was Piccolo's original intention.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:22 pm

h0kuten wrote:Goku let 300 million people die as a result of his fight with Majin Boo. That's 3x as many Native American's killed during the Colonial Wars. And 5x as many people killed during World War 2. Goku is definitely a murderer.
That wasn't intentional and could be fixed with the Dragon Balls. If Gotenks ends up weaker than Boo, there is no hope and the Earth and potentially Universe is doomed.
h0kuten wrote:It can be reasonably explained that Goku's prediction didn't come true, it's really as simple as that.
It's not reasonable. There's no reason to believe so looking at the story and it only stems from bias against Gotenks or insisting on following a guidebook tidbit in only one way that turns characters and writers into liars.
h0kuten wrote:Krillin called Gotenks 'haughty', which is arrogantly confident. Meaning he gave him the benefit of the doubt, implying he is actually weaker.
Base Gotenks, not Super Saiyan Gotenks.
dbgtFO wrote:The description accompanying the image in the Super Exciting Guide clearly mentions Battle Power. IIRC the entry, as translated by Herms, went like this "Merging with the Potara is not as simple adding the two's battle powers together, but rather as tremendous as multiplication!"
Ah, okay. Thank you for clarifying. (I just saw this post).

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:27 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
h0kuten wrote:Goku let 300 million people die as a result of his fight with Majin Boo. That's 3x as many Native American's killed during the Colonial Wars. And 5x as many people killed during World War 2. Goku is definitely a murderer.
That wasn't intentional and could be fixed with the Dragon Balls. If Gotenks ends up weaker than Boo, there is no hope and the Earth and potentially Universe is doomed.
It still occurred and Goku didn't even care about it. He left the Earth and didn't fix the issue before-hand or make any sort of plan. He is a murderer.

There is hope with Earth training.

h0kuten wrote:It can be reasonably explained that Goku's prediction didn't come true, it's really as simple as that.
It's not reasonable. There's no reason to believe so looking at the story and it only stems from bias against Gotenks or insisting on following a guidebook tidbit in only one way that turns characters and writers into liars.
There is no bias. I'm just not giving a character the benefit of the doubt when there is no underlying truth after 'said statements'; aka, confirmation that the statements were actually true. All the canon material after the Majin Boo Saga says otherwise and even depicts Good Boo as superior to Base or Super Saiyan Gotenks Post-ROST, both in Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super. These events occur after Toriyama read the entire Manga. He read the Japanese version which is more accurate than the Herms or Viz translations. Yet he still agrees with Good Boo being superior to both versions of Gotenks. Quite clearly, Gotenks doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt -at least according to Toriyama.
h0kuten wrote:Krillin called Gotenks 'haughty', which is arrogantly confident. Meaning he gave him the benefit of the doubt, implying he is actually weaker.
Base Gotenks, not Super Saiyan Gotenks.
There is still no validity after the fact.
So do we agree that the Potara is fighter A x fighter b?

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:35 pm

It still occurred and Goku didn't even care about it. He left the Earth and didn't fix the issue before-hand or make any sort of plan. He is a murderer.

There is hope with Earth training.
He didn't do anything about it because he would let Gotenks beat Boo first. That much is obvious. That's the whole reason he was stalling for the Dragon Radar. If he revives all of those people before Gotenks beats Boo, they could get killed again which would make the wish a waste.
There is no bias. I'm just not giving a character the benefit of the doubt when there is no underlying truth after 'said statements'; aka, confirmation that the statements were actually true. All the canon material after the Majin Boo Saga says otherwise and even depicts Good Boo as superior to Base or Super Saiyan Gotenks Post-ROST, both in Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super. These events occur after Toriyama read the entire Manga. He read the Japanese version which is more accurate than the Herms or Viz translations. Yet he still agrees with Good Boo being superior to both versions of Gotenks. Quite clearly, Gotenks doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt -at least according to Toriyama.
Just curious, every time you say "Toriyama doesn't misinform his readers", does that only work when it's convenient for you?

Good Boo is never shown to be stronger than SS Gotenks.
There is still no validity after the fact.
Besides Krillin later explicitly saying that Gotenks is what's strongest, but let me guess, he's only reliable when he fits your argument?

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:40 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
It still occurred and Goku didn't even care about it. He left the Earth and didn't fix the issue before-hand or make any sort of plan. He is a murderer.

There is hope with Earth training.
He didn't do anything about it because he would let Gotenks beat Boo first. That much is obvious. That's the whole reason he was stalling for the Dragon Radar. If he revives all of those people before Gotenks beats Boo, they could get killed again which would make the wish a waste.
He didn't even make a game plan for what happens after Gotenks beats Boo. Why? Probably because he wasn't certain if he could or not. He reveals this during the opening bout with Kid Boo where he states he wanted the younger generation to figure out a way to win one way or another -implying he actually wasn't certain if fusion would be enough and also implies that they would need to find a way to win without his help AFTER fusion has become a relevant option.
There is no bias. I'm just not giving a character the benefit of the doubt when there is no underlying truth after 'said statements'; aka, confirmation that the statements were actually true. All the canon material after the Majin Boo Saga says otherwise and even depicts Good Boo as superior to Base or Super Saiyan Gotenks Post-ROST, both in Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super. These events occur after Toriyama read the entire Manga. He read the Japanese version which is more accurate than the Herms or Viz translations. Yet he still agrees with Good Boo being superior to both versions of Gotenks. Quite clearly, Gotenks doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt -at least according to Toriyama.
Just curious, every time you say "Toriyama doesn't misinform his readers", does that only work when it's convenient for you?
This statement is irrelevant to my point. I will not comment on it.

Good Boo is never shown to be stronger than SS Gotenks.
He is in battle of gods. However, in the original manga he isn't shown to be weaker either.
There is still no validity after the fact.
Besides Krillin later explicitly saying that Gotenks is what's strongest, but let me guess, he's only reliable when he fits your argument?
Krillin states that Goku said fusion is strongest and is the reason he believes the ideal.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:47 pm

If we're going to take the entry literally, then it means Super Saiyan Gotenks was weaker than at least 3 guys. I'm guessing this would be the Saiyans, but it could also include Piccolo. Just from a story standpoint, how would that make sense? That sounds like a shit increase for Fusion and Super Saiyan. Really, it could just be referring to Base Gotenks.
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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:50 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:If we're going to take the entry literally, then it means Super Saiyan Gotenks was weaker than at least 3 guys. I'm guessing this would be the Saiyans, but it could also include Piccolo. Just from a story standpoint, how would that make sense? That sounds like a shit increase for Fusion and Super Saiyan. Really, it could just be referring to Base Gotenks.
But it states the ROST resulted in him surpassing Vegeta, implying he hadn't beforehand.

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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:01 pm

But it could be talking about Base Gotenks.
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Re: Some issues with the Daizenshuu 7 & Super Exciting Guide

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:02 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:But it could be talking about Base Gotenks.
Base Gotenks Post-ROST could surpass Majin Vegeta. However, it still implies Ssj Gotenks Pre is weaker.

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