How strong has Piccolo gotten over 3 years?

[Mireya]

Do you imagine he surpassed Freeza by a lot? I think there's conflicting evidences.

[Hugo Boss]

Which 3 years are you talking about? 3 years after Freeza was defeated?

[Mireya]

Which 3 years are you talking about? 3 years after Freeza was defeated?

Yes, the 3 years after Trunks killed Freeza and they fought 17/18/19/20, right before merging with Kami. Sorry for nor being clear.

[Lionel]

You can make a proximal estimation by looking at the reaction of #19 to fighting Goku and Vegeta when they were Super Saiyans. The android was proving to be no match for either Saiyan but I'm not sure if it could be said he and Gero are more comparable to Freeza. #19 was following their movements to an extent, even if he couldn't bring his body to defend itself in time.

Trunks was weaker than either of his adult peers yet he killed Freeza with a single slice of his sword. You could argue that it's a different typology of physical damage but we also see how Cold was unable to move or force his way out of Trunks' grasp when the Saiyan had hold of the sword. Cold is weaker by an indeterminate amount yet considered sufficient enough as back up in a potential fight against Goku. As you can see with #19 it seemed to take more effort for a much stronger SSJ Vegeta to force himself out of the android's grasp. Admittedly #19 was draining Vegeta of his energy throughout that period.

If Piccolo was strong enough to dominate the superior Gero then I think at a minimum he's stronger than the Mecha Freeza era Super Saiyans. I have him anywhere from 210 million to 240 million. For a comparison I consider SSJ Vegeta to be 300 million. Of course those are arbitrary projections on my part.

[Mireya]

You can make a proximal estimation by looking at the reaction of #19 to fighting Goku and Vegeta when they were Super Saiyans. The android was proving to be no match for either Saiyan but I'm not sure if it could be said he and Gero are more comparable to Freeza. #19 was following their movements to an extent, even if he couldn't bring his body to defend itself in time.

Trunks was weaker than either of his adult peers yet he killed Freeza with a single slice of his sword. You could argue that it's a different typology of physical damage but we also see how Cold was unable to move or force his way out of Trunks' grasp when the Saiyan had hold of the sword. Cold is weaker by an indeterminate amount yet considered sufficient enough as back up in a potential fight against Goku. As you can see with #19 it seemed to take more effort for a much stronger SSJ Vegeta to force himself out of the android's grasp. Admittedly #19 was draining Vegeta of his energy throughout that period.

If Piccolo was strong enough to dominate the superior Gero then I think at a minimum he's stronger than the Mecha Freeza era Super Saiyans. I have him anywhere from 210 million to 240 million. For a comparison I consider SSJ Vegeta to be 300 million. Of course those are arbitrary projections on my part.

This is good logic.

It's also worth noting that 19 budged Vegeta while this latter gave him the freebie considerably more than Cell against SSj2 Gohan... and if we apply the 2x boost for SSJ2, the gap between Gohan and Cell would be less than 2x, right? That'd put a cap on Vegeta's gap over 19... and since Gero is likely above 19 and was still defeated by Piccolo, this could leave Piccolo as considerably closer to Vegeta's 100% power than his half power. I'm not sure how tight the gap between 19 and Vegeta can be tho, it obviously there should be a very large one to accommodate the chain of Vegeta > Trunks > Piccolo > Gero > 19. Unless there's all a diminute 1.1x gap between each layer but that seems unlikely.

There's also the fact that sick Goku is pretty much implied to be above the showing of Goku 3 years earlier as per Ten's reactions... and yet he couldn't just trounce 19, considerably above though he was. And like you said, Trunks implied he could off Freeza instantly. And when 19 absorbed Goku's power, he greatly increased his powers, to the point Gero didn't seem too worried when Goku ate the senzu bean. And since Gero was already stronger than 19 from the get go and absorbed Vegeta's blast and Piccolo's suppressed energy, it could be assumed he's above 19 post. Also accounting for the fact that he was feeling kinda close to the point that taking everyone else's energies could leave him in a position to clash with Vegeta. So I think he reclaimed the status of above 19 upon absorbing those energies and Piccolo still outmanevered him, which could leave us with a chain of:


Piccolo > Gero (post absorptions) > 19 (post absorptions) ~ Sick Goku (initially) > SSj Goku (3 years earlier)

But what seems to throw a wrench into this is they all making a big case of Freeza being defeated later on, like "no shit you hadn't a chance, even the boy who defeated Freeza hadn't", more or less paraphrasing Kami's line. This seems a poor working or weird choice to bring up Freeza by Toriyama... much like they hyped up Tao Pai Pai in the 22nd Budokai despite the implications of even Chappa-o being way ahead him. Weird. What do you think?

[ZombieVito]

I have him stronger that the Trunks that kill Freeza but weaker than Yardrat Goku.

[Goku9001]

He's stronger than Sick Goku who surpassed Yardrat Goku by a large margin. If the Androids hadn't surpassed Yardrat Goku by a fair margin, then the Z Senshi including Piccolo would have been skeptical about the Androids' adherence to Trunks' rumors. A part of Trunks' rumors was that they were Androids that were monstrous compared to both him and Goku. For them to have not been skeptical initially means that the Androids should have surpassed Yardrat Goku.

[Lionel]

You can make a proximal estimation by looking at the reaction of #19 to fighting Goku and Vegeta when they were Super Saiyans. The android was proving to be no match for either Saiyan but I'm not sure if it could be said he and Gero are more comparable to Freeza. #19 was following their movements to an extent, even if he couldn't bring his body to defend itself in time.

Trunks was weaker than either of his adult peers yet he killed Freeza with a single slice of his sword. You could argue that it's a different typology of physical damage but we also see how Cold was unable to move or force his way out of Trunks' grasp when the Saiyan had hold of the sword. Cold is weaker by an indeterminate amount yet considered sufficient enough as back up in a potential fight against Goku. As you can see with #19 it seemed to take more effort for a much stronger SSJ Vegeta to force himself out of the android's grasp. Admittedly #19 was draining Vegeta of his energy throughout that period.

If Piccolo was strong enough to dominate the superior Gero then I think at a minimum he's stronger than the Mecha Freeza era Super Saiyans. I have him anywhere from 210 million to 240 million. For a comparison I consider SSJ Vegeta to be 300 million. Of course those are arbitrary projections on my part.

This is good logic.

It's also worth noting that 19 budged Vegeta while this latter gave him the freebie considerably more than Cell against SSj2 Gohan... and if we apply the 2x boost for SSJ2, the gap between Gohan and Cell would be less than 2x, right? That'd put a cap on Vegeta's gap over 19... and since Gero is likely above 19 and was still defeated by Piccolo, this could leave Piccolo as considerably closer to Vegeta's 100% power than his half power. I'm not sure how tight the gap between 19 and Vegeta can be tho, it obviously there should be a very large one to accommodate the chain of Vegeta > Trunks > Piccolo > Gero > 19. Unless there's all a diminute 1.1x gap between each layer but that seems unlikely.

There's also the fact that sick Goku is pretty much implied to be above the showing of Goku 3 years earlier as per Ten's reactions... and yet he couldn't just trounce 19, considerably above though he was. And like you said, Trunks implied he could off Freeza instantly. And when 19 absorbed Goku's power, he greatly increased his powers, to the point Gero didn't seem too worried when Goku ate the senzu bean. And since Gero was already stronger than 19 from the get go and absorbed Vegeta's blast and Piccolo's suppressed energy, it could be assumed he's above 19 post. Also accounting for the fact that he was feeling kinda close to the point that taking everyone else's energies could leave him in a position to clash with Vegeta. So I think he reclaimed the status of above 19 upon absorbing those energies and Piccolo still outmanevered him, which could leave us with a chain of:


Piccolo > Gero (post absorptions) > 19 (post absorptions) ~ Sick Goku (initially) > SSj Goku (3 years earlier)

But what seems to throw a wrench into this is they all making a big case of Freeza being defeated later on, like "no shit you hadn't a chance, even the boy who defeated Freeza hadn't", more or less paraphrasing Kami's line. This seems a poor working or weird choice to bring up Freeza by Toriyama... much like they hyped up Tao Pai Pai in the 22nd Budokai despite the implications of even Chappa-o being way ahead him. Weird. What do you think?

Good points all around. Outdated or not, Freeza is still a trend setter in the minds of most of the characters, I think. The man has been a galaxy spanning tyrant for who knows how many decades that profoundly impacted the lives of Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo (to an extent). Reputation may have been a component in their using Freeza as a measuring stick. Otherwise since Shin, for instance, read Vegeta's mind why not cite someone else who is more impressive like the cyborgs/androids (technically both types were in the manga) or perhaps a version of Cell? You can find a similar attitude with King Kai who had shown himself to be terrified of Freeza yet when it came to Cell, even after having been apprised of the artificial monster's strength, didn't react nearly as badly.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Definitely Super Saiyan level as Kuririn claims. He also says he’s confident on fighting the androids, so it seems he’s surpassed Trunks greatly by this point. There’s a ceiling though since he does refuse to fight 19 and 20 at once, but their absorbing powers might have been the reason. All in all I think it’s safe to say he’s above the Super Saiyans from 3 years ago, but nothing gigantic like 2x stronger.

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo outright says he thinks he can defeat the Androids from the get-go. Yardrat Goku had no chance of defeating the Androids.

Sick Goku is suggested to be on a whole other level than Yardrat Goku. Piccolo is beyond Sick Goku by a hefty margin.

[BWri]

I have him stronger that the Trunks that kill Freeza but weaker than Yardrat Goku.

Stronger than Trunks from 3 years prior for sure. That was the measuring stick he needed to pass to stand a chance against the androids. He wouldn't have showed up to the fight if he couldn't clear that.

I'm not sure how he compares to Yardrat Goku. Yardrat Goku is a beast. I didn't used to think he was that much stronger than he was on Namek, but Super has helped recontextualize just how much stronger Yardratian training may have made him. So depending on how strong you think he is (I now think he's really strong) I can see Piccolo being somewhere between Trunks and Yardrat Goku.

A good question is, how strong do you think everyone is compared to the Future Androids? Do you think early android arc SSJ Vegeta could take Future #17 for instance?

He's stronger than Sick Goku who surpassed Yardrat Goku by a large margin. If the Androids hadn't surpassed Yardrat Goku by a fair margin, then the Z Senshi including Piccolo would have been skeptical about the Androids' adherence to Trunks' rumors. A part of Trunks' rumors was that they were Androids that were monstrous compared to both him and Goku. For them to have not been skeptical initially means that the Androids should have surpassed Yardrat Goku.

Hmmm, this is a good point though. Yardrat Goku's power kind of confuses me at this point, as does Goku's gains over the 3 years in general. Sometimes it seems he didn't gain much, but the story implies that everyone got much stronger. They would have had to, to believe they stand a chance against the androids Trunks describes.

If Piccolo did surpass Yardrat Goku, I don't think it was by much.

[ZombieVito]

Stronger than Trunks from 3 years prior for sure. That was the measuring stick he needed to pass to stand a chance against the androids. He wouldn't have showed up to the fight if he couldn't clear that.

I'm not sure how he compares to Yardrat Goku. Yardrat Goku is a beast. I didn't used to think he was that much stronger than he was on Namek, but Super has helped recontextualize just how much stronger Yardratian training may have made him. So depending on how strong you think he is (I now think he's really strong) I can see Piccolo being somewhere between Trunks and Yardrat Goku.

A good question is, how strong do you think everyone is compared to the Future Androids? Do you think early android arc SSJ Vegeta could take Future #17 for instance?

Why would Goku get much stronger in Yardrat? He already trained his spirit with Kaio (And sort of with Kami) and used all that time he had there learning the IT.

I still have Vegeta weaker than Future 17 and 18. He wouldn't be as embarrassed as he was with the present counterparts though.

[Goku9001]

It's a given that Yardrat Goku was much stronger considering how Trunks can one-shot Frieza.

[ZombieVito]

Trunks never one shotted a full powered Freeza and no, just because Trunks told him to power up and was confident doesn't mean he would have one shotted him.

[BWri]

Yeah, the story initially implied that Goku got a significant boost while on Yardrat. It could've simply been a zenkai boost, but for him to go from stronger than yet competitive with Frieza to well above the guy who could no-sell and one-shot Frieza.

Trunks never one shotted a full powered Freeza and no, just because Trunks told him to power up and was confident doesn't mean he would have one shotted him.

Well, he took Frieza's offense with no difficulty or damage, then finished him off in one stroke. The extra slashes and ki blast was just a flourish, really.

[Goku9001]

Trunks never one shotted a full powered Freeza and no, just because Trunks told him to power up and was confident doesn't mean he would have one shotted him.

Goku was shocked that the man that could one-shot Frieza was completely helpless against the Androids. The statement serves as a means to establish how more powerful the Androids are compared to Frieza, so it absolutely does mean that Trunks can one-shot Frieza. Goku wouldn't be impressed if Trunks killed Frieza illegitimately as you are insinuating.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Here, Trunks talks about how he could eliminate Frieza in a single blow with the strikes he initiated on Goku. Goku doesn't disagree. He merely claims that Trunks wasn't serious and Goku should have a firm grasp on Trunks' power at this point.

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater… This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”

King Cold is impressed he could wipe out Frieza in an instant and claims that he's the strongest. He attempts to recruit Trunks just as Frieza does with Goku because Goku was much stronger than his peers. Keep in mind that Cold only attributes Trunks' victory to his sword rather than Frieza holding back which would be relevant if that were the case. The only implication we have is that Trunks wasn't serious against Frieza, not that Frieza wasn't serious against Trunks.

Chapter: 332 (DBZ 138), P6.1-2
Context: after Trunks kills Freeza
Cold: “My, you are capable, aren’t you? Marvelous, truly more than I imagined…To think that you could wipe my son Freeza out in that instant… How about it? Will you take Freeza’s place and become my child? Certainly you, the strongest in the universe, are qualified to join my clan.”

And then we have Kami and Tenshinhan both reaffirming that Trunks could eliminate Frieza in a single blow.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “ Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, the story initially implied that Goku got a significant boost while on Yardrat. It could've simply been a zenkai boost, but for him to go from stronger than yet competitive with Frieza to well above the guy who could no-sell and one-shot Frieza.

Trunks never one shotted a full powered Freeza and no, just because Trunks told him to power up and was confident doesn't mean he would have one shotted him.

Well, he took Frieza's offense with no difficulty or damage, then finished him off in one stroke. The extra slashes and ki blast was just a flourish, really.

Freeza just did a generic Ki beam at him.

Thinking Trunks would one shot a full power Freeza is just headcanon. It never happened so we don't know if he can or not.

[FeatsofPower]

Yeah, the story initially implied that Goku got a significant boost while on Yardrat. It could've simply been a zenkai boost, but for him to go from stronger than yet competitive with Frieza to well above the guy who could no-sell and one-shot Frieza.

Trunks never one shotted a full powered Freeza and no, just because Trunks told him to power up and was confident doesn't mean he would have one shotted him.

Well, he took Frieza's offense with no difficulty or damage, then finished him off in one stroke. The extra slashes and ki blast was just a flourish, really.

Freeza just did a generic Ki beam at him.

Thinking Trunks would one shot a full power Freeza is just headcanon. It never happened so we don't know if he can or not.

It's not, we literally have evidence from Trunks that FP Freeza is nothing to Trunks. Trunks tells him to come at full power and that he'd defeat Freeza in an instant. It's clear as day.

[Goku9001]

Yeah, the story initially implied that Goku got a significant boost while on Yardrat. It could've simply been a zenkai boost, but for him to go from stronger than yet competitive with Frieza to well above the guy who could no-sell and one-shot Frieza.

Trunks never one shotted a full powered Freeza and no, just because Trunks told him to power up and was confident doesn't mean he would have one shotted him.

Well, he took Frieza's offense with no difficulty or damage, then finished him off in one stroke. The extra slashes and ki blast was just a flourish, really.

Freeza just did a generic Ki beam at him.

Thinking Trunks would one shot a full power Freeza is just headcanon. It never happened so we don't know if he can or not.

And yet everyone treats it as if he did kill Frieza at full force. You are going against the narrative here.

[Mireya]

Yeah no one seems to point out how Freeza's suppression affected the battle.