Theory on Kaioken

[Borros]

Hello evrybody !

As we told me of create a new topic, I exposes you the theory here (I do not approve it but I would like to know of what you think of this theory).

Certain people argue that the sentence of Tenshinhan, at Kaio, did not speak about the power of Gokû which is mutliplié by 10 in Kaioken x10 but whom Tenshinhan spoke about the power of Kaioken which increases tenfold.

There is a theory on Kaioken which says that simple Kaioken multiplies the power of Gokû by 1,5.

For example:

Gokû base = 100
Simple Kaioken (x1) = 100 + 50% = 150
Gokû Kaioken x2 = 100 + 50x2 = 200
Gokû Kaioken x3 = 100 + 50x3 = 250
Gokû Kaioken x4 = 100 + 50x4 = 300
Gokû Kaioken x10 = 100 + 50x10 = 600
Gokû Kaioken x20 = 100 + 50x20 = 1100

What do you think about that ?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I think it's nonsense with no basis in fact.

[Borros]

I do not really agree with this theory also.

It is just fans who support that and I wanted to know of what the members of Kanzenshuu think of it.

Really, when Gokû fights Ginyu, he reaches 90 000 units having activated the technique of Kaioken because he says "Kaioken" before reaching 90 000. Thus Gokû in its base form was probably unless 90 000 units.

Furthermore, Tenshinhan when he speaks to Kaio du Kaioken x10 when Gokû fights against Freezer, he does not say that it is the power of Gokû that increases tenfold but what it is the power of simple Kaioken which increases tenfold, I am wrong ?

[nickzambuto]

If normal "Kaioken" already doubles power, then "Kaioken x2" actually multiplies power by three, and then "Kaioken x3" actually multiplies it by four, that would get confusing, and wouldn't make any sense from a battle powers perspective. I do prefer to think of it the way OP presented.

[Borros]

Yes, but unfortunately the powers which we see in Daizenshuu were not made by Akira Toriyama, no?

The big problem remains the page when tells Tenshinhan to Kaio that Gokû can multiply 10 times the power. But he speaks about the power of Kaioken or power of Gokû which increases tenfold?

Herms had translated this sentence by "multiplied his power by 10" but on another forum they say that Herms made a translation error, no?

I also add that I adhere not at all to this theory, she is not credible for my part, but I would like to know of what you thought of it.

[Anime Kitten]

Makes sense to me. It would certainly be less confusing than, as mentioned above, doubling, tripling, etc. Of course, Kaioken will more than likely never come into play again, but in the event that it did, without a provided formula, this is what I'd go with to keep it easy.

[Angelus]

I just think Kaioken is the same ask Kaioken x2 since Kaioken's main function was to double your power level. So Kaioken x3 would be to triple, x4 to quadruple, and so on

[Herms]

Herms had translated this sentence by "multiplied his power by 10" but on another forum they say that Herms made a translation error, no?

No, not really.

例の界王拳のことをわすれてやしないか？いまの悟空なら最大１０倍ぐらいのパワーまでならなんとか耐えられるんでしょう？
“Aren’t you forgetting about the Kaiō-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?”

[DanielSSJ]

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Not only does it not match up with how the official power levels are presented, but it's just simpler for it to just multiply the character's power level by the number that is present in the name (Kaioken x2 doubles the users power, Kaioken x3 triples it, etc.) As Occam's Razor says, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The whole, Kaioken VS Kaioken x2 thing is just an inconsistency that exists in the Saiyan arc only.

[Kaboom]

The narrator straight-up declares that the regular Kaio-Ken doubled Goku's power, and the "x2" was seemingly only tacked on to it to emphasize that fact and help segue into him using the x3 next. The original manga is pretty much crystal-clear on the topic, and it's only the guidebooks that make things complicated by acting like the standard Kaio-Ken and a x2 are any different.

[Borros]

Herms had translated this sentence by "multiplied his power by 10" but on another forum they say that Herms made a translation error, no?

No, not really.

例の界王拳のことをわすれてやしないか？いまの悟空なら最大１０倍ぐらいのパワーまでならなんとか耐えられるんでしょう？
“Aren’t you forgetting about the Kaiō-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?”

Yes, the other versions of the manga also translate it like that.

But in Japanese version, Tenshinhan says "as he is now, Gokû is able endure a maximum of 10 times THE power, no ?"

We notice in Japanese version that Tenshinhan does not use the possessive adjective "his power" to speak about the power of Gokû, thus certain people interpret these words to say that Tenshinhan speaks in reality about the power of Kaioken which increases tenfold.

Japanese version : http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/11/46/87/74/captur11.png

Tenshinhan speaks about the power of Gokû which increases tenfold or he speaks about the power of Kaioken which increases tenfold ?

The narrator straight-up declares that the regular Kaio-Ken doubled Goku's power, and the "x2" was seemingly only tacked on to it to emphasize that fact and help segue into him using the x3 next. The original manga is pretty much crystal-clear on the topic, and it's only the guidebooks that make things complicated by acting like the standard Kaio-Ken and a x2 are any different.

Oh it is not about the compartment of the narrator when Gokû faces Vegeta? Can you show me an image of the English version because I have only the Japanese version on my computer, please ?

[Kaboom]

Oh it is not about the compartment of the narrator when Gokû faces Vegeta? Can you show me an image of the English version because I have only the Japanese version on my computer, please ?

Sure, here you go. And Herms' translation for good measure:

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

[Borros]

Oh, thank you very much for your image !

Thus if simple Kaioken multiplies the power by 2, then that means that Kaioken = Kaioken x2. It is the same thing, no ?

But I am again going to wait for the translation of Herms has subject of the sentence of Tenshinhan because apparently she still carries in the confusion. http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/11/46/87/74/captur11.png

[Rubens]

I'd like to add that Kaio-sama specifically tells Goku, before he left, not to use more than two-fold kaio-ken. There's a chance that lower levels of it can be used for smaller boosts (a 10% boost, a 30% one, 50%, 70, etc), being x2 the maximum, even though the narration somewhat negates that...

On the main subject, I don't really see the point of complicating a concept that was inicially created to simplify power increases.

[Borros]

Yes I completely agree with you when you say that this theory complicates a technique which was create just to simplify the increases of powers.

But I do not agree to this theory, moreover it is not me who made her.

But I am again going to wait for the translation of Herms has subject of the sentence of Tenshinhan because apparently she still carries in the confusion. http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/11/46/87/74/captur11.png

[Supaman]

Hi everyone !
I am one of those who think that the kaioken (x1) does exist.
I'm french so excuse me for my expression.

2 years ago, I thought too that "kaioken = kaioken x2", like the most of people. But when I saw the Toriyama's interview, I began to change my opinion.

First of all, there is a confusion because Goku doesn't say everytime which kaioken he's using.

“Toriyama Thought of It Like This” Special

"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

So, if Akira Toriyama thought that the SSJ was about a 10-fold change, then he didn't feel the kaioken x10 like a 10-fold change from Goku's battle force : it would be inconsistent.
And if Akira Toriyama thought that the SSJ was about a 10-fold change from Goku kaioken x20, then the so-called 50-fold was indeed a bit of an exaggeration and the 200-fold would be a very BIG exaggeration : it would be inconsistent.

Source : [spoiler][/spoiler]

"ただ当時、超サイヤ人になると、約50倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。
作者の気持ちとしては、今までの10倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。"

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

I know that the most of you knew already this interview. I know too that some of you considered that A. Toriyama forgot his story because it seems inconsistent with what we thought to know about how to works the kaioken.
But... What if there was no error?
Maybe my theory would be the correct reading.


My feeling about SSJ et Kaioken is that they are boosters.
They work much like sound booster.
A sound booster multiplies the incoming signal.
If the sound booster is at 0, the incoming signal stay at the same power (and the loud speaker doesn't work).
At 1, the sound booster multiplied the incoming signal.
Etc...

Here is the theory :

The simple Kaioken exists and its faculty is to multiply by 1.5 the battle force. So its raw power is + 50% of the battle force.
The Kaioken doubling the battle force being "Kaioken x2". (+ 100%)
The Kaioken which increase 3-fold the battle force being "Kaioken x4". (+ 200%)
The Kaioken which increase 6-fold the battle force being "Kaioken x10". (+ 500%)

Saiyans saga :
Don't forget that Goku doesn't need to say everytime which kaioken he's using!

Goku base was at 8400.
Goku kaioken (x1) : 12600 (+50%)
Goku kaioken (x2) : 16800 (+100%)
Goku kaioken (x3) : 21000 (+150%)

Freezer saga :
When he just came on Namek, Goku base was at 72000.
Don't forget that Goku doesn't need to say everytime which kaioken he's using!

Goku base : 72000
Goku kaioken (x3) : 180000 (+150%)

Then no more battle force with number.
The only thing that we know is that Vegeta goes from approximately 30000 to approximately less than 530000.
So I think that Toriyama changed the unwritten "ZPU rule" to upgrade Vegeta, Gohan and Goku.


[spoiler][/spoiler]
The first time that Goku use the kaioken. My feeling is that it's the first and last time that Goku use the kaioken x1 (+50%). At 8400, he already exceeds Nappa. If Nappa was at 8000, Goku would be at 12400 : a ratio to more than 1.5. For memory, Vegeta with 24000 exceeds totally Kiwi with 18000 : a ratio to 1.33.


[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The second time that we see Goku using the kaioken. Notice that Goku say "I will show you... The Kaioken" ("Kaioken da").
At this time, as a reader, we don't know which kaioken Goku's using.


[spoiler][/spoiler]
It is the narrator who tells us : it was the Kaioken doubling the battle force.
Not "the Kaioken, which doubles the battle force". There is no comma. So the ambiguity does exist. Goku didn't use the kaioken x1 (+50%) but the kaioken doubling the battle force (kaioken x2 +100%).


[spoiler][/spoiler]
No comma. So the ambiguity does exist.
Notice : "The power of Vegeta surpasses Goku's forecasts. This power is not a power that even the Kaioken doubling the fighting force can dominate. What will you do, Goku?"

http://www.noelshack.com/2016-43-147781 ... -0597.jpeg
Then Goku makes clear saying "Kaioken x2 !". No problem.


[spoiler][/spoiler]
Then Goku tells us about his own conclusion "I can't keep on... Even with the kaioken x2!"
The word "even" induces comparison with the kaioken x1. Quite simply.
Still doubt? Look at the next picture!


[spoiler][/spoiler]
Goku says that his body could endure the Kaioken 10-fold approximately.
"juubai gurai no kaioken".


[spoiler][/spoiler]
Ginyu guess that Goku has a battle power at 60000 approximately.


[spoiler][/spoiler]
Then, after some warming up, Ginyu made a new estimation : more than 60000.
But... Is Goku base at maximum ?


[spoiler][/spoiler]
Yes, Goku base was at his maximum. To free himself, he must use the Kaioken.
But... At this moment, we only know that he's at more than 60000. But less than...


[spoiler][/spoiler]
Less than 85000. Goku base is between more than 60000 and less than 85000.
Another proof : Goku needs to use kaioken to just reach 90000 and exceed it.
However, Goku will achieve to 180000 with kaioken (x??).
If Goku base is at 72000, everything is working. So we can guess that he used the kaioken x3.

One more clue.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Tien uses an expression similar to previously.
He says that Goku could endure the power 10-fold approximately.
"juubai gurai no pawa"
I think that he means the power of the kaioken. Not the power of Goku.
I think that he use the word "power" instead of "kaioken" to avoid a repetition.
Don't forget! This is a conversation between Tien and King Kai (and Yamcha).


Tien: "No need to worry, Goku will win this fight ..."
Yamcha: "Huh?"
Tien: "Aren’t you forgetting about the Kaioken from the last time?"
Tien: "As Goku is now, he should endure a maximum of up to about 10-fold its power, right?"
Yamcha "But ..."
Yamcha "Yes !!!"
King Kai: "I'm sorry ......"
King Kai: "He is already using this Kaioken x10........."

"Juubai gurai no pawa" on this picture which means literally "power of approximately 10-fold", and "juubai gurai no kaioken" which means litterally "kaioken of approximately 10-fold" on a previously picture (Goku tells us).

I don't pretend that this theory is THE truth of the author.
But it has the merit to make consistent the story with the author's words.
Now... May everyone make his opinion.


thanks for reading

[STH]

Kaio-ken Technique= It doubles speed, power and other abilities.

Kaio-ken x2= [Kaio-ken Effect (It doubles all abilities)] and [User's Power Level X 2]
Kaio-ken x3= [Kaio-ken Effect] and [User's Power Level X 3]
Kaio-ken x4= [Kaio-ken Effect] and [User's Power Level X 4]
Kaio-ken x10= [Kaio-ken Effect] and [User's Power Level X 10]
Kaio-ken x20 = [Kaio-ken Effect] and [User's Power Level X 20]

There has never been a power and speed increase directly proportional to power level in DB series.
Most of fans think, power level (ki) = directly proportional all abilities.
For Example, Goku's power level 30. And he's lifting strength is 5 tons.
He increased his power level to 300. And he must lifting 50 tons !?! Noo!
Dragon Ball series does not mention such a thing. He can't lift 50 tons in this example.

[TheMikado]

So question for you theorist. When does Goku ACTUALLY fight in his kaioken x2 form?

[Supaman]

No,
Kaioken allows an amplification of the Ki. Then, with the chance (control of this Ki), allows to multiply the combat force.
Goku distinguishes the Ki and what makes up the fighting force. The amplification of the Ki and its control allow, with luck, to multiply the combat force (or combat power if you prefer). This implies that increasing Ki alone is not enough to increase combat strength. Control is important.
- Toriyama, in an interview of 2009, specifies exactly the same thing.
"In a fight, the most important thing is the size of your ki and your control over it."
- Always Toriyama in an interview of 2013, (the one I had already put),
"There are physical limits to the strength of the body in itself, so in order to overcome this barrier, it is necessary to increase its" ki. "Normally, the more you increase your ki, the more difficult it is to Control, so control of the ki is also important. "
The more the ki reserve increases thanks to the Kaioken, the more Goku has trouble controlling it to increase his combat strength.

So the effect is probably degressive.

[TheGreatness25]

There was a point where I was reading the Viz translation and started piecing it together that maybe the "x2, x3, etc." referred to the Kaio-ken itself, not Goku's power. This was because the Kaio-ken itself doubled his power, but then with "x2" and so forth, it looked like he was doubling the Kai-ken itself, then tripling the Kaio-ken. This is how I saw it:

If Goku's power is 5, the Kaio-ken doubles it to 10. That's pretty simple. Then, the added multiplication to the Kaio-ken actually refers to the Kaio-ken, so if Kaio-ken (x1) is a 5 point increase, then Kaio-ken x2 should be 10, x3 should be 15, x4 should be 20, x5 should be 25, x6 should be 30, x7 should be 35, x8 should be 40, x9 should be 45, x10 should be 50. So a Kaio-ken x10 (if Goku is at 5) would put him at 55. So it essentially is multiplied by one more than the number given to the Kaio-ken.

Then when taking into consideration that later there are talks about the Kaio-ken x10 being 10 times Goku's power, I kind of did scrapped my idea, but it was a nice thought while it lasted.