Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

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VegettoEX
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Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:11 am

Episode #0204 (download MP3) (rss feed)
65:13; 64 kbps, mono; 29.8 MB

Episode #0204! VegettoEX, Meri, and Jeff dig into Volume 32 in our "Manga Review of Awesomeness". Characters are doing stupid things all around, resulting in Cell reaching his perfect form. Is the fantastic artwork enough to overcome some of the story's pitfalls? A tiny bit of news, January's single upcoming release, and a batch of your great e-mails round out the episode. Referenced sites:
Go ahead and grab it. Big thanks to godofchaos for hosting the never-thought-we'd-get-there *two-hundred-four* episodes, now.

Yep, we streamed this one live earlier this week. Yep, I've got the darn thing all ready to go right after midnight on Sunday. Crazy, I tell you! CRAZY!

w0rd.
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Azure
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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by Azure » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:25 am

I really enjoyed this episode, I did wonder for quite some time if Piccolo spoke that way :lol:

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by Son Wukong » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:12 pm

Feels like AGES ago you guys did this awesomeness. So glad there is little/no news on merchandise coming out. Kinda got sick and tired of getting the fact that I have no money rubbed in my faces each week :?

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by Tanooki Kuribo » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:16 pm

I really wanted to watch the live stream but, I had work. :(

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by Herms » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:10 pm

I guess I should have explained what with the hair thing a bit better. Basically, in Viz Vegeta makes it sound like a pure Saiyans’ hair simply never grows, meaning for instance that if you gave them a buzz cut, it would never grow out again. The original line didn’t really imply this, so I counted it as a slight change. I still probably wouldn’t have bothered mentioning it if not for Toriyama contradicting the original line in the SEG.

With these Viz-ism notes, I originally took them with the intent of chronicling every single difference between Viz and the Japanese volumes, and of having a star rating on each one to indicate the degree of the change, so that people who wanted to could just skip past the minor stuff and read about the major changes. I like nitpicking because I find inexplicable changes and dialogue that don’t make sense amusing, no matter how minor, but I know not everyone cares about this stuff and I don’t want people thinking that I’m condemning Viz for making any sort of change. I’m not angry about this stuff, I just mostly find it odd or funny. So that’s why I’ve got some of this minor stuff in my notes. And like I said, there wasn’t really anything major this volume, so it was all this small stuff this time. But there’s some major stuff coming up in the next few volumes.

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by sailorspazz » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:17 pm

On the discussion about Vegeta not knowing about Trunks' power, maybe I'm just not remembering all of the details, but was it actually ever stated by Vegeta himself that he didn't know about Trunks' transformation? It seemed like Trunks assumed that Vegeta didn't know about it, because he thought he would be pissed off about it if he did, but I think it's likely that Vegeta could sense the increase in his power while they were in the Room of Spirit and Time, but since he already knew that that form had its drawbacks, he just dismissed it as not being a threat to his greatness. Trunks made tons of assumptions that turned out to be wrong, so this could have just been another one of them.

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by penguintruth » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:14 am

Vegeta was just being Vegeta. I think Goku would have seriously been tempted to do the same. I think the only difference is that Goku wouldn't have liked that Cell has to absorb the other androids, essentially killing them, and these androids never killed anyone, save for Dr. Gero.

Kuririn, on the other hand, let 18 live because she kissed him once, on the cheek. Jeez.

I really liked Gohan's first SSJ transformation in the anime, as he blocks Goku's Kamehameha. That was a great improvement, to me, from the manga.

As far as complacency on what fans will accept, I think a lot of English dub fans are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by Dogasu » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:01 am

I liked that reference to the "counter" and the Cell Jrs. That's still one of my favorite AMVs after all these years.

As for Vegeta being stupid...well, true. But at the same time...if he hadn't allowed Cell to reach his perfect form, everyone could have defeated Cell as-is. And then they wouldn't have had any reason to undergo that extensive training they did before the Cell Games. Which means that when Babidi inevitably appears on the scene, the Z-Senshi would have had absolutely *no* chance against Boo.

So I guess there's a silver lining to Vegeta's stupidity.

Also, sorry to hear you didn't like the Pokemon Jirachi movie. It's not *my* favorite, but I still found it enjoyable. Ah well.

Also, Final Fantasy XIII is a lot of fun. It's very different from the other games in the series, something that seems to be turning people away, but if you come into the game with an open mind you should find something to enjoy.

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:35 am

Don't misunderstand me. I absolutely believe that what both characters (especially Vegeta) did were completely in-character and expected of them.

That doesn't make the pain of watching someone stand around and be a moron any less... well... painful :P.
penguintruth wrote:I really liked Gohan's first SSJ transformation in the anime, as he blocks Goku's Kamehameha. That was a great improvement, to me, from the manga.
I'm with ya'. I totally get Meri's perspective of having it, in the manga, actually not be a "big deal" for once... but I thought that it was so well-done in the TV version that I'll give it a slide. I think his type of transformation catalyst makes sense for him as a character, too -- everything about Gohan is just getting himself psyched up and mentally overwhelmed from an internal perspective, it would seem. Threats to other characters make him upset, sure, but there's a lot of self-control issues that he's always had that continue to build up more and more over the course of this story line. It comes in huge when Cell fights him and Gohan refuses to fight back for a while, insisting that he doesn't want to lose control, blah blah blah. He's incredibly self-aware, and that ties into his transformations more than "friend goes boom" or "I wish I was better than someone" or "mentor lies in puddle".
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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by Maphisto86 » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:42 pm

VegettoEX wrote:He's incredibly self-aware, and that ties into his transformations more than "friend goes boom" or "I wish I was better than someone" or "mentor lies in puddle".
:lol:

Seriously though, I am glad to hear you appreciate Gohan for who he is. I totally agree with Penguintruth on that scene in the anime. It was one of the most powerful character moments in the Cell arc as depicted on the television series. Really sums up Gohan's journey up until then and shows that he did regret the mistakes of his youth and furthermore, how much he cares for those around him and his sense of worth. Really great stuff.

Something about the idea of shutting down the androids made me think. Even if they managed to shut down 16, 17 and 18, how would that keep Cell from being perfect. A quick scene in the anime even poses this "what if". I forget whether Bulma was aware at the time of Cell's attempt to become "perfect", but either or it seems like an iffy plan to begin with. I mean they might have been able to destroy Eighteen if Kuririn went through with it and/or by powering her down, Cell would not be able to harness her energy and transform. Both the manga and anime seem to leave this hanging from what I remember. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by Herms » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:08 pm

Maphisto86 wrote:Something about the idea of shutting down the androids made me think. Even if they managed to shut down 16, 17 and 18, how would that keep Cell from being perfect. A quick scene in the anime even poses this "what if". I forget whether Bulma was aware at the time of Cell's attempt to become "perfect", but either or it seems like an iffy plan to begin with. I mean they might have been able to destroy Eighteen if Kuririn went through with it and/or by powering her down, Cell would not be able to harness her energy and transform. Both the manga and anime seem to leave this hanging from what I remember. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Bulma tells Kuririn that if the androids are shut down, they can then be easilly destroyed. Kuririn then uneasily thinks over the idea of having to destroy No.18. Presumably destroying them would also destroy whatever it was inside them that Cell needed to become complete.

So regarding the issue of multiple Super Saiyans and higher levels of Super Saiyan versus the original idea of a single, all-powerful Super Saiyan, I personally have no problem with the way things play out in this regard during the post-Freeza portion of the series. I guess it's mostly because I always found the original Super Saiyan concept to be extremely boring. There's just nothing to it: the legend says that once in 1,000 years, a Super Saiyan will appear and will be the strongest warrior in the universe. Why once every 1,000 years? No reason. Why exactly is the Super Saiyan stronger than anyone else? No reason. It's all just part of “the legend”, but it's never explained how this legend started, why it should be believed, or what forces or mechanism underlies it. So since there's never any good reason given for why the Super Saiyan is all-powerful and one of a kind, it doesn't bug me at all when multiple Super Saiyans pop up and new characters and forms stronger than the original Super Saiyan are introduced. Maybe the legend says this shouldn't be so, but legends are pretty much always wrong to some degree anyway.

What I like about the multiple Super Saiyans and higher Super Saiyan forms is that, while they still never actually explain why Super Saiyan forms exist in the first place, they at least demystify the concept enough that it doesn't need an explanation quite so much. That is, even if the actual mechanism behind the transformation is never explained in the same way Vegeta explains the Oozaru transformation, we at least get some specific rules and requirements for the transformation. And the presence of characters who are as strong or stronger than Super Saiyans takes away some of the need to explain what makes them so strong: if it were the only way to gain that degree of power, is would demand some sort of explanation, but when it's shown as one of several ways to do so, then you can at least chock it up as being part of the general inexplicable laws of the DB world. Like if there were only one really tall person ever shown walking around DB Earth, that would require some sort of explanation, but since we see lots of super tall people, we can just write it off as the way DB Earth is (not that an explanation wouldn't be nice).

Besides, I think a form that anyone can work towards achieving, and can be experimented with and improved upon, is much more interesting than one that simply “appears” in some destined individual when the stars happen to be right and is the be-all and end-all of power, end of story. I really dislike vague ideas of “destiny” as a plot device (which I would file the Super Saiyan legend under), so I'm glad the series moved away from that sort of thing after the Freeza arc (well, unless you count Broli). And it was never much of a factor before Freeza either. The only prior thing like that I can think of is Uranai Baba predicting that Goku would one day save the world, though this was more a simple prediction of the future than anything having to do with ideas of destiny or legends being fulfilled, and at any rate it wasn't focused on very much at all.

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Re: Episode #0204 (10 January 2010)

Post by caejones » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:33 pm

sailorspazz wrote:On the discussion about Vegeta not knowing about Trunks' power, maybe I'm just not remembering all of the details, but was it actually ever stated by Vegeta himself that he didn't know about Trunks' transformation? It seemed like Trunks assumed that Vegeta didn't know about it, because he thought he would be pissed off about it if he did, but I think it's likely that Vegeta could sense the increase in his power while they were in the Room of Spirit and Time, but since he already knew that that form had its drawbacks, he just dismissed it as not being a threat to his greatness. Trunks made tons of assumptions that turned out to be wrong, so this could have just been another one of them.
I think the FUNi dub stated as much... so I always kinda bought it, since it makes sense, and kinda makes Vegeta look a little smarter than he demonstrates at this point (whatever it's worth. XD ).

Gohan's been so uninvolved since the Ginyu battle that his sudden return to the spotlight here leaves me not so sure what to think, but I suppose I'll wait until next volume to think on that further. :?

Maybe it's because I've been thinking of this part of the series pretty negatively lately, but once again the Manga Review of Awesomeness made me like it more than I thought I did, so yay again. :)
And I only after listening realized that after 17 and 18 emerge, I kinda stopped caring about Trunks... and this was really the major volume for Trunks' character arc, so yay, I like (future) Trunks more now. XD

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