Kanzenshuu

I'm all aboard Toriyama's train of thought there. Rematches aren't necessary, and Toriyama himself is far more interested in using the next character/antagonist/villain as the ever-moving goalpost. He actually keeps taking them FURTHER away from us! I think that's quaint, neat, and quintissential D...

Power level crunch aside, is there any reason to think Cell is close to Gohan? He was dominating a <50% Gohan, but then got pulverized by 100% Gohan. There's a lot of room here. Going by the Boo Saga, Gohan is respectable and Cell isn't.

The RoF one is so conclusive you wouldn't even think of it without reading this direction cue on the obscure, hard to find script.

I think he only checked the timelines that generated time rings. Aren't they the only ones that deviate from the rest of the timestream?

Well, they were all tired and Gohan needed a senzu afterwards. If he can wipe out the whole army, then he probably could beat Shisami too if he wasn’t so tired.

I don’t think the stuff about the mercenaries counts though. They were excluded from the movie.

Yeah Freeza flat out said everyone was holding back, but the way he says it sounds like Gohan is the only one who could kill the 1 million soldiers at once. If Gohan himself wasn’t sure he could go SSJ, how could Freeza now? Similarly, Goku wasn’t sure if he could pull off KKx20, and thus Freeza did...

Looking back, Roshi teaching Goku the basics again makes a lot of sense. Toyotaro foreshadowed Goku’s character regress in Super Hero.

But we are shown base Gohan can't do that. That he can’t wipe out the whole army? When? Base Gohan is given more attention than Piccolo. In the script from Toriyama Gohan is referred as the strongest... In the anime, Gohan fights Piccolo to a draw. There's no denying Gohan was portrayed high in com...

Didn't RoF Gohan turn SS to fight that guy Piccolo was struggling with? how come that implies he is superior than him in base? or are you guys talking about some other situation? The script’s description of the big battle with the soldieds says “Gohan is the strongest. Piccolo is strong too” and ke...

Didn't RoF Gohan turn SS to fight that guy Piccolo was struggling with? how come that implies he is superior than him in base? or are you guys talking about some other situation? The script’s description of the big battle with the soldieds says “Gohan is the strongest. Piccolo is strong too” and ke...

The most accurate chain to me is: Shin >> Piccolo >> base Saiyans >> androids 17 and 18 >> Freeza The BoG line is evened out with RoF in which Gohan is heavily implied as Piccolo's superior in base, a Gohan who hadn't been training and hadn't Ultimate anymore. In the manga, we have the kids throwin...

Kaioshin says he thinks Goku is stronger than himself when they meet, and pretty much says he can’t beat Babidi and co. without him. This is before Dabra even shows up. I don’t think Pui Pui has to be stronger than Kaioshin since Kaioshin didn’t even know who he was. Pui Pui is probably stronger, b...

Kaioshin says he thinks Goku is stronger than himself when they meet, and pretty much says he can’t beat Babidi and co. without him. This is before Dabra even shows up. I don’t think Pui Pui has to be stronger than Kaioshin since Kaioshin didn’t even know who he was. Pui Pui is probably stronger, bu...

I think people are getting mixed up between the movie and the manga. Jiren is still stronger in the movie, in the manga Vegeta just says they lost in the past. I think the way I had it before makes the most sense. Hakai powered Beerus > Freeza > Goku > Jiren > "Base" Beerus. Beerus pretty ...

Yes, making characters relevant is terrible writing. Manga Cabba is much better because he’s Raditz level, your true average Saiyan. Actually weaker, Raditz was an elite.

Was it ever made clear where Base Goku's strength was meant to be in Super in the end of not? Are we still meant to believe that Base Cabba, Base Caulifla and basically anyone above that is still well above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or what? In the manga, before training with Merus, Goku is at most co...

If Toppo is saying Jiren surpasses Belmond in power level, then we’re back to step one.

Yeah I think the original intention was Broly > Beerus, but Toriyama left the line ambiguous in case they changed their minds.

I’m starting to think Jiren is just plain weaker than Belmond in raw power. Toppo says Jiren is stronger “in terms of combat skill alone”.

I think I agree with Mr Baggins , though it's very confusing how Broly might be stronger than Beerus but Freeza is definitely below Beerus. Handwaving stuff like Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in the Granolah Saga is also tough, I guess Broly doesn't count because he can't transform at will, as...

Honestly, it’s better to just ignore Broly. He never even does anything! Write him out and what do you lose? Nothing. Toriyama probably has no idea what to make of him. I want to agree that Broly was totally being ignored in the Moro and Granolah Sagas, Toyotaro either wasn’t allowed to use Broly or...