Kanzenshuu

Another reason Blue Goku vs. Gas isn't a good barometer is that Gas was actively holding back against Goku, deliberately testing and toying with him because he's Bardock's son. He suggested as much himself, and also made quick work of the much stronger Granolah moments prior.

There's a whole ...

He says he's grown stronger, which he did. Which is all I referenced -- the common trope of Saiyans increasing in battle strength during a fight. Which is the only logical explanation for Goku's performance in Blue, defensive or not.

Your emphasis on "drastic" is undermined by the narrative ...

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

Not a great example, given that's exaggerating what ...

I think Neva had a huge potential to be the central figure of the “training” arc of the series, he could've been Daima's equivalent to what Roshi-Karin-Kamisama-Kaio-Beerus-Whis-Merus were for Goku.

Apologies, I just noticed your post.

I actually appreciate that Neva was a bystander, since that ...

Regarding Gotenks, I'm not sure that fusion in general counts. If it did, it's hard to see how Goku can be called #1 in a world where the man himself can fuse into a new being whenever, wherever.

But it's true that Super Saiyan 3 isn't used by Gotenks in most versions of the story. The sole ...

But since you mentioned it, Daima throws all this logic in the bin. The characters are as strong as they're needed to be and "they trained" is enough of an excuse.
Daima follows the same logic as Goku introducing Super Saiyan 3. The Saiyans did some intense training of some kind in the lead-up to ...

A different status quo? The status quo hasn't changed since the Androids/Cell, my guy.

Every time the Saiyans grew significantly stronger after Frieza, it was either by obtaining additional transformations or improving upon the current ones (i.e. Super Saiyan) independently with new training ...

He doesn’t have a chart of which character had a “X” form that surpasses “Y” in any given situation.

While this is true, I would maintain that Toriyama (or to a lesser extent, Toyotaro) was about as consistent as you can/should expect a long-running comic author to reasonably be. These are all ...

To be fair, the original DA post says it was just for fun and that they "resemble" those people rather than being based on them. Though I'm more surprised they didn't use the ultra-low-hanging Leo DiCaprio fruit for Trunks, lol

Another thing I forgot to mention is that Vegeta pre rage boost had better performance against Beerus than Gohan. Guy held his own for a few seconds and even dodged a few of Beerus's punches without immediately going lights-out. Gohan accomplishes jack shit and then gets oneshot.

It beggars belief ...

That just means SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan were closer than base Goku and 100% Freeza.
Again, this is pedantic at best and mathematically inconceivable at worst. If there's any wiggle room at all, it's almost too small for the assumption you're wanting to rely on.

Utterly massive difference ...

We don’t know how exactly Goku compared to Freeza.

Doesn't matter. That's a pedantic argument.

Beerus assessed base Goku and thought he didn't measure up to Frieza; that much is clear-cut, and I don't really care if people still have a problem with it. If he's still not stronger than Frieza by ...

^ That's also why I tend to call Toriyama a master of improvisation. His ability to write on the fly while keeping the story entertaining and purposeful is second to none in his craft. Other shonen mangaka have tried it, and it typically never works out.

I'm still curious as to whether there was ...

I didn't even know this thread existed. I thought this subforum was centered more on in-universe perspectives exclusively, which I guess is why I rarely visit it, though literary topics of this nature pique my interest. More to talk about and unpack.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Vegeta's ...

What comments? Beerus is specifically only interest in Goku and doesn’t even care about Gotenks and Gohan. Even Vegeta was more entertaining (though I doubt that Vegeta is stronger than the half bloods).

Well, comparing Namek Frieza favorably to base Goku is the main culprit. You can extrapolate ...

Heck, in this same thread, you have people arguing that Vegeta from GT is a downgrade because "he became a boring family man."

That's not what I said.

GT Vegeta isn't boring because he's a family man. He's boring because the series reduces him to a family man at the expense of who he is as an ...

I don't think anyone in this thread was disputing that Dragon Ball has a history of sexism. I feel there's a wealth of perfectly valid critiques to be made on that topic, some of which I've touched on myself, though I'm in agreement with Bernardo this can vary enough that, depending on the exact ...

Maybe don't start your counter-post by acting like a pseudo-intellectual little shit, immediately attacking, dismissing and invalidating a woman's perspective, and maybe women will actually respect you and believe you're debating in good faith and listen to you, and not immediately disregard ...

Wild that this has to be explained, but...

Vegeta is introduced as a villain. The story has him doing things the protagonists find morally reprehensible, and he's clearly not a character you're supposed to sympathize with or relate to. Then, as the series progresses, you can see small glimpses of ...

I would argue the ideal editor helps the author refine their own storytelling instincts and confidence moving forward, even when they're no longer closely collaborating. Or as Torishima describes it, "unlocking the artist's potential".

Dragon Ball is a clear upgrade from Dragon Boy , but some of my ...