Kanzenshuu

I think people are getting mixed up between the movie and the manga. Jiren is still stronger in the movie, in the manga Vegeta just says they lost in the past. I think the way I had it before makes the most sense.

Hakai powered Beerus > Freeza > Goku > Jiren > "Base" Beerus.

Beerus pretty much ...

The image you linked is translated differently from what the official site says: “Even more shocking is that Jiren managed to dominate both Goku and Hit while holding back his true power to conserve his stamina!”.

This is exactly the quirk that Vegeta is talking about, but after Goku starts ...

I'm saying, training their body is just them training to get stronger anyway.

They have been training physically their entire lives. Weight Training, Gravity training, Sparring, shadow boxing. These are all methods of strengthening the body.

"Whats the difference"

"We need to train more ...

Essentially, this statement means Goku and Vegeta have trained themselves to a point where Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza and slightly above them right now.

It doesn't make sense to say this is referring to their physical body alone, since Goku already had a better Physical body than Moro ...

I’m not sure what you mean by past~present tense, but I’m talking about what Vegeta says in the manga. In the movie, Vegeta says Jiren wasn’t much stronger than them, but used his power more efficiently. In the manga, Vegeta says he and Goku are physically on par with all their recent foes ...

This essay is a letter to Jiren fans, but ultimately one of its fundamentals is the data that Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas, Freeza, Goku and Vegeta have the same physical strength and perform differently only because of the way they wield their power, which in my perspective doesn’t make sense at this ...

Maybe Vegeta is referring to everyone currently as of Age 782-783 which is SH. So at THAT point in time Jiren, Broly, and Frieza are not TOO MUCH stronger than Goku and Vegeta physically and maybe even power level wise BUT they wield their powers better when USING them?

That's pretty much the ...

If Toppo is saying Jiren surpasses Belmond in power level, then we’re back to step one.


Have a read of my new post. I believe I address all arguements and the scale of power.

This explains why Jiren is still stronger than Gods of destruction and why all the scaling is consistent now.

http ...

Honestly, it’s better to just ignore Broly. He never even does anything! Write him out and what do you lose? Nothing. Toriyama probably has no idea what to make of him.

I want to agree that Broly was totally being ignored in the Moro and Granolah Sagas, Toyotaro either wasn’t allowed to use Broly ...

"We've been pushing our bodies to the limit. So much we're almost as good as them." --> Vegeta isn't necessarily comparing their physical strengths, he's saying the physical training is irrelevant because without the mental training they will fall behind. Viz adds a "in that aspect" that ...

Beating them is not the concern. Vegeta considers himself surpassed by Moro because he is not as strong Moro but almost as strong as him, but he also is "capable" of using this relaxed technique widening that gap.


Beating them is the concern. Vegeta says he was outclassed every time. And he ...

If you recall, Planet Moro completely absorbes MUI Goku's power, the completely absorbed SSB Gokus power when they tried to power him up again. Then Moro proceeds to absorb energy from everyone on the planet for an extended time period.

Goku only defeats this Endgame Planet Moro (who absorbed ...

Actually it is stated all of them Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Frieza are all stronger than Goku and Vegeta. And these guys also have their relaxed state amp


But Goku straight up defeated Moro. He's not stronger than anyone.


We know Moro and Jiren cannot be stronger than them. Broly is up ...

Pretty much. After Goku uses SS3, Trunks says that Black still felt stronger. So Black definitely didn't go all-out against SS2 Goku. The manga is even clearer in that regard, Trunks' improved SS2 was just as strong as Goku's SS3, and he was still no match against Black.


The problem is ...

So

Goku Black (Post Goku) >>>>>>>> Goku Black (FP in the future before) >= Goku Black (End of fight) >= SSJ2 Goku (FP) ~ SSJ3 Goku (Suppressed vs Trunks)


This doesn't have anything to do with your post, but I am curious on your opinion on the Vegeta statement in the manga. I have got them ...