Toyotarou Is creatively bankrupt

[Seekeroftruth]

https://youtu.be/fhw30dtimmI

The video below is a video summary of the moro arc and in it, Carthu's dojo was able to point out that Toyotarou heavily stole plot points and idea's accross the cell saga, saiyan saga and buu saga. With 60% being stolen from the cell saga and 20% from the buu saga and saiyan saga. Some examples include, android absorption, hyperbolic time chamber training, Goku giving Moros a senzu bean, Moros gaining power similar to UI mastere goku. It seems that while Toyotarou has Toriyama's skill as an artist he lacks his creativity and rather rehash the same stories over and over with minor tweaks.

[VegettoEX]

I'm not particularly interested in what some other random person has to say. What do you think about it the arc? What did you like and what did you NOT like? You're the one starting the conversation, here -- not whoever this "Carthu's Dojo" you've linked is!

The Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc has been my favorite arc of the entire run of Super thus far, manga/anime/movie-wise. I enjoyed the actual characters themselves, their designs, their dialogue with each other, their interactions with and playing off each other, etc. etc. etc. It was a joy the whole way through, and I've enjoyed it on each subsequent re-read.

I think reducing it to a small list of tangentially-relevant distillations does a (disingenuous) disservice to the actual craft and execution therein. I could say DBZ movie 4 is just Demon King Piccolo again, sure, and yes I think that, but that's not an actual critique; that's a drive-by statement.

[Seekeroftruth]

I'm not particularly interested in what some other random person has to say. What do you think about it the arc? What did you like and what did you NOT like? You're the one starting the conversation, here -- not whoever this "Carthu's Dojo" you've linked is!

The Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc has been my favorite arc of the entire run of Super thus far, manga/anime/movie-wise. I enjoyed the actual characters themselves, their designs, their dialogue with each other, their interactions with and playing off each other, etc. etc. etc. It was a joy the whole way through, and I've enjoyed it on each subsequent re-read.

I think reducing it to a small list of tangentially-relevant distillations does a (disingenuous) disservice to the actual craft and execution therein. I could say DBZ movie 4 is just Demon King Piccolo again, sure, and yes I think that, but that's not an actual critique; that's a drive-by statement.

Honestly, the starting of the arc kind of felt a bit boring to me. The whole galactic patrol and having to retrieve escaped prisoners felt a bit tedious and underwhelming given what we saw in the previous arc. I also found Goku still having difficulty in using UI kind of like a plot base handicap so he couldn't squash the upcoming threat in an instant. I have to agree with the youtuber as throughout the entire arc I could very easily see too much nostalgia callbacks to sagas that Toriyama did in the original Dragon Ball. From Moro going to Namek to collect the dragon balls with the aid of a frieza soldier to the z-senshi needing to defend earth from a bunch of criminals but ultimately get overwhelmed and Son Goku needing to race to their location to save them in time. Even though the subsequent granola arc dragged on for too long, I found more original ideas in that saga than what I saw in the Moro arc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This whole franchise is, man.

I think the Moro Saga was at least an interesting melting pot of all the tropes and fanservices in the series. It’s far more creative than straight up recycling old villains (RoF, Broly, Super Hero) or run of the mill tournaments (U6, ToP).

[SupremeKai25]

This whole franchise is, man.

I think the Moro Saga was at least an interesting melting pot of all the tropes and fanservices in the series. It’s far more creative than straight up recycling old villains (RoF, Broly, Super Hero) or run of the mill tournaments (U6, ToP).

ToP arc is very underrated and original. A battle royale between 80 fighters? That is original. A new form that doesn't rely on brute strength, but on technique and finesse? That is original.

And obviously Future Trunks saga was incredible original, giving us a never-seen-before villain in Dragon Ball with a unique origin and original motivations.

[VegettoEX]

What's originality if it's not interesting, though? I was bored to tears week in and week out with the Tournament of Power. It was structured absolutely episodically terribly and filled with characters I never had a chance to know or care about.

I can't fathom ever re-watching that arc (or most of the Super TV series for that matter), but I've re-read the Moro stuff multiple times and had a fantastic time taking something new away with each re-read.

(And hey, DBZ movie 9 did a battle royale first!)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This whole franchise is, man.

I think the Moro Saga was at least an interesting melting pot of all the tropes and fanservices in the series. It’s far more creative than straight up recycling old villains (RoF, Broly, Super Hero) or run of the mill tournaments (U6, ToP).

ToP arc is very underrated and original. A battle royale between 80 fighters? That is original. A new form that doesn't rely on brute strength, but on technique and finesse? That is original.

And obviously Future Trunks saga was incredible original, giving us a never-seen-before villain in Dragon Ball with a unique origin and original motivations.

ToP is 50/50 for me. Lots of new characters, that’s creative. They remix some stuff from the early series, but to good effect. UI tries to return to the roots, but it ends up being another recolor power up. Guess my problem is the execution, not the ideas.

Agreed on the Future Trunks Saga. Probably the creative peak of the series.

What's originality if it's not interesting, though? I was bored to tears week in and week out with the Tournament of Power. It was structured absolutely episodically terribly and filled with characters I never had a chance to know or care about.

I can't fathom ever re-watching that arc (or most of the Super TV series for that matter), but I've re-read the Moro stuff multiple times and had a fantastic time taking something new away with each re-read.

(And hey, DBZ movie 9 did a battle royale first!)

This is a very important point. Being interesting and being original are very different. Dragon Ball wasn’t even that original when it started as a Journey to the West parody.

The ToP was basically making a bunch of new characters and letting them duke it out. It’s a lot of fun, and looking at the episode list each episode always had something new to the table. They did forget Vegeta exists most of the saga, and some events could’ve been shuffled (U4 lasts more than U6? Really?), but for me it never gets boring like, say, the movie episodes do.

That Bojack tournament was so cool. No wonder it was my favorite DBZ movie growing up. They even got Yamcha in it.

[ChronoTwigger]

When I was young, people said "If TV told it, it should be true". Now it's YT that get the implicit authority, while most of YTubers are kids with just average degree of criticism (not speaking the *need* for visibility the platform incite, so it's hard to find honest content). So, I don't think random-guy-shouting own any authority and I can disassemble his considerations.

It's more like the franchise is caged inside his own tropes.
Dragon Ball writing follow some guideline. You need for each arc to show up a given set of features, each one must escalate a bit, Goku and Vegeta must act according a recognizable pattern... You cannot come with too much or you'll risk to lose track and audience.
On a given sense, the entirety of Super is a pastiche of old contexts. You can find a lot of similitudes, and the more in future instances. It's Goku bashing strange people *and* by a given narrative fomula.
They are also japanese, and japanese work on top of KAIZEN principle, "repeat and do better", the latter in the sense of technology and optimization. If something work, repeat it with a better technology.
In the end, as DB reach his goals, there's no reason to change it dramatically. Only to draw it better, aimate it better, show more stuff in panels.

The bankrupt came instead with Granolah, a sequence of fighting panels against no one, for no reason, no profluence, no logic in the escalation, no logic into power ups, no logic in the ending. To me, they simply filled up a creative void with random stuff out of an hat of casual "shocking facts".

Writing Dragon Ball at this stage is *very difficult*: you must keep some mood, some given trope, and the same deliver some thrills that "feel like DB". Moro did it, and while a bit contrived at least they tried. Granolah was a writing failure. You can't do worst and as an editor I'll never publish something so *bad*. Even if tagged as DB.
Granolah surely is more "original", but you cannot chew original garbage, while you can taste the same coffee everyday.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Your implying that Toyotarou had any creativity too begin with.

[The Monkey King]

Toyotarou took clear inspiration from red-eyed avenger, last of my clan anime characters like Sasuke and Kurapika to make Granolah and still managed to make an insanely boring character who got sidelined in his own arc.

The most compelling character Toyotarou has written is Merus.

[ZombieVito]

This whole franchise is, man.

I have to disagree. At least with the anime. Zamasu and the ToP are legit 2 of my favorite arcs in the entire franchise. The former is probably the most creative the series has been in decades and the latter is simply a lot of fun. U6 tournament is a bit hit or miss but it did gave me one of my favorite Piccolo fights and Kaioken was hype.

Even the movie retellings have something I liked like the extended Beerus vs Goku fight and the return of Ginyu. The 2 Super movies have been incredible.

Moro arc is just the biggest hits remixed into an arc and I have no idea what the hell the Granolah arc was.

[LightBing]

I have my qualms about Toyotarõ's work, specially lately.
However we really need to put ourselves in his shoes and think how constricted he must be.

You must write within the 10 year gap; you must not conflict with other mediums; you must listen to Editors, you must listen to Toriyama; you must! You must!!!
Then you add the documented respect that makes him even be anxious about creating new plot points and characters.
Then perhaps some corporate crap or social pressure from ancient Japan or whatever.

What can he actually do? The current arc is what he can do.

Toyotarõ is more likely a victim than a culprit.

[Alkiser]

This whole franchise is, man.

I have to disagree. At least with the anime. Zamasu and the ToP are legit 2 of my favorite arcs in the entire franchise. The former is probably the most creative the series has been in decades and the latter is simply a lot of fun. U6 tournament is a bit hit or miss but it did gave me one of my favorite Piccolo fights and Kaioken was hype.

Even the movie retellings have something I liked like the extended Beerus vs Goku fight and the return of Ginyu. The 2 Super movies have been incredible.

Moro arc is just the biggest hits remixed into an arc and I have no idea what the hell the Granolah arc was.

Granolah Arc tells a story of revenge, guilt, and achieving a goal at the cost of one's self.
You're welcome

[kemuri07]

What's originality if it's not interesting, though? I was bored to tears week in and week out with the Tournament of Power. It was structured absolutely episodically terribly and filled with characters I never had a chance to know or care about.

I can't fathom ever re-watching that arc (or most of the Super TV series for that matter), but I've re-read the Moro stuff multiple times and had a fantastic time taking something new away with each re-read.

(And hey, DBZ movie 9 did a battle royale first!)

I found the Tournament of Power absolutely a chore to sit through, made worse when we were essentially just waiting for Goku to turn Ultra Instinct because that was the only compelling thing about that arc. I think people choose to "forget" the often poorly animated episodes in between the cool sakuga; some of the most poorly paced stuff that gives the DBZ a run for its money.

The manga thankfully makes choices that makes the arc much leaner, and the reasoning for Goku turning Ultra Instinct is much more satisfying in the manga than it is in the anime. Cool sakuga is nothing more than flashy lights if there isn't a solid narrative structure behind it.

WITH THAT SAID...yeah, DBS as a whole (regardless of which version you watch) is creatively bankrupt. It's easier to blame Toyotaro for the faults of the franchise because it gives people a person to blame, when the reality is that DBS never had a chance to begin with.

[YamiGoku]

I personally liked the TOP anime arc, it wasnt perfect like no arc on super is, but it had a lot of hype moments, People use "It broke the internet" every time they can, on numeros videos of different animes on youtube, but the only time I saw an anime actually breaking the internet was Dragon Ball TOP Arc, It broke numeros streaming sites and everyone was talking about it, the last episode was playing on big screens for multitudes of people across sudamerica, people were screaming cheering for Goku and Co fighting Jiren.

That means everyone should like it? no, but It must have done something right for all of that to happen.


About Toyotaro, I think he has a serious problem with the middle part of every story he tells, He can make a story start with an interesting plot and a fresh feeling like he did in the Moro and Granola arc, and he can finish an arc pretty decently, but he cant for the love of god keep the pacing in the midle of the story, or make the plot interesting from start to finish

The Moro and Granola might be good to experience now that are finish(IDK I just read them when they came out), but I remember everyone was complaining about how they wanted the arc (both Moro and Granola) to end, I think Toyotaro doesn't take account that he's working on a monthly manga, and chapters with no plot progression, just fighting or just a not so hype, can make the manga feel like a chore, because you just waited a whole moth just to end with little or no accomplishment, and to make it worse, some times they were multiple chapters like that so the feeling was even worse.

[Vegard Aune]

I found the Tournament of Power absolutely a chore to sit through, made worse when we were essentially just waiting for Goku to turn Ultra Instinct because that was the only compelling thing about that arc. I think people choose to "forget" the often poorly animated episodes in between the cool sakuga; some of the most poorly paced stuff that gives the DBZ a run for its money.

The manga thankfully makes choices that makes the arc much leaner, and the reasoning for Goku turning Ultra Instinct is much more satisfying in the manga than it is in the anime. Cool sakuga is nothing more than flashy lights if there isn't a solid narrative structure behind it.

WITH THAT SAID...yeah, DBS as a whole (regardless of which version you watch) is creatively bankrupt. It's easier to blame Toyotaro for the faults of the franchise because it gives people a person to blame, when the reality is that DBS never had a chance to begin with.

I mean, yeah, the manga's version of the Universe Survival arc is certainly more to-the-point... But it also is rushed to the extreme. I have to wonder if Toyotaro or someone higher-up felt that the Future Trunks arc (probably the only arc shared between the manga and anime where it feels like Toyotaro took his time) went on for too long and decided to step it up with the Universe Survival arc... or if the decision was made to speed it up just so that the manga would be able to deliver something actually new rather than a slightly different take on what we had already seen. But whatever the case, whereas the Universe Survival arc in the anime was twice as long as any other arcs preceding it, in the manga it's roughly the same length as Future Trunks despite cramming so many more characters and moments into it. And it shows; Kale eliminating like half the field in the span of a single chapter, then Kafla going from introduction to being knocked out by Gohan in the span of fourteen pages stuck out to me as rather egregious moments of Toyotaro just hitting notes as fast as possible. Not to mention Ultra Instinct Omen being around for a grand total of six pages before fizzling out (and doing nothing in that time aside from dodging Jiren once). Did the anime's take on the tournament have its own truckload of flaws? Absolutely. But at least it had some genuinely thrilling highlights, including a really good final episode, whereas the manga is just... cliff notes, basically.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I really don't understand how anyone could find the ToP boring. Every episode was a different fight with different characters. This sure isn't the Dark Star DBs Saga we're talking about.

I have to disagree. At least with the anime. Zamasu and the ToP are legit 2 of my favorite arcs in the entire franchise. The former is probably the most creative the series has been in decades and the latter is simply a lot of fun. U6 tournament is a bit hit or miss but it did gave me one of my favorite Piccolo fights and Kaioken was hype.

Even the movie retellings have something I liked like the extended Beerus vs Goku fight and the return of Ginyu. The 2 Super movies have been incredible.

Moro arc is just the biggest hits remixed into an arc and I have no idea what the hell the Granolah arc was.

Creative: BoGs, FT and ToP. The plot of the ToP isn't very original (Another tournament), but coming up with that many original characters is massive even if half of them were extras.

Not creative: RoF (Freeza reharsh), U6 (Tournament and Hit is the only interesting character), Broly, Moro, Granolah (A couple interesting ideas but done in the laziest way possible) and Super Hero.

[ZombieVito]

I really don't understand how anyone could find the ToP boring. Every episode was a different fight with different characters. This sure isn't the Dark Star DBs Saga we're talking about.

I have to disagree. At least with the anime. Zamasu and the ToP are legit 2 of my favorite arcs in the entire franchise. The former is probably the most creative the series has been in decades and the latter is simply a lot of fun. U6 tournament is a bit hit or miss but it did gave me one of my favorite Piccolo fights and Kaioken was hype.

Even the movie retellings have something I liked like the extended Beerus vs Goku fight and the return of Ginyu. The 2 Super movies have been incredible.

Moro arc is just the biggest hits remixed into an arc and I have no idea what the hell the Granolah arc was.

Creative: BoGs, FT and ToP. The plot of the ToP isn't very original (Another tournament), but coming up with that many original characters is massive even if half of them were extras.

Not creative: RoF (Freeza reharsh), U6 (Tournament and Hit is the only interesting character), Broly, Moro, Granolah (A couple interesting ideas but done in the laziest way possible) and Super Hero.

Well the ToP might be another tournament but it's different from any other we had. That's what creative about it. I feel like 80% of the new characters were given something in the anime while I don't even think 10% got anything in the manga. Just look how dirty they did the U6 Namekians there.

Same with the ToP, the U6 tournament was a new format but where it failed was that it pretty much boiled down to Goku and Vegeta being the only ones that mattered. Boo should have fought and Piccolo should have taken the win against Frost and fought Magetta.

I can't really hate on on Broly and Super Hero since it fixed my most hated character [Broly] and gave one of my favorite characters [Piccolo] the shine I was waiting for over 2 decades.

[Grimlock]

Alright... Time to go in-depth as to why tournaments are boring.

I really don't understand how anyone could find the ToP boring.

By virtue of being a tournament, it is devoid of anything resembling a "plot", or "story". The viewer is expected to sit through a bunch of episodes that will not lead anywhere, literally, metaphorically and story-wise. The viewer, if they know better, know that because this is Dragon Ball, we are going to be back in square one by the end of it, and that's exactly what happens. We are stuck looking at the same dark background/environment that just does not help. If the goal was to invoke a sense of "danger", "dark times", something "ominous", then they failed. Looking at the Universe, like in the Universe 6 saga, is much better than looking at a dark, generic background for countless episodes.

The characters involved are not that interesting or fleshed out. This is a problem that ties to what I said before. Dragon Ball handles the Multiverse in a different way, one that I would say it would be very idiotic if the intention was to "subvert expectations" in regards to how the West handles it, but Toriyama actually came up with a little thing that, in theory, it should have been great and worked wonders: the idea that the Universes have "twins". This opens up a multitude of opportunities and potential for great storylines. We could see beings and their most varied counterparts. Universe 6 and Universe 7 share the same races, so there are Earthlings, Saiyans, Namekuseijins, probably Tsufurujins, Yadorats... But what about the other Universes? What do they have that make them stand out? Does one of the Universe contain a race made up of water and its "twin Universe" have a race made up of fire? Does one Universe contain Cybertron and its "twin Universe" their organic counterparts? If they are supposed to be "twin Universes", why are Universes 6 and 7 the only ones sharing common races? If all those new characters came from Universe 7, we wouldn't be missing anything, they feel more like aliens that could be neighbors to Earth instead of beings from other Universes that have similar variants. They dropped the ball on the very and only notion that made the Multiverse in Dragon Ball to feel authentic and interesting. So regardless of the initial intention, it did end up being pretty idiotic the way the series handles it. They were better off just imitating the way the West handles it at the end of the day.

I couldn't care less about the new characters. Nearly all of the designs were pretty forgettable, off the top of my head right now, I can't remember a single character (and their names, for that matter) that stand out visually. They are all underdeveloped and have no backstories for the viewer to feel minimally attached to them (and the "big bad" that manages to get one is also generic. His master was killed? Oh, poor guy... Not). I don't remember any of them displaying a new cool technique or something, except maybe for that one female character that shoots heart-shaped ki. And I only remember that because it ended up being a fitting and cute technique for my Time Patroller character in Xenoverse 2, I can't tell if that's a compliment or not. Though, it is an unusual technique for Dragon Ball, so I'll give it some credits. Especially considering the series hungers for more creativity in this aspect as well.

For a "battle royale", from what I saw, it felt very "tamed" and organized. Characters were fighting against each other without hitting someone else, how is that even possible? Especially in the beginning when everyone was there overcrowding the ring? If that's supposed to be a "battle royale" then goddamn...

So all in all, we are stuck with the very same setting, with the very same background and with very same characters. And for how long? Well, according to Kanzenshuu, for sixty damned and long weeks! No wonder everything about it is boring! It's sixty weeks of non-progression, endless battles that we know everything is going to be fine, and that we are going to go back to square one at the end of it. It's insane! I have to question the sanity of those who liked this. Are you okay!? Are you sure you don't need medical attention!?

All of this is made worse when you remember this tournament came almost after another one! There was a "break" lasting half a year in the middle of it, but it was still not enough. The fatigue was still there. So if we take into consideration the Universe 6 saga, we can add twenty more weeks, for a total of eighty nearly consecutive weeks of tournaments! I am getting crazy just by realizing and pointing this out right now that this is the situation Dragon Ball Super "gifted" us. They brought Dragon Ball back to the TV after eighteen years majorly to give us eighty weeks of the same nonsense. I'm definitely not okay after realizing this. send help!

And then there's the manga, doing the exact same thing concurrently. Here's the time it took for both tournaments to be completed. We had nowhere to run to for new stuff. Well, at that time I had Xenoverse 2, but I still wanted new things from the series as well, not for it to waste time with more and more tournaments. I also have to ask how we survived those years. It blatantly shows the bankruptcy this franchise still suffers from to this day.

Tournaments are a hindrance to the "story" itself and to those that mainly want it to move forward. They are an annoying and enduring obstacle/wall that should never take too long to overcome for us to see what's behind them, to see what's next. Any contrivance that prevents a more important aspect from doing its job at this day and age is a major issue. And it is like I always say, we are not in the 1980s and 1990s anymore. What worked in the past may not work anymore. I'm not saying we should get rid of tournaments completely (although they wouldn't be missed by me), do it, but only once in a while, and not twice in a row! Especially in a series that only presents three sagas (five, if you count the retellings... another problem of the series). Two of the three sagas are tournaments. It's bad. I'm sorry, it's just bad. No matter how one wants to slice this. Maybe it wouldn't be this bad if they had continued for at least one more saga, if Dragon Ball Super Broly was made for the anime before the series concluded, but as it is? No. It's unacceptable.

Oh but it introduced Ultra Instinct!

Yeah, well... Ultra Instinct could very well be introduced in Future Trunks saga. We really didn't need a whole tournament for yet another Saiyan transformation. Get rid of that Super Saiyan Rage that amounted to nothing, and replace it with Ultra Instinct instead.

What's originality if it's not interesting, though? I was bored to tears week in and week out with the Tournament of Power. It was structured absolutely episodically terribly and filled with characters I never had a chance to know or care about.

I imagine it must be a nightmare having to revisit every single episode for documentation on the website and the wiki, isn't? If it is, may Dende grant you all the strength and patience you need. Because I know I wouldn't have them.

[Vegard Aune]

So all in all, we are stuck with the very same setting, with the very same background and with very same characters. And for how long? Well, according to Kanzenshuu, for sixty damned and long weeks! No wonder everything about it is boring! It's sixty weeks of non-progression, endless battles that we know everything is going to be fine, and that we are going to go back to square one at the end of it. It's insane! I have to question the sanity of those who liked this. Are you okay!? Are you sure you don't need medical attention!?

The arc as a whole was 60 episodes. The actual tournament was 33. Which is still a lot of time spent in the same setting with the same background and the same largely inconsequential characters, sure, but it's barely over half of what you just characterized it as.